OSAS The Truth

JLB said:

Here is what God's word says -

if indeed you continue in the faith

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23


If you continue in the faith.

Click to expand...

Please explain what the result is of continuing in the faith in this passage. Just because you found a phrase "continue in the faith" means nothing until you understand what it results in.

You haven't yet quoted Acts 14:22 in which Paul and Barnabas encouraged the disciples to "remain true to the faith". Acts 14:22 (NIV)

OSAS believes there is no possibility of a person departing the living God, of falling away from the faith, or renouncing Christ or serving other gods later on in their life.

Click to expand...

Please quite stating such falsehoods. I've always acknowledged the possibility of true believers ceasing to believe. What you are citing is the erroneous view of Calvinists and their doctrine of perseverance.

Jesus said those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Click to expand...

Hello. May I suggest that you check the context there? Which is the Tribulation, which has nothing to do with believers of all generations.

If you have faith in Christ, you have the substance of the salvation you are hoping for, right now.

Click to expand...

And because God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable, those who have believed will ALWAYS have eternal life.

But here's the straight truth from Scripture, for those who are open to truth.

1. Christ's imputed righteousness is a gift to believers. Rom 5:15,17
2. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
3. The gift of eternal life comes directly from God. 1 Jn 5:11
4. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

You've not refuted any of this. What has been refuted is your notion of present tense belief. It isn't found in Scripture.

JLB said:

These scriptures as well as the others form the whole counsel of God, not just the ones we like.

You need to learn to accept all of God's word, not just the "milk" of the word.JLB

Click to expand...

Yet, this is exactly your problem. I've provided the evidence that one's salvation is irrevocable, yet you continue to cherry pick verses that you think support your notion, but they don't. Esp given Rom 11:29 which tells us clearly that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You've continued to ignore that verse. In an earlier post, you cited John 4:14 about the spring of water welling up to eternal life, yet you ignore 5:24 where Jesus plainly says that those who believe HAVE eternal life. It isn't something that comes along later, as you insinuated in your post.

You need to learn to accept all of God's Word. Only then will you realize that once saved, never to face the Lake of Fire.

smaller said:

My understanding is from the Word. I take no interest in blind speculations.

Click to expand...

Not if you're a Calvinist. If you're a Calvinist, your teacher is Calvin.

Judas was a devil. When Jesus says 'a devil' he is referring to the Devil's offspring. Judas was one - one of Satan's offspring - his seed.

MarkT said:

Not if you're a Calvinist. If you're a Calvinist, your teacher is Calvin.

Click to expand...

I am a determinist. Yes. But that doesn't make me a Calvinist by any stretch.

Judas was a devil. When Jesus says 'a devil' he is referring to the Devil's offspring. Judas was one - one of Satan's offspring - his seed.

Click to expand...

Only if we disregard the fact that Satan entered Judas does Judas become a 'stand alone' devil. I don't want to side track the subject matter of the thread, but the understanding that people or Israelites in Judas' case are devils brings a flood of conflict that can't be theologically resolved. Devils are devils. People are not devils. Simple solid premise. Jesus never came to save any devil.

smaller said:

Not true. The difficulty is that the non-OSAS camps believe that the statements outlining the very REAL matters of hindering faith or falling in this present life equate to eternal damnation.

That is where the rift in the camps resides.

Click to expand...

There is no rift, there is only believing what is written in the scriptures.

OSAS doctrines teaches the Heresy of believing in Christ for salvation, then living an unrighteous unholy lifestyle that is able to turn from CHRIST to other gods ( idolatry), live an immoral homosexual lifestyle, never repent and still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

Pure false doctrine that is taught by postmodernism.


JLB

JLB said:

There is no rift, there is only believing what is written in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

Well of course there is a rift. It's similar in nature to other rifts that run along the same fault lines: Law vs. Grace. Freewill vs. Determinism. These are big camps containing big rifts between the partakers.

OSAS doctrines teaches the Heresy of believing in Christ for salvation,

Click to expand...

Well let's not hope that is deemed a heresy.

then living an unrighteous unholy lifestyle

Click to expand...

Perhaps you might describe how Paul's statement of God saving "sinners of whom I am chief" plays into your sights.

that is able to turn from CHRIST to other gods ( idolatry), live an immoral homosexual lifestyle, never repent and still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

Click to expand...

None become sinless after belief. And I have met zero believers who end up worshipping idols, even though they may have departed much of what present day christianity presents them.

