Bible Study JESUS OUR EXAMPLE and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

Jim Parker said:

I am going to try once more to show you that you are completely mistaken.

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Jim Parker said:

(1)
Isa 66:22-23 (Often quoted to me by 7th Day Adventists with the same lack of understanding of language as you have demonstrated))
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

"From one Sabbath to another" is a restatement of the concept of "from one New Moon to another."
The repetition of the concept of "from one to another" is used to emphasize the point.
And the point is NOT that "all flesh" will worship before God on EACH Sabbath but "every day from one Sabbath to another." That includes every day in between and NOT just the Sabbaths.
IN the New Earth, all of mankind will worship God just as the angels do now: 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. NOT JUST ON THE SABBATHS.
(2)
Sabbath worship is very definitely NOT "all through both the OLD and NEW Testament".
The exact opposite is the case.
IN chapter 15 of Acts (to which I have referred you at least twice) Gentile believers are specifically told that they are not required to be circumcised and keep the Law (which includes the Sabbath).

Saying that Christians are required to keep the Law you contradict the express statement of scripture.
That is the very definition of heresy.

Here is the word of God once more.

Act 15:23-29
They wrote this letter by them:

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Jim Parker said:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
that you abstain from things offered to idols,
from blood,
from things strangled,
and from sexual immorality.
If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

So the Church leaders at Jerusalem, including Peter, John, James the brother of the Lord, wrote a letter to the Gentile believers telling them that they are NOT required to keep the Sabbath.

Also, Paul told the church at Colossae; "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths," (Col 2:16)

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Hello Jim,

Everything you have presented in your posts above, I have already adressed with the scriptures in this thread. You seem to be only repeating the same thing but without answering any of my rebuttal posts to you. I did not find this post of yours a very friendly one and a litle belittling with the opening section of your post.

I do not wish to argue the point here with you because I wish to follow the TOS of the forum and this is the bible study section of the forum. I want to follow abide by the advice provided by Reba and others here and respect the forum rules to keep this thread open.

If you are confident in what you believe I would however like to leave this bible study topic open for discussion here in the bible study section of the forum and put out a challenge to you to debate this topic with me on the Sabbath and the 10 Commandments in the debate section of the Forum for all to see. Do you accept this invitation YES/NO? You can PM me if you like.

If you would like to continue here in the bible study thread you are welcome, however, lets discuss the topic without resorting to belittling others, follow the TOS sharing God's Word and not in an argumentive manner.

Thankyou in advance my friend for respecting this bible studythread and the TOS here.

LoveGodsWord said:

You seem to be only repeating the same thing

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Because you consistently ignore what the scripture says about Gentiles no being required to keep the law while you push your law keeping heresy.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Papa Zoom,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry if my posts have been a little long for you. My background I guess when I am studying God's Word is to share as much scripture on a topic as possible so people have as much information in the scriptures to make an intelligent decision on the topic being discussed.

I am also a member of a few other forums. Christian Chat and also the other Chrsitain Forums. At these sites what we tend to do is start with a complete topic or bible study (unrestricted) then discuss the topic within the thread. Thanks for your thoughts here I wish to be a good member and abide by the TOS and will seek to do so. I really appreciate your feedback as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciated them.

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This site is not those sights . Please ,,

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Papa Zoom,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry if my posts have been a little long for you. My background I guess when I am studying God's Word is to share as much scripture on a topic as possible so people have as much information in the scriptures to make an intelligent decision on the topic being discussed.

I am also a member of a few other forums. Christian Chat and also the other Chrsitain Forums. At these sites what we tend to do is start with a complete topic or bible study (unrestricted) then discuss the topic within the thread. Thanks for your thoughts here I wish to be a good member and abide by the TOS and will seek to do so. I really appreciate your feedback as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciated them.

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I tend to get lost in long posts. Bite size pieces are better in my opinion. Build on those small pieces until the whole comes into view. Perhaps it's the teacher in me.

I teach guitar and only give the student the next level of learning. If it's theory, I give an introduction and then build upon that and then build upon that. Repetition is the mother of understanding. Such is good pedagogy. Also, smaller (or introductory) ideas are easier to examine than huge portions of explanations. After all, we can only examine things one piece at a time.

That said, I have been influenced to examine the role of the Sabbath in the life of the Christian. And more than that, but the purpose and role of the Sabbath in general. Yesterday was my Sabbath rest, which I took faithfully (even though I did the dishes which is my service to God for my wife) and I focused on God much of the day. Up at 6, devotions and readings until about 8:30. Then helping my wife (she gets up then). Church, home, lunch, and then the afternoon just spent relaxing and refreshing my mind and body. That included a small nap.

