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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The soul of man
- Thread starter freewill
- Start date
Bill,
You state that yom means 'from dawn to dawn'. We know that is not true because of Gen 1:5 which states, 'God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day' (NIV).
So the light was called yom and 'there was evening and morning, the first yom'. So daylight was called day, evening and morning were indicators of the length of a day. There are 2 different meanings of yom here.
Now we look at Gen 2:4 (ESV): 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'.
Here we have yom referring to 'the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were created'. So these 'generations' were called yom. The Lord God created the earth and heavens in a yom. In that case, how many 'days' were included in this kind of 'yom'?
I hope you see that yom in the Bible cannot be consistently translated as a 24-hour period, even in the first 2 chapters of Genesis.
We could go throughout the OT to see that yom cannot always be translated as day - meaning a 24-hour period.
See: Genesis Clearly Teaches that the Days Were NOT 24 Hours
Oz
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Bill,
Please do not read between the lines of what I believe and how I interpret Scripture.
I do not support macro-evolution.
Micro-evolution is seen all around us from day to day. I enjoy both purple and yellow passion fruit. They were developed by micro-evolution, which is change within the species. At the moment I'm buying a couple Kensington Pride mangoes a week. Alongside of them are Calypso mangoes, but they are both varieties of mango. There are changes - micro-evolution - within the species.
Are you accusing me of 'intelligent stupidity'?
Oz
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Jason,
The challenges to YEC (young earth creationism) go beyond numerical days of Gen 1. See: Is the young earth interpretation biblically sound? (Rich Deem)
There is evidence from OT that yom with a numeric designation doesn't always indicate 24 hours:
Year
Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year." In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..." In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old." Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years." In each case, Yom represents years, not days.
Age
Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age." These range from sentences like "stricken in age," meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7). Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime. In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age." (source)
Therefore, we have biblical evidence that yom with a number does not equate to a 24-hour period. 'Thirty and two years old' does not equate to 32 days of 24 hours.
Oz
jasonc
Member
I would agree but the shabat is based of the creation week.
is the seventh day of rest, an eon? years?
the feasts of Judaism. one of which I have done is based of the timing of the moon and all of them are based to start at sunset of the first day that that sunset starts. ie sundown of Friday starts tishlev 25. then that kicks off hannukah and first day of that ends and the second candle is light on sunset of the next day. surely you know that Jews would know this , its their language.
www. Chabad.org. the religious calender is not influenced by usher and it was done before Usher. judiasm is less prone to these myriads of sects we have. they have their problems but they tend to overlook the minor issues better then we do.
the religious day will cycle and the year can be looked up
chesshan 25,5778. that's an old tradition.
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
Hi Oz, am wondering if you've read or are familiar with John Walton's work? I'm currently reading his book on Adam and Eve but this one is also on my list of must reads:
The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate
Jun 22, 2009
by John H. Walton
I highly recommend the book on Adam and Eve but the Lost World of Genesis One is even better according to a friend who has read both books. Fascinating reading.
Jason,
There is no indication in the biblical text that God's 7th day of rest (Gen 2:2) was a 24 hour period.
I note that you didn't deal with evidence I provided that gave examples of yom being associated with a number and it did not refer to a 24 hour period. I provided biblical evidence to disprove your statement: 'yom, can mean age, a day as daylight, and also 24 hours (with the numeric designation)' (#504).
I'm of the view that it's too easy to accept the YEC model because that is the one given the most publicity in evangelical churches in my part of the world. However, I find a few glitches in that view and I'm seeking answers as I not a stream of evangelical scholars and apologists who provide evidence to the contrary of YEC evidence.
Oz
Papa,
I'm not familiar with John Walton's work but I did browse the table of contents in the link you gave and read sections of a couple of chapters. Sounds like an interesting, but different, perspective.
Could you summarise briefly what his thesis is?
My son and dauther-in-law gave me an Amazon coupon for my birthday in May and I haven't spent it yet. I'm planning to purchase Michael Denton's, Evolution: Still a Theory in Crisis. He has an MD (medicine) and PhD (biochemistry), so he's not a dumbo.
This is a follow-up to his book that he wrote over 30 years ago, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. He's not a believer, but provides some stunning evidence to challenge macro-evolution.
Oz
Day 4
Genesis 1:14 KJV
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Time as we know it, appears to have started on day 4.
Day 5 would have been a 24 hour day.
Redneck
eddif
Genesis 1:14 KJV
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Time as we know it, appears to have started on day 4.
Day 5 would have been a 24 hour day.
Redneck
eddif
My salvation is by faith in Jesus. Who I can't see but believe in.So, is your faith not founded on the facts of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection?
Oz
Then Jesus told Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Many more people see the NT as lies and stories not facts. Nevertheless many do believe.
Spirit gives birth to spirit. The only one who preexisted their birth was Jesus.God forms the spirit of man within Him. Meaning in the body growing in their mothers womb.(at that time)
Jesus was formed
Then should it not follow that all days (almost without exception) would be 24 hour days after day 4? We have some sundial miracle days, but usually status quo.
Redneck
eddif
If - Just by grace - That day 5 was a 24 hour day (a day defined by what happened on day 4).
Then should it not follow that all days (almost without exception) would be 24 hour days after day 4? We have some sundial miracle days, but usually status quo.
Redneck
eddif
chessman
Member
What Scripture teaches you that Jerimaiah was Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb?
jaybird
Member
Jer 1 5
That did not answer the question I asked.
There is not a word in this verse about Jeremiah's pre-existence. It is about the eternal purposes of God for the prophet Jeremiah who was called/elected to be a prophet before he was conceived:
These are the words Jeremiah received from the Lord. Jeremiah was the son of Hilkiah. Jeremiah was one of the priests at Anathoth. That’s a town in the territory of Benjamin. 2 A message from the Lord came to Jeremiah. It came in the 13th year that Josiah was king over Judah. Josiah was the son of Amon. 3 After Josiah, his son Jehoiakim was king over Judah. The Lord’s message also came to Jeremiah during the whole time Jehoiakim ruled. The Lord continued to speak to Jeremiah while Zedekiah was king over Judah. He did this until the fifth month of the 11th year of Zedekiah’s rule. That’s when the people of Jerusalem were forced to leave their country. Zedekiah was the son of Josiah. Here is what Jeremiah said.
4 A message from the Lord came to me. The Lord said,
5 “Before I formed you in your mother’s body I chose you.
Before you were born I set you apart to serve me.
I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations" (Jer 1:1-5 NIRV).
4 A message from the Lord came to me. The Lord said,
5 “Before I formed you in your mother’s body I chose you.
Before you were born I set you apart to serve me.
I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations" (Jer 1:1-5 NIRV).
Have you heard of the attribute of the omniscience of God? See: 'What does it mean that God is omniscient?' (GotQuestions?)
Oz
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Jeremiah 1:5 KJV
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Acts 8:34 KJV
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
While it appears to be Jeremiah, it is more than likely more about Jesus than Jeremiah.
eddif
jaybird
Member
im just going with what the passage says. the Most High knew him before He was born. when the scripture says "him" i dont think its referring to nonexistance. he was ordained, how is that done when there is nothing to ordain?
jaybird
Member
i thnk we are looking at it wrong, i dont think it was Jeremiah the man, it was the true self of Jeremiah.