Hi Dirtfarmer,
How are you still saved if you abandon God and no longer desire Him to be in your life?
Do you believe in free will?
After salvation, do we lose free will and does God force us to be saved even if we don't want to be?
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
How are you still saved if you abandon God and no longer desire Him to be in your life?
Do you believe in free will?
After salvation, do we lose free will and does God force us to be saved even if we don't want to be?
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
If man can cast aside the work of Christ on the cross in which he has paid the "sin debt" of the whole world, then why can man cast aside the work that God has predetermined to do to bring the consummation of the ages. Man cannot thwart God's plan of the restitution of all things, but man has the power to change the greatest victory ever accomplished in the history of the world? Satan has tried to stop Jesus, the one that would bruise he head, and has down through history tried to break the lineage of the savior was to come from.
Satan's greatest victory was "Christ on the cross", but God turned that into his ultimate victory in the defeat of Satan by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Kidron
Member
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I would not be the one to insist that you follow the pope or john calvin or Arminianism.
I dont have much to do with any of that stuff.
Both the pope and Calvin had people murdered.
JCalvin has his "tulip" doctrinal thing going., and many are in that theological ditch.
Me, not being one of them.
Tho, the Tulip is my favorite flower..
Too bad its associated with JCalvin.
And that you agree with some of the people on this forum who are trying to save themselves.........or confuse other believers regarding who saved them.
Not much i can do about that, wondering.
You are a free will agent, and you will pursue what you choose.
Same as the rest of us.
And regarding "works',...the works you do , that you are to do, as a Christian.
>Discipleship<.
You are to do them, but we are never to misunderstand or imply or believe that Salvation has anything to do with the works performed by a Christian Disciple.
This is why Paul explains that redemption its of Fatih and not of Debt. Romans 4:4.
And all who are tripping over OSAS, have not studied that scripture or .. Romans 4:8
See, once a person starts trying to teach that works are critical to maintaining what God has freely given, then out goes the Cross and in come the self righteousness.
Self Righteousness.....Is "trying to make self RIGHT with God".....instead of believing only on Jesus who is the only one who can make us Righteous.
A question that all Christians should ask themselves is...."what am i trusting to get me to heaven if i died right now".
And if the first thing that comes to mind is the epistle of James and some scripture about "works" or "enduring", then that Christian is so in the dark that the darkness is consuming them.
So, yep, we ARE to maintain Good works, but Salvation is not achieved or maintained by them.
Salvation is a Gift.,and you cant earn a Gift or keep a Gift by works.
And here is the other thing.
Once a person starts teaching that Faith saves you, so you much hold onto it, or be damned, then that person is now trusting in faith as their personal savior, instead of trusting in God who saved them ONCE, when they gave Him the faith which caused Him to regenerate them. once.
So, being Born Again, is the end result of God accepting Faith, and then regenerating them ONCE.
This is why in J0hn , Jesus sad we are to be "born again"....(singular) and never did He ever say this happens more then once.
It cant., as birth can only happen 2x in a person's life.......When they are born from the womb with blood following, and 2nd, when they are "Born from Above" because blood was SHED by Jesus.
We are not "being born again, we ARE already born again (if we are saved)....and you cant undo a birth by your behavior AFTER you are born.
Its impossible.
All you can do after you are born, is live till you die., but you can't undo being born.
So, regeneration, (being born again), is the literal eternal result of God accepting your faith, once, and in return HE saved us, eternally.
Faith does not save.
Faith is not the Savior.
Faith didnt hang on a cross.
There is no redeeming blood found in Faith.
Nails were not driven into Faith.
Faith did not wear a crown of Thorns.
Faith is NOT the savior.
All Faith does, is meet the one time "convicted by the holy spirit" requirement that God requires of you to then SAVE YOU because you did what he told you to do to be "saved".
It happens only once.
All faith does, is release God to Save us., and He DID, once..... if we are saved.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello wondering , dirtfarmer here
We have no free will before salvation. We were slaves to sin; no matter how good a deed we do before salvation, it was not for the glory of God, it was for self-gratification. Satan is not pleased with the harlot or the drunkard, he wants you, by your own power, to live as Godly as you possibly can, but deny the power of Christ's resurrection.
