The beasts reign is 42 months not 7 years. That will be the great tribulation. I do not hold to a pre tribulation rapture.Randy the first thing to realize is that there is not a seven-year tribulation that doctrine comes from the misinterpretation of Dan 9:27
The words, He Shall Confirm The Covenant with Many, represents a mystery that is not understood by many.
The link above should help in sorting this out. Here is a portion of that message.
By correctly understanding Dan 9:27, we realize several important facts.
Christ claimed that Jerusalem would become desolate and remain in that spiritual condition, until His return for the second gathering of His people. Often times it is errantly taught that the Israel of 1948 represents the second gathering prophesied in scripture.
- There is no seven year tribulation, as the deceitful interpretation of this verse is the only excuse made for a seven year tribulation period.
- Christ caused the sacrifice and the oblations to cease, so there will not be a Jewish temple with the old ordinances becoming reinstated.
At the true second gathering, all the righteous in Christ will reign in a Gloriously restored Jerusalem. No longer will Jerusalem be spiritually referred to as Sodom and Egypt, as it is during the Great Tribulation (Rev 11:8).
He shall confirm the covenant with many, points to Christ who was the one who caused the sacrifices and the oblations to cease, as he was the final sacrifice. After the cross, never again would animal sacrifices be acceptable. In the midst of the week, or after his three and a half year ministry, Christ sacrificed Himself for us. Daniel also tells us that for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. This refers to the false house of Judah that had become as dross, or worthless (Eze 22:19-21, Luke 13:35).
Behold your house is left to you desolate, was the decree given unto Jerusalem by Christ (Math 23:38). The Lord, at many times throughout their history, did not recognize their religious sacrifices as being valid (Isa 66:3-4; Isa 1:11).
He shall confirm the covenant with many is in no way a reference to the antichrist, however Christ will confirm the covenant with many. The suggestion that the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27, is a covenant made with Israel by the Antichrist, is a terrible lie and is not supported anywhere in the scriptures.
The word covenant is used seven times in Daniel, and only once is it not a representation of the holy covenant of God.
Daniel 11:21-22 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant,(or treaty).
The covenant here is between two men, and in this case refers to an alliance or pledge.
Daniel 11:23 And after the league (or uniting together) made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
The antichrist or little horn of Daniel does not confirm the covenant, but is in fact very much opposed to, or against it with considerable force.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
By understanding that the commandments of God are contained in Christ's testimony, Rev 12:17, takes on a completely different meaning. Those who say they are of the spiritual house of Judah, but are not, do not keep these commandments. So obviously this is a reference to Christians, that the Beast and False Prophet persecute. This means that there is no pre tribulation rapture, only the true believers have the testimony of Jesus (1Cor1:6; Rev 1:9; Rev 12:11).
From the above verse it is clear to see that the dragon through his fleshly representative makes war with the remnant, who are the Christians that have the testimony of Christ.
He shall confirm the covenant with many is in reference to Christ who did confirm the covenant with many. His earthly ministry was for three and a half years. This leaves the second half of the last week still unfulfilled. Many grasp the truth that Daniel 9:27, refers to Christ as the one who does the confirming. However they believe that it is a consecutive seven year period with the latter half confirmation taking place through his disciples.
Christ did confirm the covenant with many, and this confirmation process began at the beginning of the New Testament age.
The interpretation of the words "He Shall Confirm The Covenant with Many" will impact our understanding of other prophetic passages. The truth hidden in this passage will undoubtedly unravel many other deceptions that are all to common in end time prophecy teachings.
Most teachers of Christianity falsely claim that this verse is all about the anti Christ making a covenant with Israel for seven years.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
From the command to rebuild Jerusalem until Christ is a period of sixty nine weeks of years; the emphasis in this verse is on Jesus Christ (Dan 9:25).
And after this period of time Messiah shall be cut off; the emphasis in this verse is also on Him (Dan 9:26). Likewise in Dan 9:27, the emphasis is still on Jesus. He shall confirm the covenant with many.
The words “he shall" are added by the translator twice. Therefore, what is being described in the first part of this passage is the confirming or establishment of a covenant with many for one week. This means that the emphasis is on confirming a covenant, and it may be confirmed by multiple sources. He shall confirm the covenant with many, is in reference to Christ's covenant.
The first half of the seventieth week of Daniel was fulfilled in Christ; His ministry was for three and one half years. The promise that He shall confirm the covenant with many, is in reference to Christ's covenant, and is already partially fulfilled.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Why I can't believe in rapture theory
- Thread starter joseph lentz
- Start date
The beasts reign is 42 months not 7 years. That will be the great tribulation. I do not hold to a pre tribulation rapture.
They did run consecutively up through the stoning of Steven totaling four hundred and ninety years.
The following blessings were accomplished fully in Christ.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Is there more of Daniel to come? Yes but the prophesied four hundred and ninety years are complete.
