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Cygnus said:
NEXT.
Click to expand...
This reminds me that we should provide thoughtful responses to the discussion, lest we get removed from said discussion for not being thoughtful at all. I shouldn't have to remind the players here that it is incumbent of everyone to support their positions with scripture; not just force others to come up with it to support theirs.

Folks, we have our ToS and our Rules for Posting in the Theology Forum. Don't try and win the argument with thoughtless quips. Keep the unique rules of the Theology Forum in mind which are in place so that scripture trumps opinion.
 
MCoop said:
I’m trying to figure out where anyone on this thread teaches antinomianism. It’s common for those who teach work based salvation to accuse those of teaching the true gospel of grace to be antinomian. Which in fact both groups are deniers of the gospel and promote another. And really the self righteous law keepers deflect from facing the real issue at hand. How is one just or saved before God? By the merits of Christ or by a sinners merits? The OP is opposed to essential Christian Doctrine. That is, that salvation is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, apart from any works in any degree from the believer. The focus of obedient righteous living in a believer is the mere fruit of a saved sinner; NOT his justification before God. But many on here promote their works contribute to their justification in the end.. which is heresy! But I suspect that I’ll get the same responses of deflection of teaching antinomianism
Click to expand...
"Apart from any works" is where I have a problem.
I don't think anyone here is an antinonian.
Remarks like this does make it sound like it however.

Imagine a new Christian reading this remark.
Why would Jesus Himself say that we will be judged by our works?

Ephesians 2:10
Mathew 7:31
John 5:28-29

Paul confirmed this in Romans and 1 Corinthians.
No Bible here,. But I can post many verses by Paul.
 
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WIP said:
Thank you for your response. I like what you wrote and will really give it thought and consideration.
Click to expand...
I likewise value your opinion concerning my response,to be honest I didn't know if I would post much at all since this site seemed rather inactive.
Then again you can't be sure,some other sites are not very active yet have decent conversations.
 
Rajesh Sahu said:
Excellently explained Fizz guy:)
Click to expand...
Thank you,though I really don't take credit often because my posts tend to be holy spirit guided concerning biblical things,so thank you but Glory goes to God for when I can explain biblical things because believe it or not I have only a high school education and half the words I type just seem to appear.
 
wondering said:
Very well said.
I often say that God cannot be mocked.
The way I hear some talk about being saved scares me, I do worry that their soul is in danger, although I can't know the state of their soul, only God knows.

I like to say that Jesus is not only our savior,
But also our Lord.
Click to expand...
Amen oft times all we can do is pray for others.
 
wondering said:
Very well said.
I often say that God cannot be mocked.
The way I hear some talk about being saved scares me, I do worry that their soul is in danger, although I can't know the state of their soul, only God knows.

I like to say that Jesus is not only our savior,
But also our Lord.
Click to expand...
double post...
 
wondering said:
"Apart from any works" is where I have a problem.
I don't think anyone here is an antinonian.
Remarks like this does make it sound like it however.

Imagine a new Christian reading this remark.
Why would Jesus Himself say that we will be judged by our works?

Ephesians 2:10
Mathew 7:31
John 5:28-29

Paul confirmed this in Romans and 1 Corinthians.
No Bible here,. But I can post many verses by Paul.
Click to expand...
Yes justification has nothing to do with your works. And I see why you have a problem with it because you believe they do. Justification comes by the merits of Christ and His righteousness alone, received by faith alone.. And this I see you don’t believe either as well the OP. Because you believe your works play a role in your justification as well “with Jesus help”. And what remark are you referring to?
 
atpollard said:
Isaiah compared people to a used tampon:

Isaiah 64:6 NASB For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Click to expand...
I dont see tampon there???
 
MCoop said:
Yes justification has nothing to do with your works. And I see why you have a problem with it because you believe they do. Justification comes by the merits of Christ and His righteousness alone, received by faith alone.. And this I see you don’t believe either as well the OP. Because you believe your works play a role in your justification as well “with Jesus help”. And what remark are you referring to?
Click to expand...
There is a CAUSE and EFFECT relationship between justification and works. WORKS are NOT the cause of our justification. JUSTIFICATION is the cause of our works.