It is my belief that only after salvation do we have a choice, which is what "free will" is. We can choose to obey the Spirit or obey the flesh, this is free will. We don't have a third option, it is either for God's glory or our glory.
God only gives the unbeliever the power to believe before salvation, through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God that is offered to those have come to understand that they are condemned and in need of a savior.
Is there any example of any one that ever turned away from salvation after dying to self and resurrecting the "old man" in scripture?
When a person understands that regardless of how many they give food to, or do deeds to help the poor, that they are still without a savior
Kidron
Member
Me too.
Every time i look at the Cross, i realize that im not the one hanging on it = so that by His sacrifice, i am "A-OK" with God.
See, i know me.
I know i'll never be, and could never be even .000000056 percent worthy to be allowed into heaven, based on ME and my deeds.
OMG.
To even try to pretend or presume that God would or could accept me (based on me) means that i am actually comparing my own self-righteousness as somehow equal to the Righteousness of Christ.
I wont be doing that ....hahahah.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
I know better then to think that anything i could do can match the Holy Blood that God provided so that He can accept me.
Some of you are far far better Christians then i could ever be, and im better then some of you...but, its GOD who allows me into HIS Presence, and you also.
And we have nothing to do with that, other then, "believe on the Lord Jesus The Christ and THO SHALL BE Saved"..
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Nathan
Member
I don't believe God turned anything. God knew satan would sin. God knew satan would tempt Eve. God knew Eve would 'bite' on this temptation and man would follow. God, knowing all of this, still put satan in the Garden. Why?
Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Galatians 3:22 - But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Proverbs 20:9 -
Who can say, “I have made my heart pure;
I am clean from my sin”?
God put every single human being throughout history under the total confinement of sin. He cannot sin, He cannot make us sin, so He used the one who He knew would be the one full of sin to work out His plan.
In the same way, God wanted to show His power and mercy toward us, so before He even created mankind He set out the plan of redemption.
You have to see that these are two foundational truths written throughout the Bible. Do they cancel each other out? There would be no point in that. Did God predetermine mankind to sin, before or after predetermining Christ to pay for sin?
If God said He was going to confine a human under sin, but then make Him complete regardless of anything, there is no point in confining that human under sin. The one cancels out the reason for the other.
However, if God confined human under sin, and provided a way out of that sin, in a way that showed His mercy in order for the human to give Him worship - then that means He had to give the human choices. We also see this is a fact woven throughout the Bible. He cannot give commandments if there are no choices to do them or not. A speed limit sign is pointless if there is nothing that can go that fast.
Ah, so we say, does that mean mankind can obey God's commands? Yes, it does. Can we obey all of them? Yes, we can. BUT, the question is - will we obey all of them? No, we will not - impossible for us to.
Is that a contradiction? How can I say that man can obey, but also that it is impossible to obey? (Light bulb should be going on right now)
Its through God's provision. We can obey His commands ONLY through His Son.
2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away;behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
"reconciled" - katallassō - to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
God exchanged our inability, our impossibility, for Christ's ability and possibility.
The whole thing, from before creation was even made. Before satan sinned. Was all a plan to show us His love, ALL so that we would return that love.
We cannot look at the small picture and get a true doctrine. We have to view it as a whole.
The big picture is this one command - Jesus said it was the greatest - to love God. We have to, its imperative, to understand what love is. The command to love God is to love Him with the same love He loves us with. We know, or should know, that no one can force God to love us. So if we are to return that same love, it cannot be forced - even from God. It has to be a choice of ours.
To answer your question. If we choose not to love God, then we cast aside His love. His love encompasses all that He has laid out for those who love Him. That is not thwarting God's plan, it is only rejecting Him individually. God's plan still continues for all the others who love Him. It does not change the victory Christ did for us - because there are still those who will love God. How does God know this? Is there a possibility that there would be none to return this love?