Stoning of Stephen seems to be the Jews' last shot of having things exclusive -- apostles had not been told to go to Gentiles, then Peter not much later had the rooftop vision before going to Cornelius' house and things opened up for Gentiles, Paul got blinded, us wild olive branches started gettin grafted in...
a woman at sunday school was puzzled this morning about Jesus' statement that
"there be some standing here that will not taste death til they see the kingdom come with power"
and I said "Well Stephen saw it as he was stoned, Jesus at the right hand of God, and John that wrote Revelation saw (in vision) a group of stuff about the kingdom coming"
Later I remembered that Jesus, when pressed by the bigshots to say whether He was the Messiah or not, said:
“I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62
a woman at sunday school was puzzled this morning about Jesus' statement that
"there be some standing here that will not taste death til they see the kingdom come with power"
and I said "Well Stephen saw it as he was stoned, Jesus at the right hand of God, and John that wrote Revelation saw (in vision) a group of stuff about the kingdom coming"
Later I remembered that Jesus, when pressed by the bigshots to say whether He was the Messiah or not, said:
“I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62
Last edited:
Act 7:55
But he, (Stephen) being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
And thus ends Daniel's 70 weeks.
But he, (Stephen) being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
And thus ends Daniel's 70 weeks.
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Daniel 9:27
Daniel's 70th week will end on the last Day, when Jesus returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, whereby everlasting righteousness will be brought in.
When there is no trace of the kingdoms of this world, and the wicked are carried away like chaff on the summer threshing floor.
34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35
Then will come to pass the saying -
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
JLB
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
There is no Rapture. Its false. All flesh dies. Even Jesus died. And Paul was talking about those who were sleeping in Christ until Christs return, and those who were alive and remain would be caught up with them in the clouds.
The scriptures are just saying we dont sleep anymore, there is no grave, when we die we get caught straight up in the clouds.
These were all the people sleeping in Christ that Paul was talking about until Christ returned. After that everyone who died got caught straight up in the clouds with them. We dont sleep in Christ anymore.
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
And all the other so called Rapture scriptures.
The scriptures are just saying we dont sleep anymore, there is no grave, when we die we get caught straight up in the clouds.
These were all the people sleeping in Christ that Paul was talking about until Christ returned. After that everyone who died got caught straight up in the clouds with them. We dont sleep in Christ anymore.
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
And all the other so called Rapture scriptures.
Its a matter of terminology. Some call those left alive that are caught up at the 2nd coming a rapture even if they don't hold to a pre tribulation rapture. IF you don't believe at the 2nd coming there will be christians still alive on earth at the 2nd coming thats not what I read and I would state you are mistaken. The dead in Christ rise first is the resurrection of the saints then those left alive on earth are caught up so that they to cane be clothed with immortality. New bodies not of the dust of the earth as mortal flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom God promised to those that love him.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
- We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
The Rapture is those who are alive and remain, at the coming of the Lord, will be caught together with the dead in Christ.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
- the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
....alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.
JLB
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
Exactly like Paul said.
The dead were raised when Christ returned, after that, no one sleept anymore when they died, everyone was caught up in the twinkling of an eye. Christ returned and fullfilled all things.
The dead in Christ rose first at his return, NOW, we who are alive and remain when we die get caught straight up with them. We dont sleep anymore.
If the dead are first, then how on earth can we be 'raptured' and caught together with them at the same time if we are second?.
Paul would have said we are all first and when Christ returns we will all get beamed into the sky together, if there was a rapture.
The '"Rapture" is when you die you get caught straight up to God.
Dont be decieved brother.
Paul knew he would still be alive when Christ returned to deliver the Kingdom to God, and when he died he would be caught straight up in the clouds in the twinkling of an eye and be with the dead who were raised first and he would not be sleeping and would be with the saints and Christ forever. Thats what he was explaining.
Last edited:
No scripture. Only you opinion which does not take into account the words of scripture.
I took the time to show plainly from the scripture that the Rapture is after the resurrection, being separate, and occurs at His coming, when "those who are alive and remain will be caught up together" with the resurrected ones.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
- We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
The Rapture is those who are alive and remain, at the coming of the Lord, will be caught together with the dead in Christ.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
- the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
....alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.
JLB
Edward
2024 Supporter
I do know one thing for sure now. There is no pre-trib rapture. We're promised in scripture much suffering and persecution. Who are we to be so presumptuous to think that we're so much better to escape, than all those persecuted Christians down through the ages?
I don't know if it'll be mid-trib or post trib. I hope for pre-trib so as not to suffer the very worst of it. Boom, right before the mark is unveiled. Hopefully! I mean, we ARE His Bride, right?! The wife will suffer, but wouldn't you want to save your Wife from the worst suffering? I think yes. At least I would. God's will be done.
I don't know if it'll be mid-trib or post trib. I hope for pre-trib so as not to suffer the very worst of it. Boom, right before the mark is unveiled. Hopefully! I mean, we ARE His Bride, right?! The wife will suffer, but wouldn't you want to save your Wife from the worst suffering? I think yes. At least I would. God's will be done.
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
The 'rapture' is after the ressurection like you said.
