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The soul of man

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chessman said:
Who were you quoting that said "every believer" ...? I was quoting you just then, so I used quotation marks.

BTW, I do see your overall point and don't necessarily disagree with you.
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I've yet to see any believer who will say they do goat works when they aren't doing sheep works. But it is an HONEST conclusion.

I was agreeing with your observation, of the devil and his messengers being listed, specifically, in the account of Matt. 25. That might seem to some as a requirement to get them on the table of understanding the account.
 
chessman said:
No. I never said that the Text doesn't say the smoke doesn't go up forever (continuously). I said the Text doesn't indicate their torment continues forever. Which is true, it doesn't.
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The text says: 'And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name' (Rev 14:11 ESV).

The 'smoke of their torment' goes up continuously for ever and ever. Why on earth would smoke go up forever and ever if the smoke was not associated with their torment? You don't seem to understand the grammar of Rev 14:11 (ESV). I can live with that, but using this verse to bolster your theology of no torment for unbelievers on a verse whose grammar refutes that position, is strange logic.

When you continue to refuse to listen to the grammar of the sentence and context of the sentence, it's pretty obvious what your conclusion will be. It will be contrary to the grammar, semantics and context of the sentence.

Bye,
Oz :confused2
 
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OzSpen said:
When you continue to refuse to listen to the grammar of the sentence and context of the sentence, it's pretty obvious what your conclusion will be. It will be contrary to the grammar, semantics and context of the sentence.
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I have not refused to listen to the grammar or the context. The context is about exactly what John said it was about; The Lamb of God returned to the earth just prior to the Judgment and a proclamation made to everyone still on the Earth to fear God (who can destroy both the body and soul of the lost in Hell).

Thus I asked:
chessman said:
can you explain from the Greek grammar how long the Greek word translated "torment" indicates their "torture" lasts?
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Still waiting on your answer. Are you a Koine Greek grammar expert or not? Surely you can tell us how long their actual torment lasts (not how long the smoke from God's wrath upon them rises) from the Greek word John used for their torment, right?

OzSpen said:
Bye,
Oz :confused2
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Is that your final answer?

OzSpen said:
The 'smoke of their torment' goes up continuously for ever and ever. Why on earth would smoke go up forever and ever if the smoke was not associated with their torment?
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We all know that the smoke goes up forever. I mean, that's what the verse says. But how long does the torment last, is the question.

How long does the smoke rise from Edom's destruction? Forever!

How long did Edom's destruction take? Um, less than one night.

That's the Biblical example we are to use for God's full wrath.
 
chessman said:
Are you a Koine Greek grammar expert or not? Surely you can tell us how long their actual torment lasts (not how long the smoke from God's wrath upon them rises) from the Greek word John used for their torment, right?
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How many times do I have to tell you that I TEACH Koine Greek grammar. What do you know about the grammar of Koine Greek that causes you to contradict what I wrote about the present indicative of 'goes up'?

'And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name' (Rev 14:11 ESV).

There cannot be smoke of torment going up forever and ever on these worshippers of the beast, unless the torment and the smoke go on forever and ever. Smoke of torment happens because there is torment. The language of this verse is that the torment happens forever and ever.

In case you don't like my explanation of the grammar, there are others who affirm the same grammar. George Eldon Ladd, in his commentary on the Book of Revelation, wrote of Rev 14:11:

The language of this verse reminds us of another company, the twenty-four elders who "day and night ... never cease to sing" praises and adoration unto God (4:8). The eternal duration of the punishment of the wicked is no new note in the New Testament. Jesus had spoken of the eternal punishment of the wicked (Matt. 25:46) and warned of the hell of fire where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) [Ladd 1972:197].​

R C H Lenski, a Lutheran commentator, wrote of this verse:

"Smoke," like "fire and brimstone," is a mere human term and conveys what is implied by the conditions obtaining in hell. The smoke of their torment going up "for the eons of the eons" (see 1:6) indicates eternal torment (19:3). Hence the elucidation, "and they have no respite (no pause anapousis) by day and by night" (genitive of time within). Then they are again designated: "those doing obeisance to the beast and to his image, and if anyone receives the mark of his name," and the "if anyone" of reality is repeated, cf., v. 9. Human language is compelled to use terms of time in an effort to present the timelessness of the other world where there is neither day nor night. Scripture condescends to our poor finite limitations of mind, for if the language of infinity were used, no human mind would understand (Lenski 1943/1963:438).​

Therefore, I'm not a loose wheel who is spinning my own doctrine of eternal punishment. It's the biblical teaching throughout Scripture, including in Rev. 14:11 (ESV).

