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The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

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chessman said:
When do they become demon possessed?
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Of course the Bible doesn't address this, so the question is immaterial.

And where does the Bible say they are humans?
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By the description of where the beast and fp come from: the sea and the earth. That's NOT where demons come from.

It is a head slain by the sword which appears as if death occurs to the Beast which the false prophet ‘heals’ and deceives the people into thinking he has healing powers.
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Nice try, but there are no quote or any other marks around the word healed in Scripture. Therefore, the wound actually heals.

And, how would one actually wound a demon? Can they be wounded, whether to death or not? I say not.

It’s a head slain by the sword.
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Go ahead and try that on a demon and see how far you get.

Besides ‘Bible scholars’ saying that beasts rising from the Sea and Earth represents humans and frogs coming out of beasts’ mouths represents demon possessed humans (two out of three times but evidently not out of Dragon mouths) where do you get the idea from Scripture that the Beast and the False Prophet are humans?
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I've given you everything that informs me of that. I've held nothing back.

There's more evidence for the beast and fp being human than demons.
 
chessman said:
Let’s see indeed where Scripture says they come from:

And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. And they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
...
And he [the Dragon] stood on the sand of the sea.
And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast ...and the dragon gave it his power and his throne and great authority.
...
And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he was speaking like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast on behalf of him, and he causes the earth and those who live in it to worship the first beast whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performs great signs, so that he even causes fire from heaven to come down to the earth before people. And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it has been granted to him to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and yet lived.​
Revelation 12:7-9,17-13:2,11-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 12:7-9,17-13:2,11-14&version=LEB

The Dragon and his angels where thrown down to Earth from Heaven after fighting with Michael and his angels. Simple.
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That's one explanation. But the Bible uses "sea" to describe humanity as well.

What you're not able to explain is how a demon gets any kind of wound, whether fatal or not. That's probably the biggest fact.
 
gr8grace3 said: ↑
Where does this man fit in then?

2 Thess 2:3~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
chessman said:
Were it fits. Evil man. The SON OF destruction.
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The verse speaks of the anti-christ, or better known as the beast, who rules the world during the Tribulation. And the Bible calls him "the MAN of lawlessness.

I'm glad that gr8grace3 thought of this verse.
 
FreeGrace said:
Both demons and humans are capable of performing signs.
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Yet John (not me) says that it is demons who are performing THESE signs:

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty. “Behold — I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one keeping-watch, and keeping his garments in order that he not be walking-around naked and they see his shame”.​
Revelation 16:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14-15&version=DLNT

FreeGrace said:
This does not describe where demons come from.
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Sure it does.

chessman said:
And the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
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FreeGrace said:
He didn't call them either.
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Again, he says it is demons performing these signs.

FreeGrace said:
As I said, I cannot explain that. Just as you cannot explain why any fallen angel would be described as coming from "the sea" or "from the earth".
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Sure I can and did. Because they were thrown down to the Earth.

FreeGrace said:
Once again, please cite any scholar who believes that these 3 are all demons.
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Bible scholarJohn the Apostle cited here:

And I saw another beast coming-up out of the land. And he had two horns like a lamb. And he was speaking like a dragon. And he does great signs, so that he even makes fire to come-down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of the people.​
Revelation 13:11,13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:11,13&version=DLNT

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty. “Behold — I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one keeping-watch, and keeping his garments in order that he not be walking-around naked and they see his shame”.​
Revelation 16:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14-15&version=DLNT
 
Free said:
There you go. It's not I who is not reading the thread. Nowhere did I condemn Mounce.
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Yes, there I go, recognizing you in that moment weren't in a place to comprehend Mounce. Which was fully on topic and elucidated quite a bit about Hell.
 
chessman said:
Were it fits. Evil man. The SON OF destruction.

and that we may be delivered from out-of-place and evil people. For faith is not possessed by everyone.​
2 Thessalonians 3:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 3:2&version=DLNT

If the above Scripture leads someone to yield to this Scripture ⬆️ that says that there are evil (out-of-place) people in the world, then shouldn’t that same method lead someone to believe it is demons doing the signs of John’s visions from the following Scripture?

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​
Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT
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I agree with you that it is demons that are ultimately doing these signs........but it is through a willing human being.Just as the old saying goes........'they sold their soul to the devil.'

Hence, "the man of lawlessness."

2 Thess 2:3~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
 
gr8grace3 said:
I agree with you that it is demons that are ultimately doing these signs........but it is through a willing human being.Just as the old saying goes........'they sold their soul to the devil.'

Hence, "the man of lawlessness."

2 Thess 2:3~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Click to expand...
Makes sense.
This is why I pointed out that he heads and horns of the Beast and False Prophet represents kings (humans).
But the point is, the Beasts themselves are demons.
 