I'm not legalistic about a Sabbath. But the body needs rest and the Sabbath was made for man. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Just some thoughts as I continue to ponder the idea of the Sabbath. I don't mind the challenge you offer.

If someone doesn't observe or "take" a Sabbath rest, I would encourage them as it's good for us physically, mentally, and perhaps most importantly, spiritually.

For that matter, mini "Sabbaths" throughout the week are equally important. Pull back, focus and center on God and His wonderful Love for us. Meditate on His Word and contemplate what His Love and His Word means for our daily lives.

In Christ, ~Papa

Jim Parker said:

The Sabatarian poster is teaching the heresy which Paul refuted in his letter to the Galatians and which the council of Jerusalem refuted at Acts 15.
The New Testament (the one which teaches about Christianity rather than the Old Testament which taught about Judaism) teaches us that love is the fulfillment of the Law. That's why it is written on our hearts rather than memorized in our heads.
Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

No sabbath keeping; just love one another and your neighbor.
And, yes, God designed man so that he needs to take one day off out of 7 on which to do no work. (Women too!)

iakov the fool

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I understand your point and think it's worth considering. But I am enjoying exploring this topic just the same and have decided to take that day of rest for my own well being. I'm not legalistic about it. But I am practical. A day of rest is good for us. Today I will do work (around the house). There's lots to do. I will work on something everyday, but on Sunday, I'm resting. It's like God has given me permission to take that day and rest. I still have "work" to do (as cooking and cleaning up the mess) so I'm not hung up on the work thing.

I would not promote the Sabbath as a must to follow. I've just decided that I'm going to look at this topic and consider how I might learn more about it. And I'll let the Spirit of God lead me into a deeper understanding. Besides, part of my "Sabbath" is spending time with Him. So it has good aspects - for my good. ;) In Christ, ~Papa

Jim Parker said:

The Sabatarian poster is teaching the heresy which Paul refuted in his letter to the Galatians and which the council of Jerusalem refuted at Acts 15.
The New Testament (the one which teaches about Christianity rather than the Old Testament which taught about Judaism) teaches us that love is the fulfillment of the Law. That's why it is written on our hearts rather than memorized in our heads.
Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

No sabbath keeping; just love one another and your neighbor.
And, yes, God designed man so that he needs to take one day off out of 7 on which to do no work. (Women too!)
iakov the fool

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Hello Jim, Sharing God's Word is not heresy. It is an interesting concept though. The mainstream teachers in the days of Jesus thought Jesus was teaching heresy as well and that he had a devil and his followers were a cult. (John 7:20; 8:52; 10:20; Matt 11:18; Matt 12:27; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15; 19; Matt 10:25; Acts 28:22). It is interesting all through history God's people have always been only a remnant. God's professed people even killed God's own prophets (Luke 11:47), Jesus (Matt 7:23); the disciples and apostles (Acts 7:54-60; 12:2).

Even after this all through time, history records God's people only being a remnent that is persectuted for their faith fortold by Jesus many years earlier (Luke 21:12; John 15:20).

There is nothing new under the Sun. As it has been so will it be to the close of time with the war against the Word of God and remnant who proclaim it

Revelations 12
17, And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT IF HER SEED, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 14
12, Here is the PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

and is why Jesus says; IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (John 14:15)

Jim Parker said:

The New Testament (the one which teaches about Christianity rather than the Old Testament which taught about Judaism) teaches us that love is the fulfillment of the Law. That's why it is written on our hearts rather than memorized in our heads.
Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

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Love is indeed the fulfilling (doing) of God's LAW you leave out CONTEXT of the scriptures explaining this....

Romans 13
8, Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10, Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

This is why Jesus says; on these two commandments (Love to God and our neighbor) Hang ALL the LAW and the Prophets (Matt 22:36-40)

Jim Parker said:

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

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As above consider the scriptures you are leaving out of James.

James 2
8, If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

You cannot separate LOVE from God's LAW because it is ONLY through LOVE coming from the HEART that God's LAW is fullfilled in those who BELIEVE God's WORD. This is the NEW COVENANT promise of God's LAW written on the heart to LOVE him who first LOVED us (Hebrews 8:10-12)

This is why Jesus says ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (to LOVE) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

Jim Parker said:

Because you consistently ignore what the scripture says about Gentiles no being required to keep the law while you push your law keeping heresy.

