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Is futurism dying

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OK, is Christ present in that Body currently or absent from it?

The Spirit of Christ is.

The Man Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

He will remain there until the time of the restoration of all things.


JLB

So the Spirit of Christ is absent from the Man Jesus Christ currently?

The Spirit of Christ is Omnipresent.

The Spirit of Christ can occupy all the believers as well as as Jesus Christ Himself, while He is seated at the right hand of God.


JLB
 
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

I would n't think the Spirit of God is limited to the body of Christ. nor to the body of the man part of Christ .... nor to heaven etc.


I would Agree, but if the Spirit is present in His Body on earth (The Church) and simultaneously present in His body in Heaven, doesn't it follow That The two Bodies are present with one another?

The notion of "Present but Absent" doesn't fly with me so much.... God is no oxymoron

The Spirit of Christ is in the spirit of the believer, however the body is limited to time and space whereas the spirit is not.

So the spirit of the believer can be in Christ and the Spirit of Christ can be in the believer, but the body is confined to the earth in the realm of time and space.

It like trying to describe someone that has no age.

Could you describe for me someone who has no age?

Thanks JLB
 
Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

I would n't think the Spirit of God is limited to the body of Christ. nor to the body of the man part of Christ .... nor to heaven etc.


I would Agree, but if the Spirit is present in His Body on earth (The Church) and simultaneously present in His body in Heaven, doesn't it follow That The two Bodies are present with one another?

The notion of "Present but Absent" doesn't fly with me so much.... God is no oxymoron

I see what you are getting at, but it doesn't exactly work because the Holy Spirit is not limited by physicality. Jesus extended the Holy Spirit to the disciples during His ministry, but that doesn't mean their physical bodies were present with each other.
 
Believers already ARE "the Body of Christ" FULLY present with HIM.

Why would anyone want to trade that instant, 24/7 access without condition for some proposed future reality of having to travel to Jerusalem, get circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices in order to be "present" with and "accepted by" Jesus ??
 
Believers already ARE "the Body of Christ" FULLY present with HIM.

Why would anyone want to trade that instant, 24/7 access without condition for some proposed future reality of having to travel to Jerusalem, get circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices in order to be "present" with and "accepted by" Jesus ??


We don't have to trade anything. We abide in Him, His Spirit abides in us.

However, in addition to that, we will see Him and admire Him, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed 2 Thessalonians 2:10

Furthermore we will shed these mortal bodies and be clothed with immortality.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

This does not mean we are not like Him already, on the inside, because He abides in us, and is transforming us, for as He is so are we in this world.

What remains is for us to be further clothed with our heavenly habitation.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

JLB
 
some proposed future reality of having to travel to Jerusalem, get circumcised and render blood animal sacrifices in order to be "present" with and "accepted by" Jesus ??

I've heard similar things before from people. Why would anyone think such a thing?

Ezekiel 40-44, the so called "Millennial Temple" by Hyper Dispensational Futurists.

They usually run from being called to account for this belief, but hold it they do...

Indeed, JLB's silence on this point has been deafening.
 
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


Interesting... Since John was a witness to His resurrected Body that could walk through walls, why is he saying he does not know what we shall be like? If we shall be like him, and John saw Him "as He is", John would know, yet he claims he doesn't?
 
Interesting... Since John was a witness to His resurrected Body that could walk through walls,

It doesn't really say that Jesus walked through the wall, now does it? It says he appeared among them. Could be an entirely different thing. Inter-dimensional perhaps.

True, but beside the point. Appear/disappear. Fine. John SAW it yet still claimed He did not know, had not seen? Apparently St John believed that there was some sort of appreciable change to the nature of Christ's Body after the ascension, causing him to say he did not know what Christ's body was like, but would one day.


Now... any thoughts on Ez 40-44 Edward?
 
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


Interesting... Since John was a witness to His resurrected Body that could walk through walls, why is he saying he does not know what we shall be like? If we shall be like him, and John saw Him "as He is", John would know, yet he claims he doesn't?

John had never experienced the resurrected Lord, while being in his own resurrected body.

Paul said it this why, for now we see "as in a glass", the glory of The Lord.

When John saw Him in His resurrected body leave the earth, then John saw Him while he was caught up in the Spirit, without being in the flesh.

Note the difference -

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. Revelation 1:17

Same John.


JLB
 
Hi, I recently became a believer in partial preterism...when I studied the belief and studied the surrounding historical information it actually makes sense. Certaintly a lot more than futurists who constantly keep changing their ideas.

I actually feel even more connection to the Word now that I read the prophecies form a partial preterism understanding.
 
Hi, I recently became a believer in partial preterism...when I studied the belief and studied the surrounding historical information it actually makes sense. Certaintly a lot more than futurists who constantly keep changing their ideas.

I actually feel even more connection to the Word now that I read the prophecies form a partial preterism understanding.

Have you studied Daniel's 70 weeks?

What is your take on the 70th week?


JLB
 
Have you studied Daniel's 70 weeks? What is your take on the 70th week? JLB

I'll take a crack at that one.....

Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy
1. Finish the Transgression.
Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.
2. Make an End of Sins.
Though we still sin, our sins no longer have power to prevent us from salvation. Jesus, by fulfilling the Law, ended sins strength. Sin is now utterly powerless.
3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.
4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.
5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."
6. Anoint the Most Holy
Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He is the Most Holy.

Now, The temple destroyed in 70Ad was actually the 3rd temple built in Jerusalem. It is called the 2nd temple because it was a renovation of the 2nd temple, but the renovation was so vast that it really constituted a unique structure itself, 3rd in succession.
Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. The question comes to "which decree is it?"
Here are the decrees:
The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
* Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
* The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
* Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.
The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
* Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
* Scratch that one.
Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
* Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
* Scratch that.
Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
* Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
* The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
* Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
* Scratch this one, no Messiah.
Ezra 6:14
* "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
* But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
* So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.
Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
* Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?
Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.
What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.
Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection and subsequent 3.5 year ministry to the Jews exclusively by the apostles, fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel completely.
 
to finish the transgression

Have the Jews finished transgressing the Covenant?


. to make an end of sins

Are the Jews still sinning?


to make reconciliation for iniquity

Has iniquity of the Jews be reconciled and brought to a completion?


to bring in everlasting righteousness

Is there everlasting righteousness among the Jews in the city of Jerusalem?

Are people living forever yet?


to seal up the vision and prophecy

Has all prophecy been fulfilled?


The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17

The Math:

14 generations @ 40 years per generation = 560 years

The time of captivity 70 years.

To arrive at the "going forth of the command" we deduct the time of captivity.

560 - 70 = 490 years from the going forth of the command to the birth of Christ = 490 years. 70 weeks!


No made up generic dates, such as some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon.

The problem you have is Messiah the Prince refers to a specific event, which is not the birth of Christ.

The second problem with this is, the prophecy states the it is 69 weeks to the event called "Messiah the Prince".


Shall I continue?


JLB
 
1. to finish the transgression 2. to make an end of sins 3. to make reconciliation for iniquity 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness 5. to seal up the vision and prophecy 6. to anoint the most Holy


Isn't that a good part of what Jesus did?
 
1. to finish the transgression 2. to make an end of sins 3. to make reconciliation for iniquity 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness 5. to seal up the vision and prophecy 6. to anoint the most Holy


Isn't that a good part of what Jesus did?

bring in everlasting righteousness is something Jesus will do when He returns and seperates the sheep from the goats, at the resurrection.

Hence the term everlasting.

Look around, do you see everlasting righteousness iin Jerusalem?


JLB
 
We just see/read the scriptures differently.. Yes i see everlasting righteousness in Jerusalem . You and i just dont see the same Jerusalem... I see the city of these verses you see city built by man.... Not wrong or right just different. :)

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
 
We just see/read the scriptures differently.. Yes i see everlasting righteousness in Jerusalem . You and i just dont see the same Jerusalem... I see the city of these verses you see city built by man.... Not wrong or right just different. :)

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Jesus disciples asked Him a question about the natural Temple that was built by man, while standing on the Temple grounds.

Jesus mentioned the destruction of the natural Temple built by man.

The disciples asked Him when the destruction of the natural Temple built by man was going to take place.

Jesus referred to Daniel, in His Olivet Discourse, so that the reader would understand what He was teaching us about His Coming and the end of the age.

Daniel 9:25 says -

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city...


Daniel 9:26 says -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Messiah was literally "cut off", crucified outside the natural city of Jerusalem, here on earth in Israel.

The natural city of Jerusalem that was built by man, and the natural temple that was built by man, was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, right here on earth.

This prophecy is about natural people and a natural city and a natural temple built by man.



JLB
 
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The natural city of Jerusalem that was built by man, and the natural temple that was built by man, was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, right here on earth.

I have been looking at this and most claim this was Herod's Temple that Jesus stood by saying not one stone will be left on another. Well, there are still parts of walls with stones on top of each other, and My thinking is that what happened in 70ad is just guesswork at best with tons of make believe and speculation. If Jesus said no stone left on top the other, then it can't be Herod's temple and if not Herod's temple then what they think was the temple in 70ad is MYTH BUSTED!!!

We need to stick with scriptures not faulty History.

Mike.
 
I know JLB but again we just read/see it differently ... I have been pretty much where you are in your study/believes/thinking ... About 25 years ago a number of 'things' started making a difference in what/how i viewed scripture... So far nothing has come up to turn me around... A deep reading of Hebrews and Galations was a point of interests to me... realizing i did not do not have all the answers was another.

Yet i know you're not posting only to me...:)
 
About 25 years ago a number of 'things' started making a difference in what/how i viewed scripture

So now you view scriptures that clearly speak of natural Jerusalem, with a natural temple built by men, that was destroyed, and you mix those together with a heavenly Jerusalem, that is representing a heavenly bride, and you come up with what?

That my dear sister is a perfect example of not rightly dividing the word of truth.



JLB
 
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