FreeGrace said:
Of course the Bible doesn't address this, so the question is immaterial.
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If the Bible doesn’t address that The Beast and The False Prophet are demon possessed humans, then I guess John was right. It is demons performing these signs.

FreeGrace said:
By the description of where the beast and fp come from: the sea and the earth. That's NOT where demons come from.
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It’s were these demons (cast down from Heaven) “arise” from.

FreeGrace said:
Nice try, but there are no quote or any other marks around the word healed in Scripture. Therefore, the wound actually heals.
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I know. But the death only appears to be death. [Are you aware of what False religion teaches Jesus only appears to die?]

And one of its heads appeared as though slaughtered to death, and its fatal wound had been healed. And the whole earth was astonished and followed after the beast.​
Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=LEB

FreeGrace said:
And, how would one actually wound a demon?
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One can seize them:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and the one seated on it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justice he judges and makes war. Now his eyes were a flame of fire, and on his head were many royal headbands having a name written that no one except he himself knows. And he was dressed in an outer garment dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God.
...
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war with the one who is seated on the horse and with his army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs before him, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.​
Revelation 19:11-13,19-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 19:11-13,19-20&version=LEB

FreeGrace said:
Can they be wounded, whether to death or not? I say not.
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IDK.

FreeGrace said:
Go ahead and try that on a demon and see how far you get.
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I’ll let the One with His Sharp Sword do that.

FreeGrace said:
There's more evidence for the beast and fp being human than demons.
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No there’s direct Scripture stating it is these demons who are performing the signs in John’s visions.

FreeGrace said:
That's one explanation. But the Bible uses "sea" to describe humanity as well.

What you're not able to explain is how a demon gets any kind of wound, whether fatal or not. That's probably the biggest fact.
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Easy. It was one of the signs granted to him to perform on behalf of The Beast.

And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it has been granted to him to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and yet lived.​
Revelation 13:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:14&version=LEB

Can any human grant another human the ability to cut off his head with a sword and live? Explain that!
 
chessman said:
Makes sense.
This is why I pointed out that he heads and horns of the Beast and False Prophet represents kings (humans).
But the point is, the Beasts themselves are demons.
Click to expand...
Agreed. But there is a 'but.':chin

We don't ever see the beast separated from it's 'home' or that willing human being when cast into the LoF. The humanity of the beast is of the utmost importance for the devil and for us to see.Because the beast is satans pseudo Christ.

Hence, the man of lawlessness is known as the son of destruction. In Rev 17 we see the beast as rising or being born unto destruction.

New American Standard Bible
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
 
FreeGrace said:
I said:
"Yet, Rev 20:10-15 shows that all of lost humanity (those who don't possess eternal life) will be thrown into the same lake of fire as the dragon, beast and false prophet.
I believe Rev 20:10-15 gives us a clear picture of what will happen with unsaved humanity.
I don't see this in Scripture. If an unsaved soul will cease to exist after this life, what fear is there of eternity for them? None at all."

Consider Rev 20:12- And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I disagree with you as does Scripture.


Scripture has already told us what happens to the unsaved. Because they don't possess eternal life, they will be cast into the lake of fire, which we know will exist for ever and ever, per Rev 20:10.
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I was thinking, that actually ofcourse the fire lasts forever and some being are tortured forever,
because we are told they are.
Now to assume that which we are not told about is also happening when Jesus states the soul
will be destroyed in the lake of fire, suggest to me the soul will be destroyed. I have never heard of
something that is destroyed still existing, because you would say it is tormented, or beaten, or
contorted etc. because this implies it still exists, but has things done to it.

Now as some being are described as being tormented forever, this means the flames last forever.
But to say this means some are not eternally destroyed, rather than eternally tormented does not
make sense as these are the words used. I think we fear getting such things wrong because this
is based only on Gods word. We do not need to know Gods word to know all die. It is self evident.

But all I can say is blessing to you all, because His heart will be revealed to all as we dwell with
Him, and it is this dwelling that matters, not our current views or understanding, as these invariably
grow and change as the Lord teaches us. God bless you in His love.
 
PeterJens said:
I was thinking, that actually ofcourse the fire lasts forever and some being are tortured forever,
because we are told they are.
Now to assume that which we are not told about is also happening when Jesus states the soul
will be destroyed in the lake of fire, suggest to me the soul will be destroyed. I have never heard of
something that is destroyed still existing, because you would say it is tormented, or beaten, or
contorted etc. because this implies it still exists, but has things done to it.

Now as some being are described as being tormented forever, this means the flames last forever.
But to say this means some are not eternally destroyed, rather than eternally tormented does not
make sense as these are the words used. I think we fear getting such things wrong because this
is based only on Gods word. We do not need to know Gods word to know all die. It is self evident.

