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Mike said:
Are you suggesting that God put his confidence in Judas, then things went south, so He gave up on him and had to improvise His plan of salvation? I guess we simply have different views of the authority, omniscience, and control of God. As for me, I'll agree to disagree.

Be blessed, brother. :)
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God's plan of salvation is the same, it's judas who forfeited it. To say Judas was not a christian is to say Judas was not a disciple. It is common sense that God would require Christians to be disciples. If one could be satan for God's glory, why not two? Or four? I realize most christian resources do not believe Judas was saved, because most parachurch ministries are OSAS, once saved always saved. Which is not really what the Bible says. HEbrews 6:4 says that certain sins can remove salvation. Namely sins that are practiced, and Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:32. Imperfection will not keep us out of heaven but there are ways that sin can deceive us in a way that makes us doubt what Christ did for us on the cross, and reverting our soteriology, can roll back salvation. God will not force salvation on anyone. If I as a christian decide to walk away from Christ, then God will not force me into those pearly gates. He will eventually give up on me as He did with Judas. I have many many verses to share, at least a hundred that mentions repentance as a requirement for salvation, if we decide one day that repentance is no longer needed, and we live in constant sin, going to bars, sleeping with prostitutes, buying drugs, and die in that state, I would never refer to that person as a christian, even though at one point they were in fact saved. As hebrews 6 says, they tasted of the heavenly gift. Then spewed it out.
 
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for_his_glory said:
I never said God predestines anyone to hell. I did say in post 20 God has predestined from the foundation of the world who are His and the rest will have their hearts hardened for Gods purpose that through his great power and authority in His chastisements others may fear the wrath of God and turn back to Him.
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in post 28 you did say God predestined to hell : " they of disobedience are predestined to hell unless they turn repent and turn back to God."

Now if you didn't mean what you wrote then I am sorry, what then, did you mean?

here is the original post:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-us-romans-1-26-2-1.72060/page-2#post-1393817

I rather believe predestination only to Biblically refer to those who are going to heaven, predestination never in the Bible refers negatively toward those being damned.
 
MCoop said:
Foreseen faith is not what foreknew means. Mathew 7:23 speaks on how those who were cast out because God never knew them. This speaks of a love set upon a sinner and favor in terms of a relationship God ordained from eternity past. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;). So foreseen faith or obedience had nothing to do for whom God bestows mercy upon. If that’s the case then salvation is of works.. and nullifies grace. Much could be said of this passage but this pretty much explains election and those predestined unto eternal life and those not. As in the case of Jeremiah, before I formed thee I knew thee..
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then please define foreknowledge, I exhausted my definition in my posts...referring to God's nature as being outside of time. He sees ahead of time everything we do. Do you not believe that God has the ability to literally "know before" everything that we do? If this is not foreknowledge, then I don't know what is.
 
godsquadgeek said:
in post 28 you did say God predestined to hell : " they of disobedience are predestined to hell unless they turn repent and turn back to God."

Now if you didn't mean what you wrote then I am sorry, what then, did you mean?

here is the original post:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-us-romans-1-26-2-1.72060/page-2#post-1393817

I rather believe predestination only to Biblically refer to those who are going to heaven, predestination never in the Bible refers negatively toward those being damned.
Click to expand...

Those who are not of God as they love the world more and reject God have already predestined themselves by their own choices they have made while here on this earth as already being damned by God. Hope that makes it clearer.
 
godsquadgeek said:
then please define foreknowledge, I exhausted my definition in my posts...referring to God's nature as being outside of time. He sees ahead of time everything we do. Do you not believe that God has the ability to literally "know before" everything that we do? If this is not foreknowledge, then I don't know what is.
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Of course He knows all things. But His knowing all things is the result of ordaining all things, as the word foreknowledge appears in scripture in Acts and 1Peter. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:10. What does it mean for God to be Sovereign?
 
