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Jim Parker said:
In response to the very strong protest of his very disgruntled followers, Mohammad came to the realization that it really wasn't the angel Gabriel but Satan who had disguised himself and deceived him. ("The devil made me do it!") That revelation enabled Mohammad to correct his "error" and retain his control over his army, over Mecca and over his income.
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Sinthesis said:
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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th1b.taylor said:
Once my life moto... transfered on salvation to, "The LORD is my Shepard and I shall not want.
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One way to look at it is Muhammad was willing to admit Satan had fooled him about the 'satanic verses' when it served to preserve his authority. However, Muhammad would never be willing to admit that Satan had fooled him about the rest of the Quran, possibly, partially, for the reason that he could not just blame Satan, but would have to bare some of the responsibility himself. Shame on Muhammad.
 
kiwidan said:
Because its a religion of peace. Thats why the middle east is a killing field of islam vs islam,
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And we can say that as Christians, because Europe has never been like that...


StoveBolts said:
What about the crusades? What about all the oppression Christianity imposed upon Europe in the Middle Ages? What about the Salem witch hunts? What about God hates fags aka the Westboro Baptist?
Have you visited the Bible Belt? If your not a member of "our" denomination, your not a Christian

My point isn't to smear Christianity any more than it is to protect the Muslim faith. My point is to show that any religion can become divided against what it deems secular and what it seems heretical within its own ranks.

I believe this tendency is a tribal human tendency and isn't isolated to any single religion

In conclusion, we Christians have to clean our own house before we can tell others how to clean ours. Jesus even said we ought to pull the log out of our own eye before we try to take the speck from our brothers eye. The Church is split among too many denominations and Jesus said the world would know us through our unity. Why not work on that, and maybe it will catch the eye of others seeking the same peace, and we can become great fishers of men like God intended for us
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Post of the day.
 
The Crusaders were unsaved guys that tried to capture Jerusalem and failed..
 
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Barbarian said:
Pot, kettle. The Muslims do the same thing. Human nature.
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But not true when any man or woman follows their Creator. And one will never justify the other and ONE WILL NEVER POSTULATE THAT IT MIGHT WHEN THEY FOLLOW THE SAVIOUR! And in spite of anything any Common Man, including the Common Human Being pretending he is deified, the Pope, might say or try to do to the Word of God, the Followers of Muhammad are not following God and that leave, but one, Spiritual Leader, the Devil!
 
Barbarian said:
And we can say that as Christians, because Europe has never been like that...
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There were the wars of the reformation that lasted about 100 years.
Shia and Suni have been killing each other since Mohammad died.
So, yes, "Christian" Europe had a similar episode and then got over it.
Muslims have been at it for well over 1000 years and it continues unabated.

So, no, Christians are not the same.
 
Jim Parker said:
There were the wars of the reformation that lasted about 100 years.
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And WWI, and the Holocaust. Horrible things. All humans are prone to this. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other (and sometimes people of other faiths) ever since the reformation.

Shia and Suni have been killing each other since Mohammad died.
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Sometimes they don't even think of each other as "real Muslims." Imagine that.

So, yes, "Christian" Europe had a similar episode and then got over it.
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Except for that little relapse in the 1940s.

Muslims have been at it for well over 1000 years and it continues unabated.
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And the funny thing is, they only want to talk about the times Christians have done it. Silly, aren't they?
 
Barbarian said:
And WWI, and the Holocaust. Horrible things. All humans are prone to this. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other (and sometimes people of other faiths) ever since the reformation.
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You are ignoring the facts and the context of his post, why do you continue to prove yourself untrustworthy? Don't do that to yourself.
 
