In the clouds

This is turning into a perfect example of how a man's reasoning fails, not too different from how the reasoning ability of Peter and Samuel failed them.

Reasoning that a person is saying something they actually aren't and then telling them they are wrong about what they are saying....just wow

It sure is. The only thing you can say to people like that is, let it be so according to your faith.
The spirit of unbelief has a stronghold on this board.

Un belief in what Edward

reba said:

Un belief in what Edward

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Aw, c'mon, Reba. Quit tryin' to bait me. You just wanna use your rolling pin, lol

Seriously though, What Brother Johan has been talkin' about to Free, that I commented on. Understanding of God's Word and Will, must come by revelation. Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned and no other way. The rational, or carnal mind has no place with the things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.../(KJV)

It's hard to imagine not using ones rational intellect for we've been (handicapped) by it our entire lives from birth. Brother Johan is speaking the truth. We're to be led of the Spirit. What's so hard about understanding that?

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.../

This is Christianity 101 Brothers and Sisters.Edited reba You guys are giving more credit to the enemy than you are God! You would be slaughtered by Goliath. WHere's the faith? All I can see is unbelief. And an effort to steer people away from engaging the Holy Spirit of God...and receive revelation!

We've never been taught how to walk in the Spirit, or to live as the spirit-beings that we were created as. It's not occultist. It's not dangerous, IT IS LIFE.

You so scared of evil spirits that you'll refuse God too, just to be on the safe side or something?! That's insane. There's absolutely no danger to it whatsoever. The worst thing that can happen, is God wont show up, because He does things in His own time frame. Keep praying. Keep engaging..

This is plastered all over the Bible and it can't be ignored to hold the flesh up up over Spirit. That man's dead. Get out of the religious box, God's bigger than that. No, everything about Him is not written down in scripture. If you don't want to ever receive anything more than the scripture...at least do what It says

If the carnal rational mind is your champion, I feel sorry for you. It's a big interesting universe and we're in the palm of our Lord's hands...!!!
Be is so to you according to your faith, although it sounds like...unbelief.

Well my question to you was an honest one of wanting to see if i really understood what you were saying.. Now i do .. Thank you for clarifying ..

Northman said:

This is turning into a perfect example of how a man's reasoning fails, not too different from how the reasoning ability of Peter and Samuel failed them.

Reasoning that a person is saying something they actually aren't and then telling them they are wrong about what they are saying....just wow

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Care to provide any examples? How do you know you are understanding everything everyone is saying?

Edward said:

Seriously though, What Brother Johan has been talkin' about to Free, that I commented on. Understanding of God's Word and Will, must come by revelation. Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned and no other way. The rational, or carnal mind has no place with the things of God.

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The Bible disagrees with you:

Isa 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act 17:3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Act 18:19 And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there, but he himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Act 22:1 "Brothers and fathers, hear the defense that I now make before you." (The whole chapter is Paul giving a reasoned defense. And there are numerous examples of this.)

Act 24:24 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you."

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

(All ESV.)

The problem is that you are beginning with the very thing you are trying to prove, rather than letting the texts speak for themselves. You cannot begin by presuming that reason came about after the fall (not based on Scripture) and is therefore not of God.

Edward said:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.../(KJV)

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This is about unbelievers.

Edward said:

It's hard to imagine not using ones rational intellect for we've been (handicapped) by it our entire lives from birth. Brother Johan is speaking the truth. We're to be led of the Spirit. What's so hard about understanding that?

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The two are not mutually exclusive.

Edward said:

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.../

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And this is being spoken specifically to the disciples. The result is the establishment of the Church and the writings of the NT.

Edward said:

This is Christianity 101 Brothers and Sisters.Edited reba You guys are giving more credit to the enemy than you are God! You would be slaughtered by Goliath. WHere's the faith? All I can see is unbelief.

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It's because you're reading into things. This has nothing to do with unbelief nor is anyone "giving more credit to the enemy than [we] are God".

Edward said:

And an effort to steer people away from engaging the Holy Spirit of God...and receive revelation!

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Revelation about what, exactly? No one is steering anyone "away from engaging the Holy Spirit". It should be said though that you are steering people away from using their God-given, God-created reason.

Edward said:

We've never been taught how to walk in the Spirit, or to live as the spirit-beings that we were created as. It's not occultist. It's not dangerous, IT IS LIFE.