MCoop said:
Of course He knows all things. But His knowing all things is the result of ordaining all things, as the word foreknowledge appears in scripture in Acts and 1Peter. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:10. What does it mean for God to be Sovereign?
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so if God ordains all things, then there is no free will in your view. If there is no free will then there is no point to believe or repent for God will do both for us. If you believe in free will, then how do you at the same time believe God ordains all things?
 
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godsquadgeek said:
God's plan of salvation is the same, it's judas who forfeited it. To say Judas was not a christian is to say Judas was not a disciple. It is common sense that God would require Christians to be disciples. If one could be satan for God's glory, why not two? Or four? I realize most christian resources do not believe Judas was saved, because most parachurch ministries are OSAS, once saved always saved. Which is not really what the Bible says. HEbrews 6:4 says that certain sins can remove salvation. Namely sins that are practiced, and Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:32. Imperfection will not keep us out of heaven but there are ways that sin can deceive us in a way that makes us doubt what Christ did for us on the cross, and reverting our soteriology, can roll back salvation. God will not force salvation on anyone. If I as a christian decide to walk away from Christ, then God will not force me into those pearly gates. He will eventually give up on me as He did with Judas. I have many many verses to share, at least a hundred that mentions repentance as a requirement for salvation, if we decide one day that repentance is no longer needed, and we live in constant sin, going to bars, sleeping with prostitutes, buying drugs, and die in that state, I would never refer to that person as a christian, even though at one point they were in fact saved. As hebrews 6 says, they tasted of the heavenly gift. Then spewed it out.
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God did not give up on Judas as he gave up on God in exchange for greed. eventually killing himself. Judas was a disciple, but not a Spiritually born again Christian, but only numbered among the twelve as he only obtained part of Gods ministry, Acts 1:16, 17, but was never prepared for it by being indwelled with the Holy Spirit first and then sent out into the world as he was already dead before they were all gathered to the upper room before being sent out to preach, .Acts chapter 2.

A disciple is a follower of Christ as in the twelve before Judas sold out Christ and an Apostle is one indwelled with the Holy Spirit anointed by the Spirit of God to preach the Gospel of grace throughout the world.
 
for_his_glory said:
God did not give up on Judas as he gave up on God in exchange for greed. eventually killing himself. Judas was a disciple, but not a Spiritually born again Christian, but only numbered among the twelve as he only obtained part of Gods ministry, Acts 1:16, 17, but was never prepared for it by being indwelled with the Holy Spirit first and then sent out into the world as he was already dead before they were all gathered to the upper room before being sent out to preach, .Acts chapter 2.

A disciple is a follower of Christ as in the twelve before Judas sold out Christ and an Apostle is one indwelled with the Holy Spirit anointed by the Spirit of God to preach the Gospel of grace throughout the world.
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why would God put satan in with the elect? By choice? When there are so many other ways to do it. Why let people blame Himself for Judas act, instead of blame Judas? After all God is sovereign yes? And nothing that is done is out of His power? Why let the world be able to blame Him? Which is what would be the case if Judas had no free will leave salvation.
 
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godsquadgeek said:
why would God put satan in with the elect? By choice? When there are so many other ways to do it.
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God didn't put Satan in with the elect as Satan entered the door of greed Judas had opened for Satan to enter in as Judas was never part of the elect and was used as an instrument of Satan for the purpose fulfilling how the chief priest and scribes could do away with Jesus, Luke 22:1-6.

First off Judas was only numbered and was never going to be the elect of God as the other disciples were. God already knew ahead of time (foreknew) what Judas would do as Gods purpose to fulfilled the prophecy of David, Acts 1:16; Psalms 41:9.
 
for_his_glory said:
God didn't put Satan in with the elect as Satan entered the door of greed Judas had opened for Satan to enter in as Judas was never part of the elect and was used as an instrument of Satan for the purpose fulfilling how the chief priest and scribes could do away with Jesus, Luke 22:1-6.