You ask:
Surely you can tell us how long their actual torment lasts (not how long the smoke from God's wrath upon them rises) from the Greek word John used for their torment, right?
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This demonstrates that you don't know how Greek grammar works. You CANNOT get an understanding of the length of time of the torment from the noun for torment. You need verbs, adjectives, adverbs or some other qualifying clauses to tell you the length of time of the torment. The noun, 'torment', does not tell you that. In Rev 14:11 (ESV), there are these aspects of grammar that tell us the length of time of the torment:
  1. The verb, 'goes up', is present tense. The kind of action of this tense (Greek tenses use kind of action and not time of action) is continuous action. There is no break. It goes on and on without a stop.
  2. The adverbial phrase, 'for ever and ever', is crystal clear. There is no ending.
  3. Then we have the qualifying clause, 'they have no rest, day or night'.
Therefore, for you to get other than torment that continues forever is imposing another agenda. It's called eisegesis (reading into the text) and not exegesis (getting the meaning out of the text). That would get a failing grade in any seminary course I've attended or college Greek course I've taught.

Oz


Works consulted
Ladd, G E 1972. A commentary on the Revelation of John. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Lenski, R C H 1943/1963. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. John’s Revelation. Minneapolis MN: Augsburg Publishing House (Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. edn.)
 
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OzSpen said:
You CANNOT get an understanding of the length of time of the torment from the noun for torment.
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Sure you can. It's called a deverbal (a noun based on the result of the action from it's associated verbal form of the root word). Look it up in your favorite advanced source.

Your claim above demonstrates that you don't know how Koine Greek grammar works as well as you think you do.

OzSpen said:
There cannot be smoke of torment going up forever and ever on these worshippers of the beast, unless the torment and the smoke go on forever and ever.
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Incorrect. Just like the example of Edom's destruction still goes up forever yet it was utterly destroyed, the smoke of The Beast worshipers' torment (the completed action of their torture) can go up forever after their torment is completed.

Also like the example of Jesus' redeeming (a verb) was completed by His redemption (a noun) on the cross:

Hebrews 9:11-12 (LEB) But Christ has arrived as a high priest of the good things to come. Through the greater and more perfect tent not made by hands, that is, not of this creation, and not by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption.​

Jesus' work of redeeming (a verb) was completed on the cross. Thus we call its result-redemption (a deverbal noun).
Your view would be like saying you cannot have eternal redemption unless Christ was still hanging on the cross, redeeming us.

Works cited, The Bible

Given your understanding of their continuing torture, the word should have been in verb form, rather than in its deverbal noun form.

That's my point.
 
chessman said:
I have not refused to listen to the grammar or the context. The context is about exactly what John said it was about; The Lamb of God returned to the earth just prior to the Judgment and a proclamation made to everyone still on the Earth to fear God (who can destroy both the body and soul of the lost in Hell).

Thus I asked:


Still waiting on your answer. Are you a Koine Greek grammar expert or not? Surely you can tell us how long their actual torment lasts (not how long the smoke from God's wrath upon them rises) from the Greek word John used for their torment, right?


Is that your final answer?


We all know that the smoke goes up forever. I mean, that's what the verse says. But how long does the torment last, is the question.

How long does the smoke rise from Edom's destruction? Forever!

How long did Edom's destruction take? Um, less than one night.

That's the Biblical example we are to use for God's full wrath.
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Please post the Scripture reference for your counter claims according to the rules of this forum.
I'd like to see where those in bold are found.
 
chessman said:
Sure you can. It's called a deverbal (a noun based on the result of the action from it's associated verbal form of the root word). Look it up in your favorite advanced source.
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The length of 'torment' in Rev 14:11 (ESV) is NOT determined by the meaning of the noun. I've provided you with accompanying factors from the verse that demonstrate that torment was forever.

'Torment' as a stand alone noun does NOT demonstrate continuous action. The verb accompanying it does - along with other grammatical factors that I've already shown you.

Oz
 
WIP said:
Please post the Scripture reference for your counter claims according to the rules of this forum.
I'd like to see where those in bold are found.
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chessman said:
Isaiah 34:8-10 (NKJV) For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever
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Obadiah 1:5, 8, 15 (LEB) “If thieves came to you, if plunderers of the night—How you have been destroyed!—would they not steal what they wanted?

