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salvation and the loss of it

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reba said:
Do you have every gift you were ever given ?
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I think so; don't you? I have been surprised to discover a gift I didn't know I possessed.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God doesn't seem
to be sorry He gave the gift, and I've not seen scripture that convinces that He removes
them from us.
 
dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

If God does not allow man to have "works" for salvation, then why would he allow man to have "works" for keeping salvation?
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Good question. I don't think he does. But works are evidence of regeneration I believe.
 
dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

If God does not allow man to have "works" for salvation, then why would he allow man to have "works" for keeping salvation?
Click to expand...

Salvation is the one gift that keeps on giving, works come from love. Most Christians want to do something for God, but to keep their salvation, hog wash.
We do because we love, we see the need in the world and we address it to the best of our ability. We can't reach the whole world, we are not The savior of the world as an individual. We can do something and we do, I don't have to be told to feed the hundry, I dont need to be told how to reach a lost and dieing world, I can see it.
That's Christianity 101, we reach people and the greatest need in our day is, 'the ministry of reconciliation.' It is really the only ministry we have.
 
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dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

If God does not allow man to have "works" for salvation, then why would he allow man to have "works" for keeping salvation?
Click to expand...
I think it is reasonable to infer that from Scripture.
 
Nope that would be payment . He paid the price.. :)
This topic is a fence for me... seems i hope back and forth .... :shame

Some folks say things like .. Who was he speaking to ( He could be Jesus Peter or Paul) I believe the Scriptures were written to the reader... I do not divide us into groups... Scripture is applicable to all peoples and time.. IMO.
Jesus said :
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'


Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom_9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom_10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I do know this... Growing up in Pentecostal/dispenstaional family we were taught we need be saved over and over... like repenting unto salvation on Sunday night for what ya did Saturday night. :neutral
Putting aside some of that teaching , asking God to open the Scriptures i now KNOW i am, and others, more saved then i grew up believing.. His Grace and His Mercy seem to have no limits.. yet

Can man neglect a His Salvation?
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

What if we turn our backs on faith?..
1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


After pushing 20 years of reading this battle on line .. I am still on that fence... one of the main reasons is the classic line .. Well he was never really saved then

I knew a man a real servant of God .. On his death bed he was praying for salvation.. earnestly praying having had so many years , a life time, of needed to be re-saved.. it was sad to know/understand his doubt.. His doubt was not in the Lord but in failed humanness ... Mom & Dad holding his hand telling Jesus paid the price ..Your salvation is in Him ETC Johnny was so scared.. This kind of story should not be the end of a Christians time on earth..

Good works we do because we are saved..
 
reba said:
Can we jump out of His hand ? Leaving on our own is not being 'plucked'
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If Jesus can lose even one of us, He didn't accomplish the will of our Father.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Of course this is if we can trust Him to do it.)
 
dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

If God does not allow man to have "works" for salvation, then why would he allow man to have "works" for keeping salvation?
Click to expand...

Some might say that even belief itself is a work.

Works neither save you or keep you. Faith, the gift God gives, is how you know God has saved you. Either you have that 'singular' gift - or you do not have it.
 
dirtfarmer here

My belief is when a person receives salvation that they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that we, humans, don't have the ability nor the power to break that seal (Romans 8:35-39). We are told in scripture that we are sealed unto the day of redemption: Ephesians 4:30 " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption:" In all of scripture the only one that I find that has the power to break the seal of the Spirit is Jesus Christ; (Revelation 5:2-5)

What is in question when a believer commits a sins is fellowship. Fellowship has nothing to do with belonging or not belonging to God. We are still in relationship, his heir, with the Father. Relationship has to do with being kin or of the same family, and once that relationship is established, it can't be broken. Fellowship is a different, we belong to the same family, but blessing are what can be hindered, once we are part of that family.
 
dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

My belief is when a person receives salvation that they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that we, humans, don't have the ability nor the power to break that seal (Romans 8:35-39). We are told in scripture that we are sealed unto the day of redemption: Ephesians 4:30 " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption:" In all of scripture the only one that I find that has the power to break the seal of the Spirit is Jesus Christ; (Revelation 5:2-5)

What is in question when a believer commits a sins is fellowship. Fellowship has nothing to do with belonging or not belonging to God. We are still in relationship, his heir, with the Father. Relationship has to do with being kin or of the same family, and once that relationship is established, it can't be broken. Fellowship is a different, we belong to the same family, but blessing are what can be hindered, once we are part of that family.
Click to expand...

