Nathan
Member
Its from the Textus Receptus
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/1ti/3/1/t_conc_1122006
Its also not just the order of words, it is also the function.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
Its from the Textus Receptus
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/1ti/3/1/t_conc_1122006
Its also not just the order of words, it is also the function.
Jim Parker
Member
That's the truth. They were invited but declined the invitation.
1Ti 2:3-3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The call to salvation goes to everyone.
The response is up to the individual.
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
An adjective modifies a noun.
What noun does the word "one" modify at John 10:29.
Paul was very clear. It is the Holy Spirit Himself that is the seal. And a deposit which guarantees an inheritance for the day of redemption.
This has nothing to do with the sealing WITH the Holy Spirit.
Can't children rebel against their parents???
Nothing I've posted about any verse is changed by anything else in the context.
Again, where are the verses about someone "leaving the seal completely"?? There aren't any.
I don't argue that at all. The Bible makes that very clear. But the problem is that some make the huge assumption that forsaking Him means loss of salvation.
I said this:
"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"
How does being in "one sentence" make them related? If Paul referred to believers and unbelievers in one sentence, would that make them related? Of course not.
The plain language is clear; Paul was referring to two things that are irrevocable; God's gifts AND God's call.
Rom 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
What hasn't been shown is that in 11:29 one is the consequence of the other. What is just plain language is that there are 2 things noted in 11:29 that are irrevocable; God's gifts and God's call.
"It's both. Paul said so in plain language.
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." Rom 11:29"
How does being in "one sentence" make them related? If Paul referred to believers and unbelievers in one sentence, would that make them related? Of course not.
The plain language is clear; Paul was referring to two things that are irrevocable; God's gifts AND God's call.
I don't see any way this relates to my post. Paul said that 2 things are irrevocable: God's gifts and God's call.
Not true at all. One is NOT a consequence of the other. Where is the proof for that? In fact, Paul noted that even Gentiles are called:
Rom 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
What is the context for this?
Yes, you did. But there was no proof or evidence to support the claim.
Well, there are many gifts of God. Paul specifically described 3 of them, available to both Jew and Gentile.
What hasn't been shown is that in 11:29 one is the consequence of the other. What is just plain language is that there are 2 things noted in 11:29 that are irrevocable; God's gifts and God's call.
Jim Parker
Member
That's exactly what is happening when someone falls away and deserts his salvation.
He has divorced himself from Christ.
Jim Parker
Member
What is factual about grammar is factual to EVERYONE about grammar.
Nathan
Member
The seal that is spoken of, the actual word used, is truly that of which a king put on a letter. I am sorry if you do not accept this as truth, but it is the actual definition of the word used. There is no way to change the definition without re-writing the letter Paul wrote.
If you forsake Christ you forsake salvation. There really is nothing complex about it. Only Christ can save someone - you are not saved by something you did. That is a works based salvation, and it is against what the Bible teaches. It is not an assumption, it is a truth of God.
1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
There is a difference between sinning, and forsaking Christ. We are prone to sin, and in this body we will no doubt still sin. That does not mean we have rebelled against God, and it does not mean we have forsaken Him. Do we discipline a child when they do something wrong? So does God. If that child decides to leave us, then how will we discipline them? If we decide to leave God, how will He discipline us?
We don't have to rewrite what Paul was telling us about Gods seal. Gods seal is forever.
John 6:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
sphragizó: to seal
Original Word: σφραγίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sphragizó
Phonetic Spelling: (sfrag-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I set a seal upon
Definition: I seal, set a seal upon.
HELPS Word-studies
4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
The same seal he uses on all who have believed. Praise God!!
Eph 1:3~~New American Standard Bible
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
chessman
Member
How would someone go about 'submitting' to His discipline of death, exactly?
And where does Heb 12 say anything about submitting to His discipline anyway?
Why bring up passages that aren't even talking about the Lord's discipline???
Psa 81:11-16 is about listening to His appealing voice (not 'submitting to His discipline).
Rom 10:1-4 is Paul's prayer for unsaved people, not His discipline.
Romans 10:1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation.
The Lord is 100% effective with His discipline, perfecting the faith He originated. He originates and perfects His sons using His discipline if so required. Even if it requires death.
Let's say a son (a belever) needs and receives the ultimate discipline (death), just exactly how would that son go about 'submitting' to further discipline, to use your word not found in Heb 12?
