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We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

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Rajesh Sahu said:
Most of "Saved by grace through faith" Christian teachings originated from Martin Luther. After diligently and deeply studying Bible for past 12 years, I came to the conclusion we are not saved by faith alone In Christ, as Martin Luther interpreted, but also through diligent obedience ---- doing the will of God versus our own will. Jesus Himself warns his followers about this in Matthew 7: 18-26.
Click to expand...
Greetings Rajesh, I never studied Martin Luther's theology, Just his biography. But Christ teaches Salvation by Faith through Grace, It is Christ's Doctrine, and has been from the beginning. All the OT saint live in faith by the Grace of God,(Heb. 11: 1-40), even under the Law. Abraham believed (faith) in God's promises and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6) (Gen. 15:6). It was man who asked God for the law. After (by faith) those in Egypt applied the blood of the sacrificial lamb and were led out of Egypt by God's grace, they said they would do what ever God wanted. (instead of continuing in God's Grace) (Exodus 19:3-8) Thus the Law (Exodus 20:1-26). And with the Law came the conviction of sin (Romans 7:1-14). But, before the Church, obedience to Christ's teachings would bring you to Christ, But it was only after The Cross and resurrection of Christ that the Church (Christ Body) that the Church was formed and a new Covenant began in which The permanent possession of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost where a man could be saved by faith, because A man was not subject to works of obedience through all his life, but the law was in their hearts and in their minds, directed by the Holy Spirit instead of a fleshy obedience that man could not keep. (Acts 15:6-12) (Heb. 7:11-28) (Heb. 8:1-13) Please study the Scriptures. It is an amazing Spiritual and Holy Discovery. Who knows the mind of The Lord, but we have the mind of Christ.(1 Cor. 2:15-16)...if so be that you are born of the Spirit.(Rom. 8:1-17). The Synoptic Gospels are about Israel and were still under the the Old Covenant, the Church is yet to be born. (Matt. 16:18) The Church is called out at Pentecost. It is good to study continually Rajesh and I commend you for it, But the Scriptures are not subject to carnal reasoning, they are Spiritual, and require the indwelling Holy Spirit that we are sealed with.(1 Cor. 12:1-31) Share with us, if you would, about your conversion and calling of God.
Christ in us
Douglas Summers
 
Last edited:
wondering said:
Hi RS
Welcome to the forum.

So far I've read such nice posts. Jesus would be proud of us.

I'd have to agree with the last paragraph of atpollard .

We ARE saved by faith ALONE.
We cannot work our way to salvation. Our works do not mean anything to God unless we love Him.

AFTER we are saved by faith we are also to obey our master.
@th1btaylor touched on this.

And, as atpollard said, if we do not show our obedience, which includes works of any kind whatever, then our salvation can certainly be questioned.
Click to expand...
Enjoyed your post Wondering.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Interesting but does it have your spin, aka opinion, on it? Of course it does, we all could be found Guilty, if it were a crime, of this, especially me! Okay, so that you need not dig through my past posts to learn it I stand on the statement that; No scripture can ever be understood without the light of all other scripture shinning on it. Couple that with I will forever insist the Bible is from "In the beginning..." trough the very last verse of The Revelation of Jesus chapter 22 is of a single context and though written by about 40 scribes, it is authored/inspired by one author, Jesus, (John 1:1-30)

I see it more along the line of, especially the James Passage refers to the state of the saved man's condition. I know that when a man is saved he will demonstrate his or her salvation by works. There is nothing more that must be completed, that is covered with the death of our Master on the cross.

These passages, to me, illustrate that if a man, male, or female is saved, out of love for the LORD they will work. That is oe more of those Free Will things.
Click to expand...
Creative said:
Only God knows who goes to heaven and who does not.

As for Martin Luther, he was not excommunicated for opposing the Catholic Church nor for starting a denomination of his own; the historical fact is that he was excommunicated for lying. And I know what Jesus said in the Bible about liars.
Click to expand...

Well I do strongly believe that faith alone will not save anyone. No matter how hard and often we quote Paul. I believe its the responsibility of every Christian to deeply examine words of Christ first --- the red lettered words. Unfortunately due to many teachers quoting many verses ( especially of Paul) Jesus' powerful call for obedience gets drowned. Put Christ's before Martin Luther's interpretation or words of apostle Paul is my exhortation to all believers. After all we are Christians and not Paulians :)
 
“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Writing of Martin Luther. Be a sinner and sin boldly.
 