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Hello Jim, I have not ignored you at all. I have replied to all your posts as well as addressed all the scriptures in them. You have not replied to any of my posts that disagree with your posts but only repeat the same thing so it is difficult to have a discussion with you.

I do not wish to argue with you. You are free to believe what you like. I do not judge you. All are free to believe what they wish. We are only held accountable to God come judgement day where God's Word will be our judge (John 12:47-48).

If you wish to debate the topic lets' not do so here. Did you want to have a public debate in the debate section of the Forum. I would be happy to debate this there with you if you like? You did not reply to my invitation earlier. Let's please abide by the Forums rules here in the Bible study section and the advice of Reba please. If you did not want to debate the topic you are welcome to PM me if you like?

Many thanks for your consideration.

reba said:

This site is not those sights . Please ,,

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Indeed trying.

Papa Zoom said:

That said, I have been influenced to examine the role of the Sabbath in the life of the Christian. And more than that, but the purpose and role of the Sabbath in general. Yesterday was my Sabbath rest, which I took faithfully (even though I did the dishes which is my service to God for my wife) and I focused on God much of the day. Up at 6, devotions and readings until about 8:30. Then helping my wife (she gets up then). Church, home, lunch, and then the afternoon just spent relaxing and refreshing my mind and body. That included a small nap.

I'm not legalistic about a Sabbath. But the body needs rest and the Sabbath was made for man. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Just some thoughts as I continue to ponder the idea of the Sabbath. I don't mind the challenge you offer.

If someone doesn't observe or "take" a Sabbath rest, I would encourage them as it's good for us physically, mentally, and perhaps most importantly, spiritually.

For that matter, mini "Sabbaths" throughout the week are equally important. Pull back, focus and center on God and His wonderful Love for us. Meditate on His Word and contemplate what His Love and His Word means for our daily lives.

In Christ, ~Papa

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Hi Papa

I Love guitar; Although I can only play basic chords and play a few songs.

I think if someone is being legalistic then they do not KNOW God's salvation as the NEW Covenant is about LOVE written on the HEART through FAITH to FOLLOW God (Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matt 22:36-40; James 2:8-12) and is why Jesus says; If you LOVE me KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (John 14:15)

We are all ONLY saved by GRACE through FAITH and NOT of OURSELVES it is a GIFT of GOD and NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8)

This 4th Commandment is our duty of LOVE to God the same as if we LOVE our neigbor we will not steal from them or murder them or commit adultery etc.

I believe God's people are in EVERY Church. Many have been taught to worship God on Sunday which is a traditions handed down from the Mother Church (Roman Catholic Church) to most of the protestant churches of today.

In times of ignorance God does not hold these people accountable until they receive a KNOWLEDGE of the truth of God's Word (Acts 17:30-31)

Here is where Sunday worship has been handed down to Christianty of today. An interesting short video


.......................

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Papa Zoom said:

I would not promote the Sabbath as a must to follow. I've just decided that I'm going to look at this topic and consider how I might learn more about it. And I'll let the Spirit of God lead me into a deeper understanding. Besides, part of my "Sabbath" is spending time with Him. So it has good aspects - for my good. ;) In Christ, ~Papa

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A good approach, IMHO.

iakov the fool

Jim Parker said:

You are sharing a distortion of God's word.
That IS heresy. (An opinion different from the apostolic teaching.) You refuse to acknowledge the clear statements of scripture which explicitly teach that Gentiles are not required to keep the Law.Rom 6:14b "...you are not under law but under grace."

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Hello Jim as mentioned earlier God's Word is not heresy. If you believe any post I have provided is not correct please address the post and the scriptures in them that disagree with you and we can discuss it. Simply repeating the same posts over and over does not address the scritpures in the posts I have sent you that disagree with you resulting in no discussion.

We are indeed not under the law and under grace. You are ONLY "Under the LAW" if you are breaking it and SINNING against God. (Romans 3:19)

And I seriously doubt that you actually do keep the Sabbath according to the Law.
Do you do all of the following?
I doubt it.
EX 16:29-30 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." So the people rested on the seventh day.
Don’t travel on the Sabbath.

EX 20:8-10 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
1. Don’t you or anyone in your household do any work on the Sabbath.
2. It also includes animals which have been replaced by cars, trucks, tractors, busses, airplanes, trains, etc., So don’t work and don’t use a motor vehicle or any other method of transportation on the Sabbath.

