Are guns now part of our worship at church?

Allen Wynne said:

Was the Apostle Paul a coward when he died for his faith in Christ, or was he too a coward as you say?

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Be gentle as doves and wise as serpents.

th1b.taylor said:

One thing I've noticed whether in Vietnam or here at home, when a Criminal or any other civilian decides to shoot you, there is no time to negotiate and you can have fifty Guns in twenty-five cars in the Parking Lot, in the trunk and if one of the gun owners could get get to the vehicle I and and anyone else would be able to exp[end a couple to 600 rounds and have anywhere fro fifty to a couple of hundred dead and ready for the funeral.

In times of war it is wise to be prepared and folks this is the very thing I and a half million other young men fought to keep out of here but you, like it or not, you at war with the Forces of Evil! Will you watch your loved ones be slaughtered as we did Hogs and Cattle n the farm? Children, it is time to wake up or to die.

Personally, I will welcome death once I get past the pain of it but I must ask, are you, also as Home Sick as I am to go home to be with the Father and His Son...today?

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Hi Bill,
I like what you said about being at war with the forces of evil.
Maybe I see evil too much, I don't know - maybe I do.
But I'm sure all Christians are more sensitive to it than others who may not even believe that satan exists.

Anyway, yes, my feeling is that evil is to be fought at all costs. We don't have a police department because we DON'T need one...we have one because we DO need one.
There are mentally deranged persons in this world, evil persons, hateful persons...all willing to do evil to some degree or other.

I don't own a gun an don't plan on getting one. But if I was in real danger and someone was going to shoot me, I'd shoot them first. At least that's what I THINK, I'd do. Of course, we never really know what we'd do till the situation arises.

Also, I agree that a family must be protected. The first responsibility of the govt is to protect its citizens. That's like a big family. We also live in our own small family, and the first priority is to protect that family. By finding shelter for it, by getting food for it, and whatever else is necessary.

I admire a person who can depend on God to that degree. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be our comforter and helper. Helper.

If all the early Christians died horribly, including the Apostles, it must surely mean that God will not come back in person to save each one of us personally. (although I do believe this has happened in some cases).

It's the same old story of evil.
Where did it come from?
Why does God allow it?
I think evil needs to be fought.

Allen Wynne said:

Was the Apostle Paul a coward when he died for his faith in Christ, or was he too a coward as you say?

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What-a-post .. .. I think we know cowards are the ones who prey on the weak or vulnerable when they think they have advantage.. Was Paul being a coward here Acts 9:24-25 certainly not .. If Paul had a wife and children would he have left them in danger, would you ? Heck, my wife wouldn't even do that and she's afraid of bugs ..

Jesus told his diciples to take swords with them for there Journey and swords are a weapon. I do not believe Jesus told his diciples to buy swords to cut a block of cheese, but to defend themselves, or, to let others know they are protected and can defend themselves so they wouldnt be robbed on there journeys.

How long were the diciples with Jesus before he said 'put down your sword' to the diciple who went to strike the soldier?. if having a sword was so against Jesus why did his diciple even have a sword with him to start with?

Northman said:

It's different where he lives. RCMP policy doesn't allow it generally. They require some special permission. They can act but don't have to. Their jurisdiction spans thousands of miles and some very far from their homes have acted, unarmed. The entire idea of armed folks in church up here is going to be an alien concept, cop or not.

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Yet for decades in america churches have been burned,members killed.the black churches were often burned by the kkk.

A cop must carry at all times on duty ,a traffic stop can turn deadly.a man was sentenced for just that recently

Free said:

The threat of violence and the carrying out of violence are two different things. We can't even say, from Scripture, that Jesus threatened violence.

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So chasing people with a whip is not an act of violence ?
If you say so. But you cannot say He did not use it, He used it to chase people.

jasonc said:

Yet for decades in america churches have been burned,members killed.the black churches were often burned by the kkk.

A cop must carry at all times on duty ,a traffic stop can turn deadly.a man was sentenced for just that recently

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True about the black churches and kkk. The original primary targets of the kkk were Jews and Catholics.

jasonc said:

So you go to a church who has to protect itsself per state law and say it's wrong for them now to pay for security of able?

In our state 711 because they don't allow guns must have two employees at all times. The state will force churches to do this with insurance and background checks.I couldn't be a janitor without a back ground check 20 years ago

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How do you know my church is a government church?

Getting back to the OP, God tells us in Ephesians 6:12; "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms".
The Apostle Paul then tells us in verses 13-18 what our weapons and equipment are against these enemies.

I have to ask, do people ever read these verses?
Does anyone take them literally?
Why did God put them in the Bible?
What do they really mean?

In Romans 13, Paul talks about our worldly authorities.
In 13:4b; he says, "He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer".