Nope. God knows everything. He knew that there would be those who would accept His love, and in return give it back. Even if there was only one - a single human that God only knew - it would have been enough for Him. We've read the end of the story, the end of the plan, and we know this is not the case though. Multitudes will be forever loving our God through praise and worship.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
There are a lot of words in your post. There are a couple of sentences that I would encourage to consider. You stated; " God put every single human being throughout history under the total confinement of sin". Was Adam "put under the total confinement of sin"? or did Adam choose to disobey God? It is my understanding that Adam freely chose to disobey God's only law that given to him and until he did he was not confined to sin but was innocent of any sin . If this is true, then, how was Adam "under total confinement of sin"? We find in Romans 5:13-14 that when there is no law, sin is not imputed. In v14 it is stated that even though there was no law from Adam to Moses, death still reigned even over those that had not sinned as Adam did.
Also the in same sentence, " God put every single human being ----- under the total confinement of sin", it is my understanding that the "change in Adam", from innocent to sinner is what consigned every human to sin: Genesis 5:3, " And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth." I understand this to say that the consignment under sin was because of Adam did not because God "put' man under sin.
dirtfarmer
Member
reply #2
hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here
I should have used the word "intervene". God intervened in the life of Saul and changed his direction from persecution against to preaching for, on the Damascus road. God intervened in Satan's plan to destroy "the seed of the woman" and changed it to the greatest victory in the history of man
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Nathan
Member
Sorry dirtfarmer, I tend to continue out a thought when I start replying. I know they can be hard to read, long posts that is, I have trouble myself sometimes reading others. I much prefer short ones.
Yes. Adam was put under the total confinement. What I mean by that, is that God put us all - even Adam - in the position to where sin is on 'all sides' and therefore it is impossible to not. Adam had the choice, as we all do, but if Adam had not sinned - then there would have been no need for Christ. God made it to where Adam would eventually choose to sin. It was only a matter of time. The "law" for Adam was to not eat of the tree. Pretty simple law, but a law nonetheless. *ever notice there is no time given between creation of man and the fall?
God knew Adam would sin. Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. God made a way for payment of sin before sin even existed. Therefore, it was impossible for Adam to not have sinned.
Being confined to sin, and under the slavery of sin, are two separate issues. Confinement means its impossible(other than through Christ) to not sin, under the slavery of sin means you keep on sinning and have no control. Adam was not a slave to sin, but he was confined to it.
Paul understood this separation, and understood the plan of God - of why the confinement of mankind to sin;
Romans 5:19-21;6:1
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Adam sold us into slavery. But notice Paul's question. He asks this because he understood(and hoped the readers would too) that this sin was the only way God wanted to show His love(grace) to us. So He says, hey, if grace comes through sin......lets keep on sinning because this grace stuff is great!
Point is, all humankind is confined to sin, but from Adam's signature on we became slaves. If you want to go deeper, you can find that even while we are still alive on earth, believers are still confined to sin - just no longer slaves of it.
Nathan
Member
Heres the short answer - just in case.
God confines all mankind to sin
Adam made us slaves to sin
Nathan
Member
The problem is(for satan), his plan.......is actually controlled by God.
(I'm not sure if he has figured that out yet)God has set boundaries for satan. And nothing satan does takes God by surprise. In fact, satan has to ask God permission for certain things - if not all(I am not sure what God has given satan free will with in regards to His plan).
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Nathan
Member
What I meant to say, also, is this was God's plan all along - we cannot look through history and see different times when God has to do something unplanned in order to keep His plan going. Fact is, EVERYTHING is in His plan.
That's what is so amazing to me. God has this plan, so great, so vast, so intricate that humans only can see such a small part. Yet in this plan He sets forth one thing - one seemingly little thing - that is us receiving and reciprocating God's love. That, He planned and gave to us.
I always wondered what God found worthwhile in us. If He didn't have a plan, then it would seem logical that if I were God I would have started over a long time ago. Then on the flip side, if He controls every little aspect, then it would get very boring, like playing with dolls or something.
But when I realized, that what God finds joy in is seeing His love accepted and then reciprocated to Him - and to others.......without Him having to control it.........
Man, I cannot tell you the feeling I get. Incredible. Amazing. I get glimpses of it every now and then when my own children exhibit it.