If grape gatherers came, would they not leave gleanings?
On that day,” declares Yahweh, “will I not destroy the wise men from Edom, and understanding from the mountain of Esau?

“For the day of Yahweh is near against all the nations! Just as you have done, it will be done to you. Your deeds will return on your own head.​
 
OzSpen said:
Torment' as a stand alone noun does NOT demonstrate continuous action.
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I know. That's my point. It's a deverbal noun. It indicates the completed result of the verb to torture. Just like redemption is a deverbal noun that indicates the completed result of the verb to redeem.
 
chessman said:
Works cited, The Bible
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Super-spiritual huh?

images
 
OzSpen said:
I've provided you with accompanying factors from the verse that demonstrate that torment was forever.
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You provided accompanying factors from the verse that demonstrate the smoke rises forever. Something I never, not once, disagreed with.
 
chessman said:
I know. That's my point. It's a deverbal noun. It indicates the completed result of the verb to torture. Just like redemption is a deverbal noun that indicates the completed result of the verb to redeem.
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I demonstrated from the verbs, adverbs and associated phrases in Rev 14:11 that it confirms torment forever. But you don't want to receive this exegesis.

See my post #404.

Bye, bye
images
 
chessman said:
You provided accompanying factors from the verse that demonstrate the smoke rises forever. Something I never, not once, disagreed with.
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Ya gotta admit this is pretty clear:

Rev. 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nothing ambiguous about that statement.
 
smaller said:
Ya gotta admit this is pretty clear:

Rev. 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nothing ambiguous about that statement.
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Yes. That's why I believe that The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet (who are not the lost men of this O.P.) that deceived them (the lost men) will be tormented day and night forever.

But this thread is about the soul of man, not Satan and his angels, right?

Just as unambiguous are these facts:

1. The Beast and The False Prophet in John's vision are demons. (See Revelation 16:14 "For they are the spirits of demons ...".

2. Theses three are thrown into the Lake of Fire to remain there forever before the Day of Judgement occurs when all lost souls (and reunited bodies) stand before the Lord for their Judgment. These three do not stand in Judgment with the lost. (See Rev 20:10)


Why??? Because they are Satan and his demons who cannot die (Luke 20:36). The souls of men, on the otherhand, can most certainly be destroyed in Hell (Matt 10:28).

p.s. Notice that in Rev 20:10 "tormented" is in its verbal form, not a noun formation of the root action word (deverbal-result of a verb/action). Which is exactly how you would describe the continuing torture of the lost should that be the case. But that's not what action is occurring in Rev 14:10. Only the smoke rising is what is stated as occuring forever. Which is again, why I don't disagree with what the Text actually says. If Rev 20:10 were speaking of lost men (versus demons), then eternal torture of lost men's souls would have a valid point. (And the only one)

Plus, Rev 14 is not even talking about the fate after the final judgment. As I've pointed out. There are still people (lost and saved people) dying on earth during John's vision in Rev 14. And you still got Beast worshippers taking his sign during Rev 14.

When you actually get down to it and fairly study the Texts associated with the post final judgment state of lost souls (and approach the subject fairly and considerately), I no longer find any good Biblical reason to believe in eternal concise torment of lost men's souls. Devils, sure! Souls of men, not so much. Lot's of commentary and tradition saying it, sure. But Bible Text, not really.

And I had to change my mind to come to that understanding. Just a few years ago, I thought 'the wages of sin was eternal concise torture in Hell', too. Come to find out, it's not. It's death, the second death. This time of the body and soul, not just the body.
 
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chessman said:
Yes. That's why I believe that The Devil, The Beast and The False Prophet (who are not the lost men of this O.P.) that deceived them (the lost men) will be tormented day and night forever.
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That's why I questioned you earlier, if you hold to a double standard for the LoF. One fate for devils, another for unbelieving man in the same state. To me the question is more complex, seeing that both of these "entity classes" the seen and the unseen, occupy the same place while alive in flesh. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8.
But this thread is about the soul of man, not Satan and his angels, right?
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It is problematic for me to see only one party when viewing "a flesh man."
Just as unambiguous are these facts:

1. The Beast and The False Prophet in John's vision are demons. (See Revelation 16:14 "For they are the spirits of demons ...".