This is the Theology forum. Points and counterpoints need to be supported by Scripture to explain the reason for the statements, not just personal opinion.

Do not reply to this post in this thread.
 
OzSpen said:
bru,

What has your comment about Eph 2:8-9 have to do with the content of that text?

Oz
Click to expand...
I was stating that according to scripture we are saved by faith alone and not works , Martin Luther was right all the rest is just fluff after the fact imo..
 
Rajesh Sahu said:
Most of "Saved by grace through faith" Christian teachings originated from Martin Luther.
Click to expand...
Incorrect.

In his later years, Luther taught “Saved by grace through faith” (that is to say salvation, by God’s grace, comes through faith not works) because he found it taught in Scripture. Including the ‘red letters’.
“Saved by grace through faith” was originated through Jesus’ teachings (see Biblical support below) and His apostles’ teachings after Him and the NT Scriptures that recorded them. Which is why Luther spent many years studying the original languages of the Scriptures and many years translating the Scriptures into German and many years teaching them, and many years (and money) printing copies thereof so that others like him (looking to Jesus’ teachings) could read about salvation by Grace through faith in Him for themselves/ourselves in a language other than Latin and stop having to assume certain doctrines were correct based on Roman bishops and the papacy’s doctrines.

Original realization of “by Grace through faith” salvation:

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.​
John 1:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:17&version=NASB

Grace is realized through ________?
A. Jesus Christ
B. our diligence
C. A and B
D. None of the above

Rajesh Sahu said:
After diligently and deeply studying Bible for past 12 years, I came to the conclusion we are not saved by faith alone In Christ, as Martin Luther interpreted, but also through diligent obedience ---- doing the will of God versus our own will.
Click to expand...
Just think, in another 36 years of studying the Bible and a translation of the complete Bible into a language that had never received it before, you’ll have accomplished a small part of Luther’s diligence.

For the first twelve years or so of Martin Luther’s adult life he thought the same as you do, having been a faithful Roman Catholic, yet unlearned later from the Scriptures themselves (including the ‘red letters’) that his salvation depended on faith in Christ alone. (As did the thief on the cross and us all)
For the next twelve years, he became a monk while trying to find his salvation in this way (through diligent obedience). He only began to think otherwise after learning he couldn’t find it that eay and then studying the original Texts for himself. He found at least 95 doctrines of his current church to be in conflict to varying degrees, with the Scripture he began to study as a Catholic monk. The #1 being their doctrine of how to find salvation (or not).
After discovering he couldn’t find salvation through diligent obedience and furthermore couldn’t find any Biblical support for that notion in the first place (to include the passages referenced in your OP and more), he came to a different conclusion about faith’s role in salvation than he’d been led to believe by his teachers. (That is; salvation is actually by Grace through faith alone, versus by faith plus obedience to the papacy)
He then spent the next 36 or so years bearing good fruit as a result.

Rajesh Sahu said:
Jesus Himself warns his followers about this in Matthew 7: 18-26.
18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Click to expand...
See, Luther (like all trees) had to become a good tree by God’s grace in order to bear good fruit. Same as Paul (a reformist Himself) taught:

For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​
Colossians 1:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Colossians 1:9-12&version=NASB

Paul taught the Father and Him alone qualified us. Luther’s church at that time, taught otherwise. Paul got his teaching from Christ.

Imagine if your pastor taught you that Scripture teaches you to give thanks (and your money and your prayers) to the current ‘holy fathers’ on Earth (the papacy) who qualifies you, and requalifes you over and over, to share in the inheritance of the saints. And did so by supposedly quoting a language of Scripture you couldn’t even understand (Latin).

Rajesh Sahu said:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
Click to expand...
The implied answer is ‘nothing’. Saying you have faith, profits you nothing. You must actually have faith in Him, not just say you have it, in order to profit from it. Luther found this out like Paul did.

Within just a few days of Jesus’ resurrection, His apostles taught salvation by grace through faith alone saves? Don’t believe me???

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “ Be saved from this perverse generation!” So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.​
Acts 2:40-41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 2:40-41&version=NASB

Where these three thousand souls saved “that day” or did it takes years of diligent obedience to save them?

And yes, the Scriptures says they continued to be devoted. However, their numbers were added the day they received the word!
 
