What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

    Read daily articles from Focus on the Family in the Marriage and Parenting Resources forum.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

    Read The Gospel Online.

Jesus promise: Recipients of eternal life will never perish!

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,038.00
Goal
$1,038.00
Donate View
Nathan said:
It should be known that God does not test us to see for Himself. God knows everything.

It should also be known that in Christ, through faith, we can know that we do have eternal life. We don't have to wait and see if we pass the test if we stay in the faith - we can have assurance.

Trials/temptations/discipline is always a way to show us the truth and point us to God - pure unity in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the Father knows. But the Father is greater than the Son. In the past the LORD/Son tested Abraham to know if Abraham feared God Gen. 22:12 The LORD/Son sent angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if they were doing according to the outcry, and if not, he would know. So he had to come down to see for himself. The LORD destroyed the people he saved out of Egypt. Did he know they were going to be disobedient? And re. the day, Jesus said no one knows not even the Son, only the Father knows. Matthew 24:36

Sure. I think you can know; If you possess the Spirit 1 John 4:13 and you bear good fruit.

But that doesn't preclude his discipline.

So I look at his discipline as being good for us; like an athlete in training is disciplined. It makes us stronger. 2 Cor. 12:10
 
Last edited:
I John 3:20 KJV
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

We place our reliance on God and not on our natural knowledge / new heart of flesh.

eddif
 
eddif said:
I John 3:20 KJV
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

We place our reliance on God and not on our natural knowledge / new heart of flesh.

eddif
Click to expand...
Exacatly. :) We are friends of Him, and we can know all He wants us to know. We have not because we ask not.

John 15
12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
 
FreeGrace said:
When I say "do something" I refer to doing any kind of works. Believing is not a work.
Click to expand...
That seems like an easy way to make things fit OSAS theology. If it contradicts one point, just declare that it isn't what it is.

What do you think one must do to be saved?
Click to expand...
I didn't "do" anything. God saved me purely by His own purpose, grace, and love.

Also, just curious: why doesn't John 10:28 convince you of eternal security?
Click to expand...
I believe I am secure in Christ Jesus my Lord.
 
FreeGrace said:
No, it wasn't. But wasn't God's purpose achieved? And wasn't Job ultimately blessed beyond his imagination? Yes.
Click to expand...
When you answer your own question, it comes across as presumptuous. To your last question, before you answered, I cannot answer for Job so I don't know. He did not get his family back and Scripture only says he was blessed in his latter days more than in the beginning but I haven't seen where it says, "beyond his imagination." When I read the text it sounds more like the blessing described was of earthly wealth - more sons and very beautiful daughters, abundance of livestock, and long full life on earth.
 
I said:
"This is an interesting comment. I was unaware of any probationary time period BEFORE Jesus gives eternal life. Which text teaches this?

In fact, in John 5:24, Jesus was clear as to WHEN one HAS (possesses) eternal life; those who believe. They HAVE it right now."
MarkT said:
It's not believe and you're saved.
Click to expand...
Which directly contradicts Jesus' teaching. He said those who believe HAVE eternal life. So it IS believe and you're saved. Further, Paul said the SAME THING to the jailer's question of how to be saved.

Your faith has to be tested. Jesus even said it is necessary that temptations come.
Click to expand...
Sure, one's faith will be tested. But which text teaches that failure of one's faith results in loss of salvation?

Also, where did Jesus say that temptations are necessary either FOR salvation, or TO maintain salvation? He didn't.

Mt. 18:7 You have to endure God's discipline (not what you think it is) to the end to be saved. "But he who endures to the end will be saved." Mt. 24:13
Click to expand...
Once again this verse gets taken totally out of context. The context is about the Tribulation. The 7 year one at the end of the age. And even a quick read of the context shows that physical death is the context, so that's how "saved" is being used there; saved or delivered or rescued from physical death. It's rather obvious.

James said the same thing. "Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12
Click to expand...
Why should one assume that the crown of life equates to salvation? There is no reason. There are several crowns mentioned in the Bible, and ALL of them are in relation to behavior. If any crown represents salvation, then we are saved by behavior and NOT by grace, which is in direct contrast to what Paul taught in Eph 2:8.

You have to be tested and endure trials and sufferings and temptations to see if your faith is genuine. Endurance is necessary to run the race. The testing is to see if a man's faith is genuine, if he falls into unbelief or holds it fast. Those who believe for a while and then fall away are not saved.

"Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 1 Pet. 4:12-13
 
Last edited:
I said:
"When I say "do something" I refer to doing any kind of works. Believing is not a work."
WIP said:
That seems like an easy way to make things fit OSAS theology. If it contradicts one point, just declare that it isn't what it is.
Click to expand...
Huh? Paul was clear when he distinguished faith from works in Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Isn't the distinction clear in these verses?

I didn't "do" anything. God saved me purely by His own purpose, grace, and love.
Click to expand...
Did you believe in His Son for salvation, or not?

Paul said this:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Seems very clear to me. God saves those who believe. But believing isn't a work. It's non-meritorious. But it's doing something.

All thinking is doing something. But thinking isn't meritorious.

I believe I am secure in Christ Jesus my Lord.
Click to expand...
Based on what, exactly?
 
