I was reading recently in Mark 10:13-14, Christ is out teaching and some bring him their children, the disciples begin to rebuke the people but Christ is "displeased" with what they are doing and then invites the children to him and then teaches a very important principle that I think is very misunderstood, he states "forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." He is teaching that children are pure in heart and are like those that receive the kingdom of God. Some teach that unless children are baptized or christened they will go to Hell. I feel like this verse clarifies that debate.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
For of such is the kingdom of God
- Thread starter A.W.1992
- Start date
daninthelionsden
Member
Children are innocent before the Lord and the Kingdom will be filled to the brim with all the children aborted, murdered, victims of war, disease, famine, still-born, accidents....etc.
Jim Parker
Member
I agree with your interpretation of what Jesus was teaching but that is a totally different subject from the debate about infant baptism although, I have heard that passage misapplied to the argument.
iakov the fool
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I believe we missed the point of this message!
It's not really about children but about how we are all like children.
Jesus said to pray, "Our Father", so where does that put all of us in relationship to God. It puts us as children of God. So what difference does it make it someone is ten years old or one hundred years old. We are all like children to God. If God has been around from the beginning, what is the someone that has been around from 1-100 years? It's like the same beginning point. So in the story, you have a bunch of 30 years old humans telling 10 year old humans that they aren't old enough to come before an eternal God. It's ridiculous because the whole Kingdom of God (which would include created angelic beings) are all like children to God.
So it is just pride to think that 20 extra years somehow qualifies us to come before God. And if you don't understand that, how are you going to get into heaven. You have to understand that we are all just like children to Him, otherwise your heart is full of pride and pride would get you seeking God for the love that you need.
It's not really about children but about how we are all like children.
Jesus said to pray, "Our Father", so where does that put all of us in relationship to God. It puts us as children of God. So what difference does it make it someone is ten years old or one hundred years old. We are all like children to God. If God has been around from the beginning, what is the someone that has been around from 1-100 years? It's like the same beginning point. So in the story, you have a bunch of 30 years old humans telling 10 year old humans that they aren't old enough to come before an eternal God. It's ridiculous because the whole Kingdom of God (which would include created angelic beings) are all like children to God.
So it is just pride to think that 20 extra years somehow qualifies us to come before God. And if you don't understand that, how are you going to get into heaven. You have to understand that we are all just like children to Him, otherwise your heart is full of pride and pride would get you seeking God for the love that you need.
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Jim Parker
Member
OK
I was responding to your statement: "Some teach that unless children are baptized or christened they will go to Hell. I feel like this verse clarifies that debate."
Mike
Member
While they may not believe this with certainty, there is a certain church in Rome that believes newborns should be baptized at the earliest opportunity. For a similar reason, a priest will be dispatched to a person on their deathbed to administer last rites.
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In response to A.W. 1992: "Some teach that unless children are baptized or christened they will go to Hell." you asked:
The Church would be the one and only Christian Church in existence at that time.
Letter of Augustine to Jerome (28) A.D. 415
Anyone who would say that even infants who pass from this life without participation in the sacrament [of Baptism] shall be made alive in Christ truly goes counter to the preaching of the Apostle and condemns the whole Church, where there is great haste in baptizing infants because it is believed without doubt that there is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in Christ.
and in the same letter
The Blessed Cyprian was not issuing some new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth, when he said that it was not the flesh but the soul that was [in danger of] being lost; and he agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born.
and further:
That they are damned if they so depart the body is the testimony of Holy Scripture and of the Holy Church.
Letter of Augustine to Vitalis, Layman of Carthage ca. A.D. 427
"We know that children, not yet having done nothing good or evil in their own life, no have they any merits from some prior life which no individuals can have as their own, until they come into the miseries of this life; that being born carnally according to Adam, at birth they first contract the contagion of that ancient death, nor are they freed from the penalty of eternal death, which just condemnation derives from one and is passed on to all, unless through grace they be reborn in Christ. (Being "reborn in Christ" is a reference to baptism.)
And there you have it boys and girls.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
In response to A.W. 1992: "Some teach that unless children are baptized or christened they will go to Hell." you asked:
That would be Bishop Augustine of Hippo.
The Church would be the one and only Christian Church in existence at that time.
Letter of Augustine to Jerome (28) A.D. 415
Anyone who would say that even infants who pass from this life without participation in the sacrament [of Baptism] shall be made alive in Christ truly goes counter to the preaching of the Apostle and condemns the whole Church, where there is great haste in baptizing infants because it is believed without doubt that there is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in Christ.
and in the same letter
The Blessed Cyprian was not issuing some new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth, when he said that it was not the flesh but the soul that was [in danger of] being lost; and he agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born.
and further:
That they are damned if they so depart the body is the testimony of Holy Scripture and of the Holy Church.
Letter of Augustine to Vitalis, Layman of Carthage ca. A.D. 427
"We know that children, not yet having done nothing good or evil in their own life, no have they any merits from some prior life which no individuals can have as their own, until they come into the miseries of this life; that being born carnally according to Adam, at birth they first contract the contagion of that ancient death, nor are they freed from the penalty of eternal death, which just condemnation derives from one and is passed on to all, unless through grace they be reborn in Christ. (Being "reborn in Christ" is a reference to baptism.)
And there you have it boys and girls.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
JohnDB
Member
I believe that it's called a Christening...A child given a first name with a promise to God to raise the child in the grace, knowledge and admonition of God.