But all I can say is blessing to you all, because His heart will be revealed to all as we dwell with
Him, and it is this dwelling that matters, not our current views or understanding, as these invariably
grow and change as the Lord teaches us. God bless you in His love.
Click to expand...
You are guilty of the same error, on a lessor level I pray, that the Atheist is guilty of. You are attempting to reason with the Spirit God that is of unlimited power and ability on the human level, that will never float a boat and it sure as the Devil is real will not fly my Helicopter. God must be dealt with supernaturally.
 
chessman said:
Can you reword this⬆️. It don’t understand what you mean.
What ‘home’?
and
What willing human being’?
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From scripture, a demon needs a home to operate from. And that is a willing human being.

Matt 12~~43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds itunoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”

I could not tell you who the willing human being is going to be for the pseudo christ. But it is going to be a man from somewhere.
 
chessman said:
Makes sense.
This is why I pointed out that he heads and horns of the Beast and False Prophet represents kings (humans).
But the point is, the Beasts themselves are demons.
Click to expand...

I think so too. Real demons.
There is a spiritual war going on, so keep your eyes open and your sword sharp.
 
Hell is quite a topic. Sheol is saying we're removed from God's presence forever. But when dead we're a soul uncased. How then can we be removed from the source of that soul? Ever?
 
sunfly said:
Hell is quite a topic. Sheol is saying we're removed from God's presence forever. But when dead we're a soul uncased. How then can we be removed from the source of that soul? Ever?
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By a resurrection body. The unbelieving have a resurrection body that can and will suffer the eternal consequence's of eternal death.

Believers have a body fit for eternal life.

Unbelievers have a body fit for eternal death.

Acts 24:15~~New American Standard Bible
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
 
chessman said:
I know. But the death only appears to be death. [Are you aware of what False religion teaches Jesus only appears to die?]
Click to expand...
Of course. The Bible does NOT speak of an apparent wound. It does speak of a wound that healed.

Now, explain how an angel can be wounded, and how this wound heals in angels. They are eternal beings.

And one of its heads appeared as though slaughtered to death, and its fatal wound had been healed. And the whole earth was astonished and followed after the beast.
Click to expand...
​
Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=LEB
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Hm. "its fatal wound HAD BEEN HEALED". OK. Explain how that is applicable to angels.

I asked this:
"Can they be wounded, whether to death or not? I say not."
IDK.
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The Bible doesn't say. But we know that angels are eternal beings. So it simply makes no sense to think they can be wounded at all.

Can any human grant another human the ability to cut off his head with a sword and live? Explain that!
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I don't have to. I've never said a human grants another human the ability to cut off anyone's head.

And humans don't need to be "granted the ability" to do that. ISIS has been doing that for a long time. No one had to grant them the ability to do that.

All it takes is a sharp knife or sword. No "ability" has to be granted.
 
chessman said:
I’m not following the evidence (whether Biblical or reasoned) for your specific claim on this particular point. Can you clarify, please, why you think no one could ever know (I mean literally know) what their punishment will be: Just for an example of how inaccurate this statement is, do you mean we will NEVER know (as in literally never, post-judgment) or that Jesus doesn’t literally know what their punishment will be?

Do you think the city of Sodom (for example) was not literally destroyed as an example of their punishment we should know? [I think it’s a perfectly literal and reasonable example, which is why Peter and Jude used it.]

as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.​
Jude 1:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Jude 1:7&version=LEB

Do you think there are not people who can (and have done so) literally kill the body? [I think there are literal murderes that kill the body but not the soul, which is why Jesus gives us this ⬇️ perfectly understandable, and literal example.]

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​
Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=LEB

Where (and more importantly why) does Jesus’ statement above ⬆️ turn from being a very literal example (murder of the body only) to being non literal on your understanding of the punishment (Hell)? Seems to me it’s all literal. Very literal.

But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.​
Revelation 21:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 21:8&version=LEB

Why do you not believe “their share in the Lake of fire” ⬆️ or as Jesus said other places “cast into Hell”, is not literally their “second death” consisting quite literally of the destruction of their body and soul in Hell?

I understand there are metaphors and symbolism throughout Revelation (to include the vision of a “Lake of Fire”). And they can be deep and tricky to literalize at times when the authors don’t do so. BUT at times, Jesus (and His prophets in other Texts) tells the literal meaning of these visions/metaphors. Rev 21:8 is just such a time. Daniel is literally told what dreams mean, etc.
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Those whose names are found in the Lambs Book of Life will never experience the lake of fire, but those who are not found in the Lambs Book of Life their judgement and sentence will be that of the lake of fire as a place of horrific torment with the descriptions that are given throughout scripture. Whether it is literal of fire and brimstone like Sodom and Gomorrah burning I do not know as all I know it is a place of torment and eternal separation from God as none of us whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will never know what it would actually look like and I for one do not want to know.
 
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