Barbarian said:
And WWI, and the Holocaust. Horrible things.
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Neither WW1 not the Holocaust was commanded by a "holy book" as the Koran commands holy war.
Barbarian said:
Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other (and sometimes people of other faiths) ever since the reformation.
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Their murderous behavior is not commanded by the Bible as is the behavior of the Muslims commanded by their Koran.
Barbarian said:
Sometimes they don't even think of each other as "real Muslims." Imagine that.
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Just like way too many protestants don't even think Catholics are Christians. But, since the end of the wars of the reformation, there hasn't been a general open season on each other.
Barbarian said:
Except for that little relapse in the 1940s.
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WW2 had nothing to do with religion. It was a war of ideology. And the communists continued to promote murder, mayhem and revolution around the world for another 50 years or so.
And it wasn't Christians killing Jews, slaves, communists, homosexuals, etc.; it was Nazis who had sworn allegiance to the insane Adolf Hitler. That is not a correlation to fundamentalist Muslims doing what the Koran teaches and waging holy war against all "infidels".
Barbarian said:
And the funny thing is, they only want to talk about the times Christians have done it. Silly, aren't they?
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Not really. Suckers fall for that line all the time.That's why ignorant people try to compare the Crusades to the 1400 year old holy war and use it as an excuse to be thaaaaaaler-ent and in-klooooo-sive toward Muslims as they murder, rape, behead, burn, any promote general mayhem wherever they go.

That's why ignorant people buy the story that the "Palestinian people" are an identifiable "nation" who have been in "Palestine" for centuries upon centuries. In fact, they were invented in 1967 when the Jews took the "West Bank" from Jordan who had annexed it, and Jordan wouldn't let their Jordanian citizens cross the river in to Jordan, thereby forcing them to remain in the "west bank" where they could carry out terrorist attacks against Israel and get the media to blame Israel.
 
Actually, as the Nazis pointed out at Nuremburg, most of what they had done to the Jews, was taken from the writing of Martin Luther. The "No true Scotsman" argument is often used by Muslims as well. But the fact is, no group is immune to that kind of sin.
 
Barbarian said:
...as the Nazis pointed out at Nuremburg,
most of what they had done to the Jews, was taken from the writing of Martin Luther.
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The excuses that war criminals came up with at the Nürnberg trials to shift the blame to anyone but themselves is proof of absolutely nothing except your willingness to swallow such bilge.

What they did to the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, physically and mentally deficient, and anyone else they didn't like was taken from the rantings of Adolf Hitler.
I don't understand why liberals always try to put the blame on something or someone other than the actual source and deny the obvious.
The "No true Scotsman" argument is often used by Muslims as well. But the fact is, no group is immune to that kind of sin.
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That is true but deceptively so. The book which the Christians hold to be the word of God and use to instruct them on how to be a Christian does not tell them to go and slaughter non-Christians. The book which the Muslims hold to be the word of God and use to instruct them on how to be a Muslim does tell them to go and kill non-Muslims.

Why do you squiggle, squirm and dance so wildly to avoid that truth?
Are you afraid that someone will call you an "Islamophobe" for accepting the facts?
 
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Jim Parker said:
Just like way too many protestants don't even think Catholics are Christians. But, since the end of the wars of the reformation, there hasn't been a general open season on each other.
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Barb,
People, extremists above and beyond Biblical Truth, are most like part of the 98% of the catholic Church (Not Catholic Church but the catholic) that hear Jesus tell them to go away because He never knew them. I have friends that are Catholic that rely on the Pope and their Local Priest to forgive their sins, conclusion; they are not saved! I have three Catholic friends I will bet everything I own to be saved and they do not go to Confession for forgiveness but do that where ever they are when they feel the need to repent. Rough percentage wise, there are no more Protestants going to Heaven than there are Catholics. Better than ninety-eight percent of both groups together are going to Hell except they repent.
 
Barbarian said:
Actually, as the Nazis pointed out at Nuremburg, most of what they had done to the Jews, was taken from the writing of Martin Luther. The "No true Scotsman" argument is often used by Muslims as well. But the fact is, no group is immune to that kind of sin.
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Except they fully rely on God and stop sinning.
 