Free said:
"What is it about your own miserable works and doings that you think you could please God more than the sacrifice of His own Son?"
― Martin Luther
Click to expand...
This is addressed to those who try to please God by their works and to achieve salvation by their works.
Luther was very much distressed by this within the CC.
Thus the importance given by him to Ephesians 2:8

This is not addressed to the saved.
Works by the saved are required by God.
Ephesians 2:10
 
chessman said:
Incorrect.

In his later years, Luther taught “Saved by grace through faith” (that is to say salvation, by God’s grace, comes through faith not works) because he found it taught in Scripture. Including the ‘red letters’.
“Saved by grace through faith” was originated through Jesus’ teachings (see Biblical support below) and His apostles’ teachings after Him and the NT Scriptures that recorded them. Which is why Luther spent many years studying the original languages of the Scriptures and many years translating the Scriptures into German and many years teaching them, and many years (and money) printing copies thereof so that others like him (looking to Jesus’ teachings) could read about salvation by Grace through faith in Him for themselves/ourselves in a language other than Latin and stop having to assume certain doctrines were correct based on Roman bishops and the papacy’s doctrines.

Original realization of “by Grace through faith” salvation:

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.​
John 1:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:17&version=NASB

Grace is realized through ________?
A. Jesus Christ
B. our diligence
C. A and B
D. None of the above


Just think, in another 36 years of studying the Bible and a translation of the complete Bible into a language that had never received it before, you’ll have accomplished a small part of Luther’s diligence.

For the first twelve years or so of Martin Luther’s adult life he thought the same as you do, having been a faithful Roman Catholic, yet unlearned later from the Scriptures themselves (including the ‘red letters’) that his salvation depended on faith in Christ alone. (As did the thief on the cross and us all)
For the next twelve years, he became a monk while trying to find his salvation in this way (through diligent obedience). He only began to think otherwise after learning he couldn’t find it that eay and then studying the original Texts for himself. He found at least 95 doctrines of his current church to be in conflict to varying degrees, with the Scripture he began to study as a Catholic monk. The #1 being their doctrine of how to find salvation (or not).
After discovering he couldn’t find salvation through diligent obedience and furthermore couldn’t find any Biblical support for that notion in the first place (to include the passages referenced in your OP and more), he came to a different conclusion about faith’s role in salvation than he’d been led to believe by his teachers. (That is; salvation is actually by Grace through faith alone, versus by faith plus obedience to the papacy)
He then spent the next 36 or so years bearing good fruit as a result.


See, Luther (like all trees) had to become a good tree by God’s grace in order to bear good fruit. Same as Paul (a reformist Himself) taught:

For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​
Colossians 1:9-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Colossians 1:9-12&version=NASB

Paul taught the Father and Him alone qualified us. Luther’s church at that time, taught otherwise. Paul got his teaching from Christ.

Imagine if your pastor taught you that Scripture teaches you to give thanks (and your money and your prayers) to the current ‘holy fathers’ on Earth (the papacy) who qualifies you, and requalifes you over and over, to share in the inheritance of the saints. And did so by supposedly quoting a language of Scripture you couldn’t even understand (Latin).


The implied answer is ‘nothing’. Saying you have faith, profits you nothing. You must actually have faith in Him, not just say you have it, in order to profit from it. Luther found this out like Paul did.

Within just a few days of Jesus’ resurrection, His apostles taught salvation by grace through faith alone saves? Don’t believe me???

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “ Be saved from this perverse generation!” So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.​
Acts 2:40-41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 2:40-41&version=NASB

Where these three thousand souls saved “that day” or did it takes years of diligent obedience to save them?

And yes, the Scriptures says they continued to be devoted. However, their numbers were added the day they received the word!
Click to expand...
RS is correct.
But you're starting to write pamphlets instead of comments, so I can't read it all.
Aren't you sorry 'bout that????

Before salvation works are useless.
After salvation works are necessary.

And please post your support of Jesus saying that we are saved by faith and not works.
I'm not going to a link, if you don't mind. We're not here to go to links.

All Jesus did was to talk of works.
Mathew 5
Mathew 25
John 15
and many more...
 