EX 31:14-17 Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.
1. The seventh day is for rest; do not work on the Sabbath.
2. Israelites are to observe the Sabbath. (not gentiles, Israelites)
3. The Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel. (That’s Israel; not gentiles - So, if someone wants to keep the Sabbath according to God’s word then the men need to be circumcised.)
4. God abstained from work and rested on the 7th day and Israel is to do the same.
5. Kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. (Maybe just members of your household)

EX 35:1-3 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
1. The command concerning keeping the Sabbath Holy came from the LORD not from Moses.
2. Rest on the Sabbath and do no work.
3. Do not light a fire in your dwelling on the Sabbath. (Furnace, oven, light bulb)

LEV 23:3 There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

DT 5:12-14 Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.
Don’t use any utility (electricity, gas, internet, telephone, etc.) or public service (roads, police, radio, TV, bus, etc.) because that requires someone to work on the Sabbath in order to provide the service.

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Everything else you have written above is only a repeat copy and paste of the post you sent in POST # 201 (linked). I have already replied to your post in POST # 204; and POST # 205 (all linked). Did you want to address the posts I sent you? Or did you want to add anything new to the discussion that has not been discussed?

Thanks for your thoughts though Jim

LoveGodsWord said:

Everything else you have written above is only a repeat copy and paste of the post you sent in POST # 201 (linked). I have already replied to your post in POST # 204; and POST # 205 (all linked). Did you want to address the posts I sent you? Or did you want to add anything new to the discussion that has not been discussed?

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I read your responses and you seem to advocate that we MUST keep the Sabbath by breaking the OT rules just like Jesus and the Apostles said we could.
(I think I may be doing that already and didn’t even know it.)

atpollard said:

I read your responses and you seem to advocate that we MUST keep the Sabbath by breaking the OT rules just like Jesus and the Apostles said we could.
(I think I may be doing that already and didn’t even know it.)

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Hi atpollard,

Welcome and so nice to meet you here. Can you explain what you mean below...

we MUST keep the Sabbath by breaking the OT rules just like Jesus and the Apostles said we could.

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Not sure exactly what you mean here. So hope I am replying correctly. The OLD Covenant is made up of 1. God's LAW (10 Commandments) and 2. The Mosaic book of the LAW for remission of sins (ceremonial/Levitical/sacrificial sin offerings) It is the second that are shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus and fufilled in Christ as our true sacrifice for sin and our great high priest in the heavenly Sanctuary above.

God's Word says God's LAW is forever. It is the KNOWLEDGE what SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS is and leads us to JESUS.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, it's a Bible Study. So examine God's word and study. I don't believe we are required to observe the Sabbath. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't something to learn from it and God's law doesn't change. So I'm open. And I do have a Sabbath day where I rest in HIM and give that day to rest in HIM. But I do it for other reasons. AND I'm examining the call to keep the Sabbath. It's okay to talk about this.

Now if you bring up circumcision an expect me to do that!!! Now we'll have a problem. Fortunately I have Paul on my side for that one. ;)

Salt and Light. Love the Brethren (and Sisteren) ;) Seek Unity even in diversity.

Papa Zoom said:

I'm not going to bother deleting every post that's a problem but, no calling out false teaching or heresy if you don't like a POV. I will remove you permanently from this thread. If a topic is allowed, it's allowed. Let's be gracious. It's a discussion. If you don't want to discuss, don't. If you do, be salt and light.

And if you have a problem with an OP or a post, report it. Then accept the decision of the moderator team. We're brothers and sisters in Christ. And we work for free.

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Thanks Papa Zoom

Papa Zoom said:

Oh yeah, it's a Bible Study. So examine God's word and study.

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Absolutely, I think like you suggested earlier no one has a monopoly on truth. This only comes fom God's Word given by His Spirit. What Jesus asks of us is to study to show ourselves approved workman correctly dividing the Word of truth and to be like the faithful Bareans to see if these things be son.

Papa Zoom said:

I don't believe we are required to observe the Sabbath. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't something to learn from it and God's law doesn't change. So I'm open. And I do have a Sabbath day where I rest in HIM and give that day to rest in HIM. But I do it for other reasons. AND I'm examining the call to keep the Sabbath. It's okay to talk about this.

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God's 4th Commandments is a challenging subject for some people, especially those that have an association with Sunday Church because it is a foreign concept for many who are accustomed to going to Church on Sunday and following what the teachers of the day are preaching to them.

Many have not had the opportunity to study God's Word for themselves and simply do not know any better. I believe Gods' has people in all the different Churches living up to all the knowledge he has revealed to them.

Many do not know that the origin of Sunday worship does not come from the bible but is simply a man made traditions that has led many to disregard and break God's 4th commandment.

Even in the days of Jesus the manstream teachers of the day tried to bring in man-made traditions to break God's 5th Commandments about honoring your father and mother. Listen to the words of Jesus.....