1 John 2:1-14 NASB
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

According to the Apostle John, can a person be "justified" if he has no "fruit" (like obedience or good works)?

You place such a strong emphasis on "justification by faith alone" that you make it sound like one can be "sanctified" without exhibiting any fruit of the spirit or good works. This creates the appearance that you are advocating a dead faith as equal to a saving faith:

James 2:14-26 NASB
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [fn]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
 
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MCoop said:
Yes justification has nothing to do with your works. And I see why you have a problem with it because you believe they do. Justification comes by the merits of Christ and His righteousness alone, received by faith alone.. And this I see you don’t believe either as well the OP. Because you believe your works play a role in your justification as well “with Jesus help”. And what remark are you referring to?
Click to expand...
1. Your opinion counts for nothing.
Please use scripture.

2. As usual, you don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification.
Those who believe as you do like to stop at justification. Please discover the difference.

3. I don't know what you mean by what remark I'm referring to.
Please explain...
Mathew 7:31
John 5:28-29
Epesians 2:10

The first two are by Jesus.
The last is by Paul.

Are these verses speaking about works?
 
atpollard said:
There is a CAUSE and EFFECT relationship between justification and works. WORKS are NOT the cause of our justification. JUSTIFICATION is the cause of our works.

1 John 2:1-14 NASB
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

According to the Apostle John, can a person be "justified" if he has no "fruit" (like obedience or good works)?

You place such a strong emphasis on "justification by faith alone" that you make it sound like one can be "sanctified" without exhibiting any fruit of the spirit or good works. The creates the appearance that you are advocating a dead faith as equal to a saving faith:

James 2:14-26 NASB
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [fn]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Click to expand...
:clap
 
Roro1972 said:
I dont see tampon there???
Click to expand...
Isaiah 64:6 NASB "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy (H5708) garment;

Strong's H5708
ʻêd, ayd; from an unused root meaning to set a period (compare H5710, H5749); the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:—filthy.

Online Dictionary of Biblical Usage:
I. menstruation
A. filthy rag, stained garment (fig. of best deeds of guilty people)​

A.R. Fausset Commentary
6. unclean thing--legally unclean, as a leper. True of Israel, everywhere now cut off by unbelief and by God's judgments from the congregation of the saints.
righteousness--plural, "uncleanness" extended to every particular act of theirs, even to their prayers and praises. True of the best doings of the unregenerate ( Phl 3:6-8 Tts 1:15 Hbr 11:6 ).
filthy rags--literally, a "menstruous rag" ( Lev 15:33 20:18 Lam 1:17 ).
fade. . . leaf-- ( Psa 90:5, 6 ).


So the point in Isaiah is not that our best isn't quite good enough. We are like 'unclean lepers' before a Holy God and the very BEST of our gifts to Him are like dirty, menstrual cloths. The modern equivalent of a soiled menstrual rag is a "used tampon".

Sort of puts things in perspective, don't it.
 
atpollard said:
1 John 2:1-14 NASB
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.


Doesn't John say that Jesus will "cover for us"? So whether we obey or sin, Jesus is our propitiation.
Now it also says that we will WANT TO OBEY (which is different than a 'legal' requirement to obey), and that we will obey because we know Him, the love of God is in us, and that love is being perfected.
Click to expand...
Your last sentence explains the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant.
Actually, I wouldn't know how to word salvation better than your post no. 250.
 
atpollard said:
Isaiah 64:6 NASB "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy (H5708) garment;

Strong's H5708
ʻêd, ayd; from an unused root meaning to set a period (compare H5710, H5749); the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:—filthy.