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The teaching is many centuries older than the ROMAN CATHOLIC church.
It comes from the time of the undivided Church.
(See my post #8 above)
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
Is it forbidden to say "the Roman Catholic church"?
The teaching is many centuries older than the ROMAN CATHOLIC church.
It comes from the time of the undivided Church.
(See my post #8 above)
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
JohnDB
Member
10) Discussion of Catholic doctrine is allowed only in the One on One Debate and End Times forums. (ToS 2.2)
RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.
RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.
I never did care for Augustine.
That aside...
The RCC no longer teaches that unbaptized infants go to hell.
It also no longer teaches that a place called Limbo exists. It claims that the magisterium of the church NEVER taught this and that it was just speculation created by believers or some priests in the middle ages, perhaps.
The official teaching of the RCC is below, but if one speaks to a priest, he would be told that the child goes to heaven, with no doubt.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph no. 1261
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
This does bring up a problem.
If we're born with original sin, and God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, and the child cannot know Jesus, HOW could he go to heaven?
This is why we trust the mercy of God, as stated above.
That aside...
The RCC no longer teaches that unbaptized infants go to hell.
It also no longer teaches that a place called Limbo exists. It claims that the magisterium of the church NEVER taught this and that it was just speculation created by believers or some priests in the middle ages, perhaps.
The official teaching of the RCC is below, but if one speaks to a priest, he would be told that the child goes to heaven, with no doubt.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph no. 1261
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
This does bring up a problem.
If we're born with original sin, and God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, and the child cannot know Jesus, HOW could he go to heaven?
This is why we trust the mercy of God, as stated above.
It's really referred to as baptism.I believe that it's called a Christening...A child given a first name with a promise to God to raise the child in the grace, knowledge and admonition of God.
Christening - to make like Christ. To become a Christian.
In the baptismal rite, the baptized is annointed with chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifying the gift of the Holy spirit to the newly baptized.
1241 The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one "anointed" by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king.
1242 In the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, the post-baptismal anointing is the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation). In the Roman liturgy the post-baptismal anointing announces a second anointing with sacred chrism to be conferred later by the bishop Confirmation, which will as it were "confirm" and complete the baptismal anointing.
The following regards JohnDB's correct comment:
The Baptism of infants
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51
1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52
1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53
Faith and Baptism
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"
1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.
1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents' help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.
Jim Parker
Member
AH!
That brings a different topic: what is "original sin"?
The Western church, (including most conservative Protestant denominations, following the teachings of the RCC) speaks of "Original Sin." It includes the idea that death and suffering were created by God's as punishment for man's sin. Since all are subject to death and suffering, it was concluded that all are guilty of sin and, since an infant is incapable of sin, he must be guilty of Adam's sin.
The Eastern church speaks of "Ancestral sin." It includes the idea that man chooses to sin as soon as he is able because of the proclivity to sin inherited from Adam but, rejects the concepts that (1) God is the author of death and (2) that death is God's punishment for sin. Rather, they propose that sin is the willful separation from God, who is life, and movement toward death.
That's a "snapshot" of the issue.
For a more complete analysis see: The Ancestral Sin by John S. Romanides, Zephyr Publishing.
iakov the fool
I've never heard that death and suffering were created by God as punishment.
I'll have to look into this a bit tomorrow morning. I'm sure it's in the CCC.
I know that it's an EFFECT. (sometimes I get my Catholic and Protestant doctrine mixed up!)
Jim Parker
Member
See Cur Deus Homo by Anselm of Canterbury.
Will do.
Mike
Member
Baptisms and christenings are not the same thing. A Christening is a ceremony where the child's name is given. A baptism is where they administer a sacrament where the parents claim the infant for Christ.I believe that it's called a Christening...A child given a first name with a promise to God to raise the child in the grace, knowledge and admonition of God.
wondering I might be out of date, having left the RCC 30 years ago. Back then, there was strong urging of the parents to baptize their child at the very earliest opportunity because their souls were not secure with certainty until this was administered.
Hi Mike,
I never heard of the name ceremony. I'm not saying it doesn't exist... Not that I know of.
As far as baptism, yes, one is urged to baptize a child ASAP.
It's explained in the paragraphs I posted above.
I would like to say again that I am no longer Catholic but I do know a lot of the doctrine, as I'm sure you do.
However, yes, in the last 30 years a lot has changed. The RCC h as become more liberal, or, let's say, m ore in keeping with Vatican Council II.
chessman
Member
The same way we Christians "go to Heaven"... That is, through the forgiveness of our sin through Christ's atonement work:
Luke 23:34a (NASB) But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”
It is no coincidence nor trivial matter that Jesus Christ suffered through the pain of speaking those words while on the cross. They mean something theologically. Yes, His immediate intent was likely for the soldiers carrying out crucifixion orders. But the principle of God's forgiveness to those who "do not know what they are doing" applies to infant deaths too, IMO.
Death (of Adam, you, me, infants, all man) came through Adam.
Romans 5:12-14 (NASB) Therefore [God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us], just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Whether what's termed 'original sin' is imputed to infants when there is no law imputed to them, is debatable. But death certainly is.
Life eternal (on the other hand) comes through Christ for all whom He loved enough to die for. And evidently, 'Jesus loves the little children of the world, red and yellow, black and white. They are precious in His sight.' Baptized or not!