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And you have yet to even prove that that is the case. What is exceedingly dangerous are your now numerous beliefs that have no foundation in Scripture.

Edward said:

You so scared of evil spirits that you'll refuse God too, just to be on the safe side or something?! That's insane. There's absolutely no danger to it whatsoever. The worst thing that can happen, is God wont show up, because He does things in His own time frame. Keep praying. Keep engaging..

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That is far from the worst that can happen. The worst that can, and does, happen, is that one starts believing in all sorts of nonsense about Scripture, believing that they've heard from the Holy Spirit, and end up believing and teaching heresy, condemning themselves and those who believe them to hell. Charles Russell comes to mind, as does a former friend who wouldn't listen to reason and now believes all sorts of nonsense about God and the Bible.

Edward said:

This is plastered all over the Bible and it can't be ignored to hold the flesh up up over Spirit. That man's dead. Get out of the religious box, God's bigger than that. No, everything about Him is not written down in scripture. If you don't want to ever receive anything more than the scripture...at least do what It says

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So you are saying that Scripture is insufficient. That explains a lot. The Bible is everything we need for salvation and living lives of godliness. The Bible warns against adding to Scripture.

Edward said:

If the carnal rational mind is your champion, I feel sorry for you. It's a big interesting universe and we're in the palm of our Lord's hands...!!!
Be is so to you according to your faith, although it sounds like...unbelief.

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Nothing at all to do with unbelief; everything to do with what the Bible does and does not say.

Free said:

The Bible disagrees with you:

Isa 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act 17:3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

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You're taking those out of context. They weren't talking about Spirit-revelation, but about sinning and salvation. I don't know what it is, you seem to do that a lot, making scriptures fit your belief system instead of trying to gain understanding about what is really meant.

Free said:

And this is being spoken specifically to the disciples. The result is the establishment of the Church and the writings of the NT.

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Those words aren't for us? You're going cessationist here. God is alive and well and has not changed.

Free said:

So you are saying that Scripture is insufficient. That explains a lot. The Bible is everything we need for salvation and living lives of godliness. The Bible warns against adding to Scripture.

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NO. Don't put words into my mouth. I said no such thing.

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
Do not reply to this post in this thread

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
Do not reply to this post in this thread
Reba

Edward said:

You're taking those out of context. They weren't talking about Spirit-revelation, but about sinning and salvation. I don't know what it is, you seem to do that a lot, making scriptures fit your belief system instead of trying to gain understanding about what is really meant.

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Nothing I gave was out of context and the passages show that you are wrong. It is not I who is making Scripture fit what I believe, that is you. You have not given anything to support a number of your assertions on a few different topics now. You come up with some idea and then read that idea into any "support" you can find.

The argument was: "The rational, or carnal mind has no place with the things of God." And then you proceeded to give 1 Cor. 2:14 to support that.

What I gave were a number of passages that clearly show using reason, one's rational mind, very much has a place in speaking of the things of God.

Edward said:

Those words aren't for us? You're going cessationist here. God is alive and well and has not changed.

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That has nothing to do with cessationism. It's about context.

Edward said:

NO. Don't put words into my mouth. I said no such thing.

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You didn't say it but what other choice does one have? If one is still looking for revelation, then the Bible--God's revelation to us--is insufficient. Look at some of those who thought the same as you, that there is more revelation to be had--Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, and any number of prosperity teachers and cult leaders.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (ESV)

Jud 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (ESV)

Having said all that, I will bow out, for now. Be careful, Edward. Numerous people have been led astray by thinking there was more revelation to be had, despite Scripture saying otherwise.

Free said:

Care to provide any examples? How do you know you are understanding everything everyone is saying?

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This thread is an example. Someone is talking about everything from God being revelation. The entire Bible is revelation. Everything handed to all prophets and apostles is revelation. Not a single person can discern or reason anything about God in the first place if they arent told anything to begin with. The source from where they are taught is all revelation.

Free said:

Numerous people have been led astray by thinking there was more revelation to be had, despite Scripture saying otherwise.

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And this is the fantasy being portrayed. That this actually happened here. It did not. The general theme of what the original guy was talking about actually agrees with you, that all scripture is revelation. NOBODY ever said scripture wasnt enough, they tried to communicate that scripture itself is revelation.