This is not the job of the believer, to carry guns and kill.
It's a job for the authorities.

Isn't it time to put the guns away and start living God's Word?

Creative said:

Are you trying to make some point ? I don't see where you are going with this or what you are implying.

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There is a great spans implied in my question. Who checks your teaching and holds you accountable, here on the earth? Why do you disobey Jesus by failing to congregate in worship and so many fine points, to numerous such as why the nervous response instead of an answer? Are you afraid of the accountability taught by scripture?

Free said:

So what does this have to do with guns in the church or persecution of Christians?

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There is a previous post about guns in Church that said maybe in the Trunk of the car and then there is my response. My point is, a man with an AR style 5.56 caliber would gun you down before you got out of the pew, ask Jasonc, he knows the fire power of the M-16 on single fire and it is the same as it's forerunner, the AR-15. Add the Bump Stock that the Oboma Administration approved as legal and a 50 round clip and the invader is firing at up to six hundred rounds a minute.

I know, not just believe but know, that to be dead is to be with the Christ in Heaven, my home. I also know that at least 98% of the Body of Christ tell me, "Well... I do to but not today." Most ¿Christians? aev not ready to go, right now, to Heaven.

As Tolstoy was suggesting, and as reality proves time and again, fighting evil with the same tactics used by evil simply doesn't work. Guns lead to more guns and bigger guns and then weapons more destructive than guns. Start an "armed-churches" movement, and you might as well raise a red flag in front of a bull or paint a target on your chest. Defeating your "protections" will become a new and challenging game for evil. Shootings will become more creative. Bombings will increase to the point that the armed churches will be forced to expand to metal detectors and the inspection of purses and packages. Wackos who otherwise never would have thought of attacking a church will now view them as prime targets. "Security" rather than "worship" will become the focus of the service for those few who still attend. Internal incidents will lead to hand-wringing over "what can be done" about the epidemic of church members shooting each other or their pastors. The armed churches will become the laughing-stock of the unbelieving community rather than the beacons of light they should be. Evil will WIN because it ALWAYS wins when you try to fight it on its terms.

Only in a military-worshiping, gun-worshiping culture like America could Christians confuse spiritual warfare with earthly warfare. Yeah, let's use Vietnam as our model: How did that work out for everyone involved?

I've said on multiple threads that I believe something is radically, fundamentally wrong with "Christianity" in America. The extent to which Jesus' message has been perverted by right-wing "values" (meaning largely the "values" of the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about as he left office) has to be, I believe, a product of supernaturally evil influences. There is unquestionably some overlap between Jesus' message and certain "conservative" and "liberal" values. The evil is in identifying so closely with a political agenda that one allows it to define one's Christianity, pervert Jesus' message, and blind one to real Christian values. Unfortunately, as we see throughout these forums, those who have done this manage to convince themselves that they are the very best Christians if not the only real Christians. When armed churches start sounding like a good idea, I would suggest you've gone over the edge.

Free said:

This is what is known as a straw man. I never said that everyone "should just sit there and wait to be shot to death by a maniac and do nothing."


The threat of violence and the carrying out of violence are two different things. We can't even say, from Scripture, that Jesus threatened violence.

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And if these shooters knew that all Churches, potentially had Armed Men in the Pews, it would require the idiots t consider the likelihood of never accomplishing their wishes before they were shot down, preventing them from acting. And scripture never disagrees with scripture but rather must And if these shooters knew that all Churches, potentially had Armed Men in the Pews, it would require the idiots t consider the likelihood that they will be killed before they complete their planned slaughter.

About Gun Control: In different states it has been tracked and the overall conclusion has been that without Concealed Carry the crime rate is higher as was seen in Texas cities and it drops when the right to carry is instated, there is a sudden decline in crime.

Free said:

This is what is known as a straw man. I never said that everyone "should just sit there and wait to be shot to death by a maniac and do nothing."


The threat of violence and the carrying out of violence are two different things. We can't even say, from Scripture, that Jesus threatened violence.

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Free,
None of us has, as you're implying, has indicated that the Gun Carriers should reveal they even carry. My posts over all, should be viewed as saying the exact opposite. Nobody should ever Cowboy with their gun. When I still carried, back before the Yankee Invasion of Texas, I never touched my gun nor the Gun Belt except there was a snake or other threat needing attention. Even with Open Carry there is a godly manor that requires Extreme Caution.

kiwidan said:

Jesus told his diciples to take swords with them for there Journey and swords are a weapon. I do not believe Jesus told his diciples to buy swords to cut a block of cheese, but to defend themselves, or, to let others know they are protected and can defend themselves so they wouldnt be robbed on there journeys.

How long were the diciples with Jesus before he said 'put down your sword' to the diciple who went to strike the soldier?. if having a sword was so against Jesus why did his diciple even have a sword with him to start with?