Pure false doctrine that is taught by postmodernism.

JLB

Click to expand...

There hasn't been one OSAS adherent here who has claimed that a person can not be taken by unbeliefs to some degree or even become again a blinded slave. What that means deserves close inspections. That still doesn't mean Christ left them as you propose. Many believers I know go through various forms of trials and tribulations including walking away. From what did they walk away is always a question that should be addressed first before proclaiming any such as lost. There is no use even stepping on to that ground.

We are not requested to lay any stumbling blocks in front of anyone.

Non-OSAS is a perpetual stumbling block laid out by every proponent.

FreeGrace said:

You haven't yet quoted Acts 14:22 in which Paul and Barnabas encouraged the disciples to "remain true to the faith". Acts 14:22 (NIV)


Please quite stating such falsehoods. I've always acknowledged the possibility of true believers ceasing to believe. What you are citing is the erroneous view of Calvinists and their doctrine of perseverance.


Hello. May I suggest that you check the context there? Which is the Tribulation, which has nothing to do with believers of all generations.


And because God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable, those who have believed will ALWAYS have eternal life.

But here's the straight truth from Scripture, for those who are open to truth.

1. Christ's imputed righteousness is a gift to believers. Rom 5:15,17
2. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
3. The gift of eternal life comes directly from God. 1 Jn 5:11
4. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

You've not refuted any of this. What has been refuted is your notion of present tense belief. It isn't found in Scripture.

Click to expand...

Please explain what the result is of continuing in the faith in this passage. Just because you found a phrase "continue in the faith" means nothing until you understand what it results in.

Click to expand...

yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.

You were alienated from God, yet He has now reconciled IF...


JLB

smaller said:

Well of course there is a rift. It's similar in nature to other rifts that run along the same fault lines: Law vs. Grace. Freewill vs. Determinism. These are big camps containing big rifts between the partakers.

None become sinless after belief. And I have met zero believers who end up worshipping idols, even though they may have departed much of what present day christianity presents them.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you might describe how Paul's statement of God saving "sinners of whom I am chief" plays into your sights.

Click to expand...

Here is what Paul said about himself.

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Here is the context continuing in Chapter 10 -

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

JLB

JLB said:

Here is what Paul said about himself.

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Here is the context continuing in Chapter 10 -

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

JLB

Click to expand...

In your particular slant on non-OSAS, the standard of which seems to be becoming sinless, I would propose that such a standard was never raised for any of us, and point to Paul's own description of himself as a denial of such impositions to be saved.

None make themselves sinless in order to be saved. Being less of a sinner isn't a standard either. But that seems to be the direction of where your claims reside.

No believer wants to be captured by sin, but the fact of lying about being a factual sinner is a form of mental captivity itself, just as bad as any sin there is.

smaller said:

I am a determinist. Yes. But that doesn't make me a Calvinist by any stretch.

Click to expand...

From Wikipedia: Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestinedto happen, by a monotheisticdeity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

So, if not a Calvinist, then Jewish or Muslim then. Which one?

btw, since you do claim Christianity, the definition of determinism has determined that you are a Calvinist. Even though you weren't aware of that.

JLB said:

OSAS doctrines teaches the Heresy of believing in Christ for salvation, then living an unrighteous unholy lifestyle that is able to turn from CHRIST to other gods ( idolatry), live an immoral homosexual lifestyle, never repent and still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. OSAS doctrine never teaches anyone to "live an unrighteous unholy lifestyle…".

What is taught is that every child of God is eternally secure. AND, those who are rebellious, disobedient, etc, are warned of facing severe temporal discipline, and loss of significant eternal rewards.

Pure false doctrine that is taught by postmodernism.JLB

Click to expand...

Rom 11:29 isn't postmodernism by any stretch. God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

I asked this:
"Please explain what the result is of continuing in the faith in this passage. Just because you found a phrase "continue in the faith" means nothing until you understand what it results in."

JLB said:

yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.

You were alienated from God, yet He has now reconciled IF...JLB

Click to expand...

And you didn't answer. Again.

JLB said:

Here is what Paul said about himself.

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Here is the context continuing in Chapter 10 -

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

JLB

Click to expand...

Where in this passage do you find any warning about loss of salvation? Please advise.

FreeGrace said:

From Wikipedia: Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestinedto happen, by a monotheisticdeity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

So, if not a Calvinist, then Jewish or Muslim then. Which one?