Creative said:
I am not your slave.
Click to expand...
That is a very poor, un-Christlike reply. You made a truth claim so the onus is on you to prove it is true. Christians should not be in the business of spreading untruths and should be quick and more than willing to provide evidence for any truth claims.
 
wondering said:
This is addressed to those who try to please God by their works and to achieve salvation by their works.
Luther was very much distressed by this within the CC.
Thus the importance given by him to Ephesians 2:8

This is not addressed to the saved.
Works by the saved are required by God.
Ephesians 2:10
Click to expand...
I was addressing the OP.
 
Creative said:
“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Writing of Martin Luther. Be a sinner and sin boldly.
Click to expand...
What are you saying?

Romans 6:1
May it never be!

I hope your post is sarcastic...
 
Rajesh Sahu said:
Well I do strongly believe that faith alone will not save anyone. No matter how hard and often we quote Paul. I believe its the responsibility of every Christian to deeply examine words of Christ first --- the red lettered words. Unfortunately due to many teachers quoting many verses ( especially of Paul) Jesus' powerful call for obedience gets drowned. Put Christ's before Martin Luther's interpretation or words of apostle Paul is my exhortation to all believers. After all we are Christians and not Paulians :)
Click to expand...
What Jesus taught and what Paul taught is not different.
The problem is that what Paul taught is at times difficult to understand and some persons take advantage of that and do not represent his words properly.

Jesus taught that a person must adhere to HIS rules to be saved and continue in salvation.
Paul taught exactly the same. Some like to think that grace was invented by Paul, but God's grace always existed. The rain falls on the saved and the unsaved. God's grace falls on all or no one would ever become saved.
Mathew 5:45

Jesus taught that we must be good people and do good works to be saved. Upon this we will be judged.
John 5:28-29

Paul explained that we are no longer UNDER THE LAW, but UNDER GRACE, this does not mean we're allowed to sin or NOT do good deeds. Paul agreed with Jesus (of course).
Romans 6:14-16
Romans 13:8-14
1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings can be reconciled if we're honest about what Paul teaches.
2 Peter 3:15-16
 
Creative said:
“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Writing of Martin Luther. Be a sinner and sin boldly.
Click to expand...
Hi Creative, I would add that we would lose fellowship with God unless we repented a thousand times a day. (not salvation) but fellowship. God will not fellowship with an unrepentant sinner. Thou, I can not imagine a born again believer doing such things a thousand times, for the receiving of the Holy Spirit saves us from the dominion (slaves) to or of sin. (2 Cor. 5:16-18) (Rom. 8:1) Here is a good one (Isa. 43:18) and the Epistle of 1 John.

Christ in us
Douglas Summers
 
wondering said:
What Jesus taught and what Paul taught is not different.
The problem is that what Paul taught is at times difficult to understand and some persons take advantage of that and do not represent his words properly.

Jesus taught that a person must adhere to HIS rules to be saved and continue in salvation.
Paul taught exactly the same. Some like to think that grace was invented by Paul, but God's grace always existed. The rain falls on the saved and the unsaved. God's grace falls on all or no one would ever become saved.
Mathew 5:45

Jesus taught that we must be good people and do good works to be saved. Upon this we will be judged.
John 5:28-29

Paul explained that we are no longer UNDER THE LAW, but UNDER GRACE, this does not mean we're allowed to sin or NOT do good deeds. Paul agreed with Jesus (of course).
Romans 6:14-16
Romans 13:8-14
1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings can be reconciled if we're honest about what Paul teaches.
2 Peter 3:15-16
Click to expand...
Hi Wondering, Another great post.
 
Free said:
Not saying that it isn’t. I just don’t see how your response is relevant to the quote or necessary for me.
Click to expand...
Hi Free,

This was your original post in no. 8:

"What is it about your own miserable works and doings that you think you could please God more than the sacrifice of His own Son?"
― Martin Luther

This was my reply which you believe is not relevant:

This is addressed to those who try to please God by their works and to achieve salvation by their works.
Luther was very much distressed by this within the CC.
Thus the importance given by him to Ephesians 2:8

This is not addressed to the saved.
Works by the saved are required by God.
Ephesians 2:10

I believe Luther's statement is for those who are trying to gain salvation by works.
Wasn't this his major reason for his complaints against the CC? I believe so.

What he's saying is that our works are worth nothing in the eyes of God but only our belief in His Son, Jesus. IOW, we cannot please God by our works to become saved --- we can only please Him by believing in His Son.
John 3:16

I'm sure the O.P. will also reply.
This is my understanding of Luther's quote.

 
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