2. Theses three are thrown into the Lake of Fire to remain there forever before the Day of Judgement occurs when all lost souls (and reunited bodies) stand before the Lord for their Judgment. These three do not stand in Judgment with the lost. (See Rev 20:10)
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There is no question that "all mankind" will be judged as sinners, without exception. Romans 3:19.

The only question from there is the receipt of Divine Mercy, or not.
Why??? Because they are Satan and his demons who cannot die (Luke 20:36). The souls of men, on the otherhand, can most certainly be destroyed in Hell (Matt 10:28).
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Destruction doesn't mean there is an end to the duration of same, as you note with the devil and his messengers. There is also the "spirit" of a man, not just a soul. Trying to pin these matters on just and only a "soul" sight won't work. It is somewhat problematic to "separate" the soul of a man from the spirit of a man in the post death condition.

But what we DO know is that there is a working of the Word that 'separates' soul from spirit:

Heb. 4:
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We also know from scripture that it is the "soul" that sins, and is also in need of atonement. Lev. 4:2, Lev. 5:1, Ex. 30:15-16 for examples.

The soul to me is an interesting and deep subject. Not easy to come to grips with. We know that "souls" do evil. Even with Paul. I don't think there are any exceptions to this fact other than Jesus. Romans 2:9, Romans 7:21. We also know that "souls" can be subverted, and that "souls" have WAR made against same. Acts 15:24, 1 Pet. 2:11.

A good case can also be made, from Rev. 18, that there are wicked souls in the realm of adverse spirits, the spirits of devils.

These things of the "soul(s)" are not as easy as they appear on the surface.
p.s. Notice that in Rev 20:10 "tormented" is in its verbal form, not a noun formation of the root action word (deverbal-result of a verb/action). Which is exactly how you would describe the continuing torture of the lost should that be the case. But that's not what action is occurring in Rev 14:10. Only the smoke rising is what is stated as occuring forever. Which is again, why I don't disagree with what the Text actually says. If Rev 20:10 were speaking of lost men (versus demons), then eternal torture of lost men's souls would have a valid point. (And the only one)
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The position or disposition of the soul is probably not a matter that is in our hands in any case. I do believe that 'every' soul will give it's account before God, and in such accounst there will be both good and evil accounted for.
Plus, Rev 14 is not even talking about the fate after the final judgment. As I've pointed out. There are still people (lost and saved people) dying on earth during John's vision in Rev 14. And you still got Beast worshippers taking his sign during Rev 14.
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My ultimate sight of Rev. is twofold. The Revealing of Christ in us, and, the destruction of the devil and his messengers. I believe said destruction of the enemies transpires IN us, for those who remain during this time of final judgments on earth.
When you actually get down to it and fairly study the Texts associated with the post final judgment state of lost souls (and approach the subject fairly and considerately), I no longer find any good Biblical reason to believe in eternal concise torment of lost men's souls. Devils, sure! Souls of men, not so much. Lot's of commentary and tradition saying it, sure. But Bible Text, not really.
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I will agree with you on the count of the devils. With man during that time, I have seen better, from Rev:

Rev. 5:
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I see the event MORE in Glory, than in doom and gloom.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 25:7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
 
smaller said:
One fate for devils, another for unbelieving man in the same state.
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Why is this a problem? If you believe what is written, devils cannot die (here, there, or anywhere). Yet man can be destroyed (both body and soul) in Hell, Matt 10:28. We are not like demons now, why not a 'double standard then'???

But whatever, I don't really even think to much about what happens to the lost in Hell. Not my future home nor any of my brothers/sisters in Christ anyway. If it were "written" that the lost live forever in eternal conscious torment in Hell, I wouldn't have even a speck of doubt. But it's not written that way. Lots of people think so, though.

Frankly, I'll borrow my teens' saying; "whatever".
 
chessman said:
But whatever, I don't really even think to much about what happens to the lost in Hell. Not my future home nor any of my brothers/sisters in Christ anyway. If it were "written" that the lost live forever in eternal conscious torment in Hell, I wouldn't have even a speck of doubt. But it's not written that way. Lots of people think so, though.

Frankly, I'll borrow my teens' saying; "whatever".
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You don't worry about teaching false information about hell, because you are not going there. I do, because I take James 3:1 (NIV) seriously: 'Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly'.

The teens language of 'whatever' should not be that of a teacher who takes seriously what the Bible states.

Oz
 
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