First off Judas was only numbered and was never going to be the elect of God as the other disciples were. God already knew ahead of time (foreknew) what Judas would do as Gods purpose to fulfilled the prophecy of David, Acts 1:16; Psalms 41:9.
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No, the scriptures always called Judas a disciple, and thus Christian, please use scripture to prove otherwise.
 
godsquadgeek said:
so if God ordains all things, then there is no free will in your view. If there is no free will then there is no point to believe or repent for God will do both for us. If you believe in free will, then how do you at the same time believe God ordains all things?
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The Bible teaches God is absolutely Sovereign and has decreed all things. I don’t believe nor does Gods Word teach that mans will is autonomous. Mans volition is in subjection to his nature. Apart from being made alive by the life giving power of the resurrection of Christ by His Spirit, no man dead in his sin will come or can come to Christ in faith. A faithful and repented heart is the result of regeneration. So to believe in libertarian free will is to deny that God is sovereign
 
Mike said:
Are you suggesting that God put his confidence in Judas, then things went south, so He gave up on him and had to improvise His plan of salvation? I guess we simply have different views of the authority, omniscience, and control of God. As for me, I'll agree to disagree.

Be blessed, brother. :)
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for_his_glory said:
God didn't put Satan in with the elect as Satan entered the door of greed Judas had opened for Satan to enter in as Judas was never part of the elect and was used as an instrument of Satan for the purpose fulfilling how the chief priest and scribes could do away with Jesus, Luke 22:1-6.

First off Judas was only numbered and was never going to be the elect of God as the other disciples were. God already knew ahead of time (foreknew) what Judas would do as Gods purpose to fulfilled the prophecy of David, Acts 1:16; Psalms 41:9.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about Judas. Now pretend to be God ( in a non idolatrous fashion) for a minute. Say you created a perfect group of people strong enough to get the job done but weak enough to be seen as everyday people. Now when Judas was chosen to be a disciple he was a friend. The prophecy in the psalms about betrayal by a friend, means He trusted him. "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
(Psalms 41:9)

Now again, thinking from the realm of God, why or how rather, could you be betrayed by someone who was never a believer to begin with? Betrayed means that something happened from good to bad. Judas in my opinion was saved, and thus being apostate is the only way to truly betray Christ. IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss?
 
MCoop said:
The Bible teaches God is absolutely Sovereign and has decreed all things. I don’t believe nor does Gods Word teach that mans will is autonomous. Mans volition is in subjection to his nature. Apart from being made alive by the life giving power of the resurrection of Christ by His Spirit, no man dead in his sin will come or can come to Christ in faith. A faithful and repented heart is the result of regeneration. So to believe in libertarian free will is to deny that God is sovereign
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God's very call to salvation depends on our cooperation. So who repents in our salvation? God or man? Does God repent for us, to save us? Or do we make a free will decision to follow Christ no matter what the cost? Even if it means forsaking family, and/or wealth? When He said, "take up your cross and follow Me" was He Himself doing the act of taking it up? Or does He expect us to taste of the heavenly gift, and thus turn toward the light, and to repent of wicked behavior, and to put on Holiness? Does God's sovereignty do these acts, or does man cooperate in the matter?
 
MCoop said:
A faithful and repented heart is the result of regeneration.
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wait, are you saying that regeneration causes repentance? I believe I have dozens of scripture that say that repentance precedes salvation. here is one book's take on it, first John:

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth it not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. “

1 John 2:3-5


“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”-1 John 2:29



“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” -1 John 2:6-7


18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18


“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father in not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”-1 John 2:15-17
 
godsquadgeek said:
No, the scriptures always called Judas a disciple, and thus Christian, please use scripture to prove otherwise.
Click to expand...