Matthew 15
3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YOU TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? <Jesus is asking the question WHY ARE YOU BREAKING God's Commandment by following your own tradition>
4, For GOD COMMANDED, saying, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (5th Commandment) : and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5, But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6, And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. THUS HAVE YOU MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION.
7, Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9, But IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME TEACHING FOR DONTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

Now it is very clear here in the Words of Jesus himself that if we break God's Commandments by following our own traditions, Jesus says we are NOT following God. This was the mistake of God's chosen people in the day of Jesus. They had man made traditions that they followed that broke God's 5th Commandment. Jesus said they were NOT following God by doing this and they were breaking God's Commandments which is SIN (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; Romans 3:20)

Why is breaking God's 4th Commandment any different from those in the days of Jesus breaking God's 5th Commandment by following man made traditions?

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word

LoveGodsWord said:

Matthew 15
3, But he answered and said unto them, WHY DO YOU TRANSGRESS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD BY YOUR TRADITION? <Jesus is asking the question WHY ARE YOU BREAKING God's Commandment by following your own tradition>

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I'll just respond to your main posts but posting portions of your post. Jesus is talking to the Jews. They are still under the old covenant. The law is still in effect here. So in context, he's addressing Jews, not Believers. Also, he's chastising them for actually not following the law but following their traditions.

LoveGodsWord said:

Now it is very clear here in the Words of Jesus himself that if we break God's Commandments by following our own traditions, Jesus says we are NOT following God.

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Well, it's not clear to me He is saying that. Talk of the Law when He's addressing a Jewish audience doesn't mean that His words are meant for Believers. It's all about context IMO.

LoveGodsWord said:

Why is breaking God's 4th Commandment any different from those in the days of Jesus breaking God's 5th Commandment by following man made traditions?

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Everything in the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT except the Sabbath. It's not taught anywhere in the NT. If it were so important, you'd think it would be covered.

In the days of Jesus they were still under the Law and not under Grace. That's a huge difference. Now we are under a New Covenant. Not the Law, but Grace. That doesn't mean that God's Law (I'm now not speaking of the Ten Commandments) can be broken. Jesus offered us many commandments and said if we love Him we'd keep His commandments. Love one another. Be a servant. Share the love of Christ to the unfortunate of the world. We could make a huge list from the many things Jesus commanded. But only to the Jews did he speak of the Law.

I like your attitude which is why I chose to engage in this topic. You are gracious. I don't agree with your conclusion but you are a brother in Christ. And exploring this idea of the Sabbath and how it might (or might not) relate to us today is a good thing IMO. I was hostile to it at first but your attitude has change that (plus God doing a work in my heart in general - probably mostly that) and so I welcome this discussion. I will look further into this and see what I can offer biblically to add to the discussion.

Here's where I am right now: We are not commanded to observe the Sabbath for today but a Sabbath day rest has benefits for us both spiritually, mentally, and physically. God knows we need rest and so for me, I'm taking Sunday as my Sabbath. I am resting in Him on that day. I will devote portions of that day to study and reading.

Additionally, I'm taking a sabbath each day (small "s" this time) as I'm up at 6 and into my devotions and prayer. Retirement affords me huge luxuries of time. I'm using them wisely as God leads.

My challenge to you is to be open to being wrong on this point. I am open to being wrong as well as I know no one has a perfect theology and no one has a perfect understanding of all that God wants us to know. We see through a glass dimly.

Until next time, God bless and Let Your Light Shine Before Men! ~Papa

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Papa Zoom, I enjoy talking to you. Some questions and comments witten below for your consideration below....

Papa Zoom said:

I'll just respond to your main posts but posting portions of your post. Jesus is talking to the Jews. They are still under the old covenant. The law is still in effect here. So in context, he's addressing Jews, not Believers. Also, he's chastising them for actually not following the law but following their traditions.

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If you BELIEVE that Matthew 15:3-9 is only written for Jew and not for anyone else then how do you reconclide God's Word that says; All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim 3:16)

again..

Man does not LIVE by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4)

and again..

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come (1 Cor 10:11).

Do you not agree that Mattew 15:3-9 is the Word of God that is written for us?

Some further questions that may help the discussion....

Who is Israel or the Jews under the NEW COVENANT? (scripture support here linked)

Who is the NEW Covenant written for and what is the NEW COVENANT? (Hebrews 8:10-12)

I believe it is the WORD of God and we are to BELIEVE and follow it because God wrote it for us.

Just some thought Papa let me know what you think?