That's why I cannot wrap my mind around Calvin, or any of his teachings that have sprouted off into trying to say that God cannot let mankind love Him as He loves us. They say its because it takes away from God's sovereignty or power? How? I can't wrap my mind around it. Why can't God just love and let others love Him back? How can one man distort love so much that so many people do not understand that love cannot be forced?
What happens if you choose to depart from the faith, because you chose to give heed to a doctrine of demons?
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1
Jesus is the author of our faith, because we received faith as a free gift, when we heard the Gospel preached.
If you have kept the faith to the end, it is because of His grace: The power of His Spirit working in you.
If you depart from the faith, because you chose to be disobedient, then that is your choice.
If you depart from the truth, then you have returned to being a sinner, if which someone will have to turn you back to the truth, or you will lose your soul, unto eternal death.
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21
Jesus taught us the truth from His parable of the lost sheep.
The sheep who became lost, was has become a sinner in need repentance, in need of someone to turn him back to the fold.
Lost = without God: dead to God. A sinner in need of repentance.
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
If you believe "lost" or "sinner" somehow means "still saved", then please provide some scripture that teaches us this, unlikely definition.
JLB
Agreed, Jesus died once and for all.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27
Jesus died once, and for all people, for whosoever believes in Him.
So that takes care of who He died for, All People, not some "predestined few".
Notice the phrase: ... separate from sinners.
Sinner is a term used to describe those who are without, or apart from, or separate from, in which they do not have God: ie Lost.
It is indeed possible for a person to become lost, which is to say, they once belonged to Him, then they became lost, in which they returned to being a sinner: without God, dead to God, in need of repentance.
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
Lost = Sinner; separate from Jesus. without God, apart from God; does not have Jesus
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21
Like the sheep, people do wander from the truth, and need to be turned back or their soul will be lost: Eternal Death
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ah! GOOD one! Well done!
Also; a better rendering of that verse is; "...God chose you from the beginning (Gr: ἀπαρχὴν) to be saved..." rather than the NIV's "...God chose you as firstfruits to be saved..."
So, because of your pointing out that verse for me, I will revise my view.
As best I can tell, God chooses to save, by means of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and through belief in the Gospel, (meaning that's how He chooses to get the salvation done) those who He knows will believe the Gospel.
God knows "from eternity" who will believe and endure to the end in faith.
That's who He chooses.
Remember, past. present and future is always "right now" for God. He is not limited by time.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
atpollard
Member
No. this is not an unwillingness on my part, but an inability. I have, several times in different topics to varying degrees of detail on different details. Each time, what I write is misunderstood and I am shouted down by a flood of correction denouncing something I did not say. If I say that God will empower a 'chosen/elect' believer to continue to believe until the end, then someone will respond by refuting that someone can be saved without believing and still get to heaven (which is not what I said).
I am a 5 point Calvinist. What is described on this site as 5 point Calvinism usually sounds more like Hyper-Calvinism, which in spite of the fact that it has 'Calvinism' in the name has nothing to do with Traditional 5 Point Calvinism and is rejected by almost all Reformed Churches. So I refute what is called 'Calvinism', but is not and I have given up attempting to explain what 'Calvinism' actually is, because experience has shown that to be a foredoomed effort.
It is hard to silently watch your beliefs misrepresented and slandered.
It's very simple, just answer the question.
How can having freedom, the freedom to choose, somehow paint God as a monster?
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Those few, very few, Biblicists have a struggle more pronounced than other Christians because we are attacked from without as well as within. When a man or a woman follows the scripture and completely submits to the will of the Father, they/we are attacked from all sides as simpletons because the Gospel/Truth is simple.
The Gospel is so simple that even a child can firmly grasp it. It is too simple for any Adult, Thinking, Christian. Therefore all, except the very few that have submitted, want to make the entire thing complicated. The problem, as I see it and the Survey of the American Church in the mid-eighties by the Barna Group confirms it, better than 98% of the Church do not believe the basic tenants of the Christian Faith.
Jesus taught us to believe as a small child or we cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matt. 18:3) Small children never doubt doubt their dad's. And over and over in Church and in the world, people doubt in some form.