Online Dictionary of Biblical Usage:
I. menstruation
A. filthy rag, stained garment (fig. of best deeds of guilty people)​

A.R. Fausset Commentary
6. unclean thing--legally unclean, as a leper. True of Israel, everywhere now cut off by unbelief and by God's judgments from the congregation of the saints.
righteousness--plural, "uncleanness" extended to every particular act of theirs, even to their prayers and praises. True of the best doings of the unregenerate ( Phl 3:6-8 Tts 1:15 Hbr 11:6 ).
filthy rags--literally, a "menstruous rag" ( Lev 15:33 20:18 Lam 1:17 ).
fade. . . leaf-- ( Psa 90:5, 6 ).


So the point in Isaiah is not that our best isn't quite good enough. We are like 'unclean lepers' before a Holy God and the very BEST of our gifts to Him are like dirty, menstrual cloths. The modern equivalent of a soiled menstrual rag is a "used tampon".

Sort of puts things in perspective, don't it.
Click to expand...
Yes, but it's a bit crude!
Our works are as dirty rags before salvation because they count for nothing.
Only God's love for us can save us , once we believe in Him.
After that , our works have merit, as Jesus said.
We become His workers here on Earth.
Then some will ask...how many works...which works?
Irrelevant. We do our best.
 
wondering said:
Yes, but it's a bit crude!
Our works are as dirty rags before salvation because they count for nothing.
Only God's love for us can save us , once we believe in Him.
After that , our works have merit, as Jesus said.
We become His workers here on Earth.
Then some will ask...how many works...which works?
Irrelevant. We do our best.
Click to expand...
"Yes, but it's a bit crude!"
More than a bit. ;)
[Although I find that the crude roots of the Bible often help to keep me from thinking that ... "I am all that and a bag of chips."]


"Then some will ask...how many works...which works?"
Ha, then just tell them what God said in Ephesians 2:10 NASB ... the good works "which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." God asks no more and expects no less. Custom tailored by God for each individual 'workmanship'.
 
atpollard said:
There is a CAUSE and EFFECT relationship between justification and works. WORKS are NOT the cause of our justification. JUSTIFICATION is the cause of our works.

1 John 2:1-14 NASB
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

According to the Apostle John, can a person be "justified" if he has no "fruit" (like obedience or good works)?

You place such a strong emphasis on "justification by faith alone" that you make it sound like one can be "sanctified" without exhibiting any fruit of the spirit or good works. This creates the appearance that you are advocating a dead faith as equal to a saving faith:

James 2:14-26 NASB
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [fn]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Click to expand...
And where have I said that one who is justified and saved doesn’t produce the fruit of obedience unto good works? All those who have been saved by Gods grace WILL produce fruit as Ephesians 2:10 states. The elect were created for such! This is a mark of a true believer. Sanctification is a byproduct of being saved and justified. NOT THE CAUSE of justification as many on this thread push. Evidently you haven’t read any of my post. Or do you support ones works as being a cooperative effort with Christ in justification? If you do then you to believe a false gospel. The OP comes against Luther for teaching salvation through faith alone. Do you support the OP? If so then you oppose essential Christian Doctrine as many on this thread do. Those who promote dead faith are those who puff themselves up in thinking their works of obedience in any way merits justification. Justification is in Christ righteousness alone.. Do you believe this? If you do then you would never believe your works has anything to do with you being made just before God. And will give all the glory to Christ and Him alone
 
wondering said:
1. Your opinion counts for nothing.
Please use scripture.

2. As usual, you don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification.
Those who believe as you do like to stop at justification. Please discover the difference.

3. I don't know what you mean by what remark I'm referring to.
Please explain...
Mathew 7:31
John 5:28-29
Epesians 2:10

The first two are by Jesus.
The last is by Paul.

Are these verses speaking about works?
Click to expand...
No, you don’t and that’s obvious. The fact that you believe your works maintains your security for salvation proves you are resting in your own works. If salvation isn’t gained by works by the sinner, how can His works maintain and keep him saved? If you support in losing your salvation then you make the cross of Christ of no value. This is common with denying Gods Sovereignty in salvation and the work of Christ in saving the elect. If you see justification in a synergistic way, then you push a works based salvation. Which is another gospel Paul anathematized in coming against those who promote what you and others teach, in the book of Galatians
 
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