Jim Parker said:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Kingdom of God is within believers because that is where God rules. The Greek word translated "Kingdom" (βασιλεύς) primarily refers to the reign or rule of the king rather than the territory of a kingdom.

The Pharisees, to whom Jesus said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke17:20-21) quite likely had in mind a restored physical kingdom of Israel in which the subjects of the king, a descendant of David, adhered strictly to the Law of Moses to come to be when God destroyed all of His enemies.

The Lord will return and when He does he will restore the entire universe, all of creation, to the original purity and perfection in which He created it before the fall. And when He does return, He will rule in person.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become
the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ,
and He shall reign forever and ever!”


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

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The Lord will return in us and when He does we will restore the entire universe . . . .etc by Him working His work from out of us making us the ones that is seen and Him not seen and us is seen over the entire earth and not Him because there will be no sign.

Free said:

Sure it can, at least, it can comprehend a good deal about God.


But that has nothing to do with using reason. Here is a better version:

1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. (ESV)

The meaning is that we cannot understand God's thoughts. Paul is speaking of the things of which he is writing about; those things that have been revealed to him by the Spirit. What it does not mean is that we cannot use our God-given reasoning to understand things in Scripture. We rely on the Spirit to guide us and bring illumination on difficulties but we are never to shut our brains off, we still use our reasoning.


No. We have the Bible which is God's revelation to us. We do not need more revelation. The only reason to think we need more revelation is that the Bible is insufficient. Is that what you believe?


What contradiction? Where was the first contradiction? Reason itself is amoral; there is nothing inherently sinful about it. It's what guides our reason that causes the problems.


Many times it is simple, such as in Luke 17:21. Because the Bible was communicated to us in human languages, we can therefore read and study to come to an understanding of a great many things in Scripture.


I don't understand what you're saying here.

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YEP . . .THERE IS A WAY . . .IN GOD'S MIND . . .NOT JUDGING THEM AND US . .. BECAUSE WE ARE BUT THE SAME . . . AND GIVING THEM AND US THE WORD . . .USING THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH EVERYONE . . .WHERE THE KINGDOM IS .. . BECAUSE OF HIM IN US.

I was speaking about God's mind that know that human beings are forgiven. So He is not judging anymore. And from this faith that saw His death in the future He was speaking to the Pharisees and us. And He taught about the Kingdom and where it is located. It is in Him and Him being in us mean it is in us.

And this needs to be believed to be experienced. No reasoning will make it happen because God's power works through faith. But it cannot be believed if God does not say it. And only to whom He say it that person will believe it. And now I believe it and say it because I am already experiencing it and living in it. Therefor I am a witness of it. And my sole purpose here is to teach about it and how it happened to take others also into the glory of it.

For some reason, I heard this last night and felt compelled to post. I was going to on "what are you listening to", but I think it goes here.

LovethroughDove said:

For some reason, I heard this last night and felt compelled to post. I was going to on "what are you listening to", but I think it goes here.

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So what made you decide to post it here?
Love Johan

Johan said:

This second coming is right over the earth


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


But not Himself!

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Jesus Christ will physically return at the end of the age, to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, in which all His people will be caught up into the air, in the clouds to be with Him as He descends down to Jerusalem.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18


Key Verse:

• then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Three major things will occur at His coming:

• The Resurrection
• The Rapture
• The destruction of the false messiah [aka: the antichrist]

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Key Verses:

• concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him
• destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB

LovethroughDove said:

For some reason, I heard this last night and felt compelled to post. I was going to on "what are you listening to", but I think it goes here.

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Beautiful.

Thanks!

JLB said:

Jesus Christ will physically return at the end of the age, to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, in which all His people will be caught up into the air, in the clouds to be with Him as He descends down to Jerusalem.

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Actually we will come of age . . and Jesus will appear in us . .which are the "clouds".

JLB said:

Three major things will occur at His coming:

• The Resurrection
• The Rapture
• The destruction of the false messiah [aka: the antichrist]

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Major thing that will happen is we ruling by His wisdom.

JLB said:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Key Verses:

• concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him
• destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB

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Yep . . .the depth of sin will be revealed first.

Love Johan

Johan said:

Actually we will come of age . . and Jesus will appear in us . .which are the "clouds".

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Acts 1 strongly suggests otherwise:

9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." (ESV)