Jim Parker said:
The excuses that war criminals came up with at the Nürnberg trials to shift the blame to anyone but themselves is proof of absolutely nothing except your willingness to swallow such bilge.

What they did to the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, physically and mentally deficient, and anyone else they didn't like was taken from the rantings of Adolf Hitler.
I don't understand why liberals always try to put the blame on something or someone other than the actual source and deny the obvious.
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Yes and I have not read where Luthor, the most hated of the Catholics, tried to assume the position of God and to order the extermination of anyone.
 
th1b.taylor said:
I have friends that are Catholic that rely on the Pope and their Local Priest to forgive their sins, conclusion; they are not saved!
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You misunderstand.
It is the priest's job to provide a means for people to take a critical look at themselves and to openly confess to someone that they have sinned and desire to repent. It also affords an opportunity for the person to receive mentoring from someone who is trained to assist people in their Christian walk.

Jesus specifically gave his disciples the authority to forgive sin.
Jhn 20:23 (RSV) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.
Confession of sins has been a practice of the church since her earliest days based on the teaching of the apostles.
Jas 5:14 -16 (RSV) Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
1Jo 1:8-9 (RSV) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
In the early days of the Church, people confessed their sin before the congregation. When the numbers of new Christians swelled after the Edict of Milan, it became impossible to do so. There wasn't time for hundreds of people to confess their sin before the congregation so special time was set aside when people could come and confess to a presbyter (priest) and the Sunday service could be conducted without long delays while the congregation heard confessions.

Jesus also told Peter that he was to forgive up to 70 times 7 time a day when someone sinned against him.

So, your conclusion that they are not saved is based on faulty information. That their practice, which dates to the earliest practices of the Church, differs from yours (which doesn't go back more than 500 years) is not evidence of their relationship with God or lack thereof. Whether they fully understand what they're doing or not is anybody's guess. But, we're not saved because we know so much (gnosticism) but because we trust God.

The Pope and the local priest are not your enemies. And even if they were, you are commanded to love them anyway.

th1b.taylor said:
I have three Catholic friends I will bet everything I own to be saved and they do not go to Confession for forgiveness but do that where ever they are when they feel the need to repent.
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And that is what confession is for.
th1b.taylor said:
Rough percentage wise, there are no more Protestants going to Heaven than there are Catholics. Better than ninety-eight percent of both groups together are going to Hell except they repent.
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And won't they be surprised!!! But..but...but.. Lord, I was a DEACON! (boo-hoo-hoo!)
 
pie-man said:
,,,but Jesus mainly warned that the real deception would come from those claiming to speak in his name, i.e. the many peddlers of a Christianity that is not based on his teachings.
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Well we need to be fully aware that Muhammad was conversant with the Old Testament as well as the Gospels. Indeed the Koran is a perversion of the Bible. So in one sense Muhammad can be classified as one of the false prophets which Jesus warned us about. The real danger of the Koran is that it clearly targets Christians and Jews as infidels whose end is damnation. Therefore Radical Islam is nothing else but an outworking of Koranic teachings.
 
Malachi said:
Indeed the Koran is a perversion of the Bible.
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The Koran is generally a rehash of pagan Arabian religions that were practiced at the time of Mohammad and which predated Islam by centuries. It's innovation was that he prescribed monotheism (the worship of the moon god, Allah, only) rather than continuing to worship the pantheon of Arabian, pagan gods whose images, amulets and sacred stones were stored in the Kaaba to which the devotees of the cults would make pilgrimages.
Malachi said:
The real danger of the Koran is that it clearly targets Christians and Jews as infidels whose end is damnation.
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I'd say a greater danger of Islam is that it leads billions of people to be submitted to the demon Allah rather than to God and to be lost eternally. If I am killed because I refuse to deny Christ, I am not in any eternal danger.

iakov the fool
 
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