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Thought provoking responce, Dan.

th1b.taylor said:

Free,
None of us has, as you're implying, has indicated that the Gun Carriers should reveal they even carry. My posts over all, should be viewed as saying the exact opposite. Nobody should ever Cowboy with their gun. When I still carried, back before the Yankee Invasion of Texas, I never touched my gun nor the Gun Belt except there was a snake or other threat needing attention. Even with Open Carry there is a godly manor that requires Extreme Caution.

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I have implied no such thing as it isn't at all relevant to what I have been saying.

Organizing a militia, count me in ..

Allen Wynne said:

Getting back to the OP, God tells us in Ephesians 6:12; "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms".
The Apostle Paul then tells us in verses 13-18 what our weapons and equipment are against these enemies.

I have to ask, do people ever read these verses?
Does anyone take them literally?
Why did God put them in the Bible?
What do they really mean?

In Romans 13, Paul talks about our worldly authorities.
In 13:4b; he says, "He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer".

This is not the job of the believer, to carry guns and kill.
It's a job for the authorities.of spiritual

Isn't it time to put the guns away and start living God's Word?

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And to stop doing the works of the evil one ad to keep it in context, Paul spoke this when speaking of the Spiritual War that most in the Church are not fighting, to this day and is a very good example of preparedness for all events. You may get mad at me again but you must find the principle of the scripture and to do that it must be kept in iit's intended context.

kiwidan said:

Jesus told his diciples to take swords with them for there Journey and swords are a weapon. I do not believe Jesus told his diciples to buy swords to cut a block of cheese, but to defend themselves, or, to let others know they are protected and can defend themselves so they wouldnt be robbed on there journeys.

How long were the diciples with Jesus before he said 'put down your sword' to the diciple who went to strike the soldier?. if having a sword was so against Jesus why did his diciple even have a sword with him to start with?

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Two swords among eleven disciples isn't much, especially when Jesus knew they would very quickly desert him, each going their own way (most would be without swords). We need to look at the context, as context is king. Jesus tells us precisely why he wanted his disciples to have swords:

Luk 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.”
Luk 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.”
Luk 22:38 And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.” (ESV)

It was so that he would be 'numbered with the transgressors.'

Here are some things to consider from Dr. Michael Brown:

'So much for Jesus calling us to turn the other cheek (Matt 5:38-42). So much for Him saying that it is the meek who will inherit the earth, the peacemakers who will be called children of God, and the ones who were persecuted for righteousness who are blessed (Matt 5:5, 9-12). So much for Him teaching that the world would treat us the same way it treated Him (Matt 10:25; John 15:18-20).

So much for Peter writing that we should follow our Savior's example, noting that "when He was reviled, He did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten" (1 Pet. 2:23). And so much for Paul explaining that "it was granted on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).'

'Using the logic of some of those who believe that being armed is the key to avoiding persecution, why did the apostles merely pray together for boldness to preach and for miracles to be wrought through Jesus' name when they were threatened (Acts 4:24-31)? Why didn't they plot a strategy of fighting back with their swords? Wasn't this what Jesus was telling them to do in Luke 22?'

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/67982-did-jesus-really-tell-his-disciples-to-buy-swords?utm_source=In the Line of Fire&utm_medium=email&utm_content=subscriber_id:803809&utm_campaign=Blogger - Michael Brown - 2017-10-30

th1b.taylor said:

I know, not just believe but know, that to be dead is to be with the Christ in Heaven, my home. I also know that at least 98% of the Body of Christ tell me, "Well... I do to but not today." Most ¿Christians? aev not ready to go, right now, to Heaven.

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On the contrary, Christians are always ready to go. Those who are Christian in name only (a majority of 'Christians' in the west), are not ready.

th1b.taylor said:

And if these shooters knew that all Churches, potentially had Armed Men in the Pews, it would require the idiots t consider the likelihood of never accomplishing their wishes before they were shot down, preventing them from acting. And scripture never disagrees with scripture but rather must And if these shooters knew that all Churches, potentially had Armed Men in the Pews, it would require the idiots t consider the likelihood that they will be killed before they complete their planned slaughter.

About Gun Control: In different states it has been tracked and the overall conclusion has been that without Concealed Carry the crime rate is higher as was seen in Texas cities and it drops when the right to carry is instated, there is a sudden decline in crime.

Click to expand...

It wouldn't change anything except, as Runner just pointed out, the requirement for larger guns and other means by the perpetrators. If someone wants to kill a large number of people in a church, they will find the means regardless of those with guns.

The Christian answer to gun violence ought to never be more guns. That is to give in to fear-based worldly thinking instead of Christ-centred gospel thinking.