When Paul says "we shall not all sleep" means after Christ returns people will no longer sleep when they die, no longer given robes and told to wait, the temple of God is open, Christ has delivered the Kingdom to God, but they will be caught straight up to God in the twinkling of an eye raised incorruptible.
Christ returned and raised the dead, then everyone else after his return did not sleep like Paul, they got 'raptured' straight up to be with the Lord when they died. They were caught up.
Same with us, we get 'raptured' when we die.
It is given for man to die once. Even Jesus died.
People are just confused because they are applying scripture that was not given to them and making it there own.
Paul knew he would still be alive after Christs return.
Last edited:
They will be caught up together with them (the resurrected ones) to meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds, as He descends to Jerusalem, to the mount of olives.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
JLB
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
First thing. Christ comes in his Kingdom without observation.
Paul is saying he will still be alive after the ressurection.
So Paul and whoever is still alive will get caught up together in the clouds to be with the Lord. They dont need to wait and be given a robe, people won't sleep anymore waiting for a ressurection because Christ returns and everything is complete, they will be caught straight up when the flesh dies.
The dead in Christ will rise first, then, we who are alive and remain. We meaning Paul and who he was talking to.
Do you believe there is the ressurection of the dead first as one event as Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first, and then a rapture of those who are alive and remain ?
Last edited:
It takes place on the last day. Rev 16:15 The great battle of God almighty. The enemies of God are dealt with and the resurrection of the saints are on the same day. A unique day know to the Lord. Ref Zech 14:6-9
Same day is not required the same second but both gatherings will happen suddenly and instantly.- The How is by the power and wisdom of God not man. Jesus stated he would sen His angels to the ends of the heavens to gather his elect. He also stated he would send out His angels to pull up the weeds and throw them into the fire.
Jesus first taught there would be saints taken up from the earth on that day known to the Lord. The rapture will take place in an instant. And they shall all be clothed with immortality.
Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Natt 24:30-31 NIV “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
1 North 15:52 NIV... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Rev 11:15 NIV
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
2000 years ago the Apostle Paul wrote to the congregation of the Thessalonians.
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve"
So Paul is speaking about people who are dead.
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
Paul is saying himself and the Thessalonian congregation at that time who were alive and not dead will not prevent them that are dead until the coming of the Lord, as the spoken word of the Lord.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Paul tells the Thessalonians that himself and the Thessalonians who are alive because they are not dead, will meet the Lord and the dead in the air.
Did all the Thessalonians in that generation die and no one was alive who the letter was acturally written to at that time and who read the letter meet the Lord in the air and Paul also just died?
Any Thessalonians around these days?. Paging the Church of the Thessalonians. Anyone seen the Thessalonians?
Just a coincendence no one knows what happened to Paul or how or why or where he died. Its like he dissapeared like he just vanished.
Closest is 2 timothy where he was ready to be rewarded with others waiting for his appearing on that Day.
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve"
So Paul is speaking about people who are dead.
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
Paul is saying himself and the Thessalonian congregation at that time who were alive and not dead will not prevent them that are dead until the coming of the Lord, as the spoken word of the Lord.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Paul tells the Thessalonians that himself and the Thessalonians who are alive because they are not dead, will meet the Lord and the dead in the air.
Did all the Thessalonians in that generation die and no one was alive who the letter was acturally written to at that time and who read the letter meet the Lord in the air and Paul also just died?
Any Thessalonians around these days?. Paging the Church of the Thessalonians. Anyone seen the Thessalonians?
Just a coincendence no one knows what happened to Paul or how or why or where he died. Its like he dissapeared like he just vanished.
Closest is 2 timothy where he was ready to be rewarded with others waiting for his appearing on that Day.
Last edited:
Morning kiwidan, and so are you thinking there were some Thessalonians caught up alive at the time those of Thessalonica were a functioning assembly needed to make prophesy come out right?
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
Paul clearly makes the distiction between the people who are literal dead and the people who are literally alive. And he said we who are alive and remain speaking to the Thessalonians in the 1st century.
All scripture or any historical references would need to prove Paul wrong would be to prove he died or something. But there is nothing. Just another coincendence. Paul said to the Thessalonians we who are alive, not dead, will be caught up. It cannot get any clearer.
Many Christians today still live in the period of Christs ressurection and 70ad. They can't move forward and will twist scripture to suit what they want and wont accept what scripture says, they dont believe it for what it says.
Christ told his diciples when they see the signs, no no says todays Christians its prophesy and not when the diciples jesus was talking to see all those things its when I see the signs, because they are spiritually still living in the 1st century, still in the old world.
Paul says to the Thessalonians we who are alive and remain will be caught up together. No no says todays Christians Paul was really talking to us its prophesy so we must all be caught up so it cannot have happened to Paul and the Thessalonians he was speaking with.
Last edited:
Have any seen the return of the Lord Jesus in the air with those that died (a cloud of witnesses - Heb 12:1) prior to Paul? Where in scripture is John shown the appearance of those departed saints in heaven? Do you realize that those caught up to meet Jesus in the air of 1 Thes 4:17 refers to heaven?