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (There were only eleven until Matthew was added to replace Judas)

There are three groups as one is a disciple of Christ the other a follower of Christ and an Apostle of Christ. A follower is one who hears the teachings like that of the crowds (congregation) that followed after Jesus and a disciple means a student of Jesus as in the twelve that walked with Christ apart from the crowds. An Apostle is one who is commissioned by God and indwelled with the Holy Spirit before being sent out to preach the Gospel.

Notice the great commission in Matthew 28:16-20, especially vs. 16 which says then the eleven disciples as Judas was already dead before Christ gave them the great commission and this was not to be carried out until Christ had ascended up to heaven and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell the eleven, in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.
 
godsquadgeek said:
I was thinking about Judas. Now pretend to be God ( in a non idolatrous fashion) for a minute. Say you created a perfect group of people strong enough to get the job done but weak enough to be seen as everyday people. Now when Judas was chosen to be a disciple he was a friend. The prophecy in the psalms about betrayal by a friend, means He trusted him. "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
(Psalms 41:9)

Now again, thinking from the realm of God, why or how rather, could you be betrayed by someone who was never a believer to begin with? Betrayed means that something happened from good to bad. Judas in my opinion was saved, and thus being apostate is the only way to truly betray Christ. IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss?
Click to expand...

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There is no way I could pretend to be God even as an example to prove your point so I will not go there with you.

There is your problem is that it's your opinion about Judas being saved even though I have given you scripture that says different so apparently you are ignoring those scriptures as you have already made up your mind he was.
 
for_his_glory said:
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (There were only eleven until Matthew was added to replace Judas)

There are three groups as one is a disciple of Christ the other a follower of Christ and an Apostle of Christ. A follower is one who hears the teachings like that of the crowds (congregation) that followed after Jesus and a disciple means a student of Jesus as in the twelve that walked with Christ apart from the crowds. An Apostle is one who is commissioned by God and indwelled with the Holy Spirit before being sent out to preach the Gospel.

Notice the great commission in Matthew 28:16-20, especially vs. 16 which says then the eleven disciples as Judas was already dead before Christ gave them the great commission and this was not to be carried out until Christ had ascended up to heaven and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell the eleven, in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.
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so you believe they were not saved before they went to antioch, how odd. However if you believe they were not called Christians before antioch, that would be arbitrary and splitting hairs. I was saying that they were saved in order to be disciples. Surely you agree with that?
 
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for_his_glory said:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There is no way I could pretend to be God even as an example to prove your point so I will not go there with you.

There is your problem is that it's your opinion about Judas being saved even though I have given you scripture that says different so apparently you are ignoring those scriptures as you have already made up your mind he was.
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you refuse to answer the questions I bring to the table. So here it is again: IF one never believed, to begin with. Or if Judas was never saved, then the prophesy about trust would be wrong Psalm 41:9, for Jesus would not have trusted him. After all would you trust someone who you knew ahead of time would betray you with a kiss? It would be impossible for Christ to trust someone that He knew for a fact would betray him, unless He (Christ) did at one point trust Him and if at one point, Judas was open to believing in Christ. For is it possible to trust one, if they do not have truth residing in them?
 
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godsquadgeek said:
What do you call it when "God hardens hearts " as in pharoah? I call it giving up on them.
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Or judgement for their own wickedness. And God glorified His name and showed faithfulness to His promise to His servant Abraham. Pharaoh reacted with anger to Gods command as God knew Pharaohs heart. As you see Pharaoh had become conceited in His self thought importance and did not realize God had his life in His hands. Like in REV those punished cursed God rather than repenting.

It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
Randy said:
Or judgement for their own wickedness. And God glorified His name and showed faithfulness to His promise to His servant Abraham. Pharaoh reacted with anger to Gods command as God knew Pharaohs heart. As you see Pharaoh had become conceited in His self thought importance and did not realize God had his life in His hands. Like in REV those punished cursed God rather than repenting.

It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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So God hardens us according to our own wickedness, I agree. Many here do not agree with that. But in Romans 1 it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind.
 
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