That's a good way to put it in my way of seeing salvation.
 
I have not always looked at salvation the way I do now. We all grow and come into different understandings of scripture as time and study goes.
I was taught, as a babe in Christ, you had best live up to a certain standard or else. So the search began, I wanted to know for myself and to be able to have somewhat of an understanding when I spoke.
I do know the different levels that believers understand scripture. Understanding is like a key that unlocks things to us.
One of the reasons basically we will die for what we know. Understanding of the scriptures is God given. We all may be coming from different directions but headed to the same place in God.
Growing, maturing, being used of God, and coming to see Christ, who is our only life.
There are so many things that the lord is doing in His own born again offspring. One of the majors is, teaching an individual what happened to them the moment they believed, and what it means to be a christ-person, Christian. I realize not all of the written word is written directly to you, it is all for you, just not all to you.
Example: if you take all 66 books and try to find the message that fits you-the born again- you will not find it.
If certain areas are not written to you then what do we do with them, life application. I am blessed when reading psalms, proverbs, so on but there is no life in them. Life is only in the Son, the Son that is in you now as a Christian and only life. You do not have life without Christ.
The greatest history lessons are learned from scripture, you see how God, as creator handled people through out the Old Testament. You can not see Him with His Fatherly attributes in the Old Testament, he had them but could not manifest them. There was no one to manifest them to, in other words there were no born-again in the Old Testament. Not until the cross could He be Father to others, besides His only begotten Son. So the difference is the birthing, born again, and seeing Jesus as our life now by that birthing, 1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
 
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dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

My belief is when a person receives salvation that they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and that we, humans, don't have the ability nor the power to break that seal (Romans 8:35-39). We are told in scripture that we are sealed unto the day of redemption: Ephesians 4:30 " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption:" In all of scripture the only one that I find that has the power to break the seal of the Spirit is Jesus Christ; (Revelation 5:2-5)

What is in question when a believer commits a sins is fellowship. Fellowship has nothing to do with belonging or not belonging to God. We are still in relationship, his heir, with the Father. Relationship has to do with being kin or of the same family, and once that relationship is established, it can't be broken. Fellowship is a different, we belong to the same family, but blessing are what can be hindered, once we are part of that family.
Click to expand...

When a person receives Christ, then yes, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Now, we cannot just 'tack on' Romans 8:35-39 to that passage in Ephesians. They are not in the same letter Paul wrote, nor are they speaking of the same thing.

Ephesians states we are sealed 'for' the day of redemption. That is what the word "unto" means.

Again, the seal of Revelation 5 is not the same seal that is spoken of in Ephesians, so we cannot speak of them as the same. Think about it, the scroll in Revelation 5 has its seals broken.

I think there is a misunderstanding of what sin is. Sin is missing the mark, which is loss of fellowship - true. What we don't consider is that the loss of fellowship, if never stopped - means eternal. Think about it, if sin did not lead to eternal loss of fellowship, then no one has anything to worry about - whether or not they believe in Christ. We know this cannot be true, right?

We were all apart of God's family to begin with yes? Did God create Adam? Yes. Are we all descendants of Adam? Yes. What caused the separation then? Sin.

Sin entered, and with it brought separation from God. When you are separated from God, then you are separated from His family - it is other wise known as "cut off".

Rom 11:13
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

We see that some of God's natural branches, which is to say some of the 'natural' children of God, were 'cut off'. The ONLY reason why they were cut off was because of unbelief. It is impossible to say that a member of God's family cannot be 'cut off' from that family. The prodigal son was 'dead' to his father - that means he was no longer apart of his fathers family. When he returned, he was brought back into the family.

Sin - continual sin - leads to hardness of heart - and hardness of heart leads to unbelief.

That is why we have eternal life in Christ - and only in Christ. When we sin, Christ goes before the Father on our account. When we confess our sin, He is faithful to forgive us. How can we confess when we are not in fellowship?

Continual sin, in the life of a believer, hardens the heart. It can, and will if left unchecked, lead one to fall away from Christ. If you fall away from Christ, that means you are not in Christ - and only in Christ is there forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

See, sin is the culprit - but unbelief is the outcome.
 
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