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chessman
Member
An adjective complements or defines more precisely a noun, per "The Elements of New Testament Greek" by Jeremy Duff, David Wenham:
"5.2 USE OF ADJECTIVES (1)
ATTRIBUTIVE The most common use of an adjective is called the attributive use. This is where the adjective defines more precisely an attribute of one of the nouns or pronouns in a sentence."
Start reading it for free: http://a.co/aKcCfiz
--------
PREDICATIVE
"In these sentences it is important to understand that the adjective is not an object, but rather is an adjective qualifying the noun: ‘holy’ is telling us something further about ‘the law’. Thus it needs to agree with the noun in gender, case and number. However, such use of an adjective is different from the attributive use, because the adjective is not merely qualifying one of the nouns in the sentence –the whole point of the sentence is to make this description. The adjective itself completes the sentence (hence the adjective is called a complement). This use of the adjective is called the predicative use. To tell the difference between the attributive and predicative use, try deleting the adjective from the sentence. If it still makes sense, the adjective was attributive. If it doesn’t, it was predicative."
Start reading it for free: http://a.co/frCKqdK
--------
So, in order to determine which noun this adjective is complementing, it is necessary to look at the sentence (or clause) in which the word is being used. Its case, number and gender MUST match the noun it complements (again per Duff/Wenham).
Besides biblehub's interlinear and Duff/Wenham's textbook defining g3762 as adjective, so does the interlinear found at:
https://thebible.org/gt/index
(Among a bunch more I found that also list g3762 as an adjective).
In John 10:29 3762 oudeis οὐδεὶς; no one
Adj-NMS is Nominative, Masculine, Singular.
So all that is needed to answer is to determine which noun is Nominative, Masculine, Singular within this sentence/clause and you'll have the answer.
Hint, it's the noun that's "greater than all". None match Him. And He and the Son are one.
Even though, once again, your question has two assumptive errors in it.
There is no word "one" found in John 10:29. The Greek word is "no one", or none (for short). The word means "not one" in English. G3762 does not mean "one" nor do all adjectives "modify" nouns. Some complement them. In this case, completely rules out any other noun being greater than the Father.
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Nathan
Member
Yep, that's the correct seal. The one that is on those who do believe.
Question is, can a person who is owned by someone else have that same seal?
No, no,no. The same seal that the Father put on His Son, He put on those who have believed. Can this seal be broken?Yep, that's the correct seal. The one that is on those who do believe.
Question is, can a person who is owned by someone else have that same seal?
If it can be broken on believers that SAME seal He put on His Son could be broken.
Can the seal The Father put on His Son be broken? No. And He put the same seal on those who have believed.
Nathan
Member
Where does this "death" discipline come from? You keep throwing this around and I've never seen anything thing that says this?
I think you answer your own question with this idea of some sort of death discipline. A person cannot submit to His discipline once they die.
Nathan
Member
Ok, so you posted the definition of this seal, and then you turn around and deny its meaning?
The seal is the Spirit. His Son never denied Him. So He always had the seal. Jesus alway did what His Father told Him. There is no comparison between the seal on Christ and on us, except it's the same seal.
Nathan
Member
As far as 'submitting' being found in Hebrews 12 - I'm not quite sure why you think I said that the word 'submit' was in there?
The word is not used, but the exhortation of it is talked about multiple times.
Hebrews 12:1 (ESV) 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:4 (ESV) 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Hebrews 12:7 (ESV) 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Hebrews 12:12 (ESV) 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
These are just some. The whole chapter is about it.
chessman
Member
1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died. But if we were evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged. But if we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world.
Its the same seal, but we can't compare the same seal? Seems a stretch to me.
If God sealed His Son with His seal. And believers who HAVE believed are sealed with the SAME seal......the logical conclusion would be if that seal could be broken, Christ could be unsealed.
Why even mention the call of God if the call of God is not related to the gifts? He calls. He gives life.
The shepherd calls his sheep. John 10:3
They hear his voice. John 10:27
He gives them life. John 10:28
The call of God is consequential. It doesn't return empty.
Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
It can not be undone.
What sense does it make to say a gift can be undone? How do you 'do' or 'undo' a gift?
Nathan
Member
Anywhere else?
How do you recon that death is discipline? I mean, if death means being present with the Lord - how would that be discipline?
Do people actually discipline their kids by giving them the relief from what you are wanting them to do?
If I was having my son rake leaves, and told him that when he was done he could come inside, and he kept on goofing off - what discipline is he receiving by brining him inside?