Click to expand...

Jewish or Muslim? Please. If you claim Calvinism is the only form of christian determinism there is, I'd only suggest you impose non-existing filters on the arena.

btw, since you do claim Christianity, the definition of determinism has determined that you are a Calvinist. Even though you weren't aware of that.

Click to expand...

I accept 'some' of the principles of the Calvinist structure but do not consider that structure to be the sole arbiter of any and all forms of Christian determinism.

As you know the field is considerably broader than just that. Just as I might find it equally interesting that a freewiller such as yourself ascribes to OSAS, as that is a bit unusual as well. (thought I picked that up from your posts earlier)

smaller said:

I am a determinist. Yes. But that doesn't make me a Calvinist by any stretch.


Only if we disregard the fact that Satan entered Judas does Judas become a 'stand alone' devil. I don't want to side track the subject matter of the thread, but the understanding that people or Israelites in Judas' case are devils brings a flood of conflict that can't be theologically resolved. Devils are devils. People are not devils. Simple solid premise. Jesus never came to save any devil.

Click to expand...

People aren't devils? Those people who are beheading people in Syria are devils. They are of their father the devil, and their will is to do their father's desire. Like father, like son. The devil was a murderer from the begin; his sons share his nature.

MarkT said:

People aren't devils? Those people who are beheading people in Syria are devils. They are of their father the devil, and their will is to do their father's desire. Like father, like son. The devil was a murderer from the begin; his sons share his nature.

Click to expand...

No more than Paul being a blinded slave of the devil prior to his own conversion. Saul was not a devil nor was Judas, Peter or the people you try to make devils of in the above. Devils are devils. They are NOT people.

JLB said:

yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.

You were alienated from God, yet He has now reconciled IF...

Click to expand...

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel . . ." (Col 1:23 KJV).

Col 1:23 in not talking about continuing in the faith vs. leaving the faith; but rather it is talking about the manner
in which that faith is lived out; the manner being "grounded", "settled", and "not moved".

Reconciliation and peace with God is not an "if" for anyone born from above; it is a one-time event having continuing results; it is permanent legal standing once entered into.


- - -

You do not understand 'if' statements and 'subjunctives' as they are used in the Greek language.

If you were to study those two things, and how the Holy Spirit employs the Greek language, it would broaden your perception. At a minimum, it would help you to understand your opponent's position.

Gregg said:

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel . . ." (Col 1:23 KJV).

Col 1:23 in not talking about continuing in the faith vs. leaving the faith; but rather it is talking about the manner
in which that faith is lived out; the manner being "grounded", "settled", and "not moved".

Reconciliation and peace with God is not an "if" for anyone born from above; it is a one-time event having continuing results; it is permanent legal standing once entered into.

If you can not grasp this,
you have in your person
another gospel not based upon
the work of God in Christ.​

- - -

You do not understand 'if' statements and 'subjunctives' as they are used in the Greek language.

If you were to study those two things, and how the Holy Spirit employs the Greek language, it would broaden your perception. At a minimum, it would help you to understand your opponent's position.

Click to expand...

The work of Christ and the benefits to us, from His work of the cross is accomplished by believing.

If a person believes for a while, then no longer believes, they have become an unbeliever.

Unbelievers are not promised eternal life, only believers.

OSAS teaches "another" Gospel, one that has unbelievers saved along with the faithful believers.


JLB

smaller said:

Jewish or Muslim? Please. If you claim Calvinism is the only form of christian determinism there is, I'd only suggest you impose non-existing filters on the arena.

I accept 'some' of the principles of the Calvinist structure but do not consider that structure to be the sole arbiter of any and all forms of Christian determinism.

As you know the field is considerably broader than just that.

Click to expand...

Please cite the other structures that hold to determinism that is not Calvinist.

Just as I might find it equally interesting that a freewiller such as yourself ascribes to OSAS, as that is a bit unusual as well. (thought I picked that up from your posts earlier)

Click to expand...

It's actually not all that unusual. Maybe you're just not as aware of the field as you think you are.

FreeGrace said:

Where in this passage do you find any warning about loss of salvation? Please advise.

Click to expand...

Here is a specific verse within the whole warning of Paul.


And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 1 Corinthians 10:7


Paul, writing to the CHRISTIANS at Corinth, warns them, do not BECOME idolaters, as were some of them.

Just so you will know the fate of idolaters, I will list that for you as well.


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire...


JLB