I said:
"No, it wasn't. But wasn't God's purpose achieved? And wasn't Job ultimately blessed beyond his imagination? Yes."
WIP said:
When you answer your own question, it comes across as presumptuous.
Click to expand...
Sorry for how others take my posts. So I'll explain my "ways". By posing a question and then answering, I'm giving my understanding. Those who may disagree are then free to challenge, refute, reject, etc my answer to my question.

By just posing a question, leaves the door wide open to be ignored. So I anwer my questions when I want more dialogue. I just as often don't answer my questions because I am just seeking information from others, which they may answer or not.

I see no "presumption" in providing an answer to my own question. We are all entitled to our own opinions and thoughts. So I give mine when I answer my own questions. Just to stimulate conversastionn.

To your last question, before you answered, I cannot answer for Job so I don't know. He did not get his family back and Scripture only says he was blessed in his latter days more than in the beginning but I haven't seen where it says, "beyond his imagination."
Click to expand...
The Bible says he got another family. God replaced his first one with another one.
Job 42:10-15

When I read the text it sounds more like the blessing described was of earthly wealth - more sons and very beautiful daughters, abundance of livestock, and long full life on earth.
Click to expand...
Job was blessed for his faithfulness in the face of horrible disaster, which the devil brought on him.
 
eddif said:
I John 3:20 KJV
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

We place our reliance on God and not on our natural knowledge / new heart of flesh.

eddif
Click to expand...

Re. sin, God knows everything in our hearts. God is greater than our hearts. So if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and he takes the condemnation away ie. he makes our hearts clean. So if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.

But re. faith, we must all pass through the fire. Only as by fire.1 Cor. 3:15 God doesn't tempt anyone, but he does allow it to happen so it can be seen who is of God. The fact is many will fall away and God allows it. ie. he allows the devil a time.

Paul writes about training. 'the divine training that is in faith.' Tim. 1:4 That's the way I see it. It's about exercising faith.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.
 
FreeGrace said:
The Bible says he got another family. God replaced his first one with another one.
Click to expand...
Job got twice what he had.

Job got the same number of children the second time.
So
Job had his first family reserved for the resurrection
Job got the same number again
Thus 10+10=20 , or twice the offspring. In addition to his first secure family (better statement than replaced) humans do not cease to exist, but are reserved to the judgement. Job prayed ..........


eddif
 
eddif said:
Where are you in regards to this?
http://ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm
Click to expand...
I consult it for my understanding of Greek verbs. I also have Dan Wallace's "Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics" for a deeper understanding.

I tried Greek at a point in time. Frustrated I quit the class. I did learn continuing action is implied.
Click to expand...
My goal was not to speak it, but to get a grasp of its grammar.

I assume your comment is regarding the present tense. Yes, continuing action, but not on-going action out into the future, as it seems the loss of salvation group understands it. Their claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved is unfounded in Scripture.

Each group tends to explain Greek so it agrees with their doctrine.
eddif
Click to expand...
The ever-present problem is to ensure that the explanation is accurate.
 
Two people will hardly ever see things exactly the same way. A liver does not do what kidneys do. A conversation between two christians is often strained. They often have different callings and gifts. If we are all working for the body of Christ, we accept the other person. Do we wonder where they are coming from? Yes.
......
Church discipline is way to keep perishing down. If we see a brother drifting away from:
Belief
Trust
Faith
Listening to Holy Spirit
Other?

We go to them and bring up issues. If we are on the same thoughts, problem solved. To me this is a method of not perishing. We help each other. A person overtaken in a sin needs help. A person tempted and listening to the quickening spirit might not need another's help.

eddif
 
I asked, 'Does God believe for you?' And you replied:

Nathan said:
No, He enables us to believe. Therefore the action of believing is God, the response to His action(which is a reaction) is us.
Click to expand...

You appear to be saying, perhaps thinking, two opposing things at the same time:
1. No, God does not believe for you (your answer to my question)
2. Therefore the action of believing is God (your statement)

Have you believed in God?

God credits His righteousness to those who believe, not to those who are only enabled to believe.
 
Last edited:
Gregg T said:
I asked, 'Does God believe for you?' And you replied:



You appear to be saying, perhaps thinking, two opposing things at the same time:
1. No, God does not believe for you (your answer to my question)
2. Therefore the action of believing is God (your statement)

Have you believed in God?

God credits His righteousness to those who believe, not to those who are only enabled to believe.
Click to expand...
Maybe an analogy will help.

I have a car engine that 'works'. However, it does not work on its own. I have to start it, and control it. The ability for it to work is there, but without me it sits 'dead'. I decide if it works or not - so to say it does the work because the result is seen is false because I do the work to enable it.

God works in us to produce the work that comes out of us. Even our faith is a result of God planting it in us.

God has credited righteousness on the whole world. We either look to it for imputation on us, or we decide to reside in our own righteous 'works'. The credit is there, it's the person who rejects it in favor of their own who does not receive it.
 
FreeGrace said:
Which directly contradicts Jesus' teaching. He said those who believe HAVE eternal life. So it IS believe and you're saved. Further, Paul said the SAME THING to the jailer's question of how to be saved.


Sure, one's faith will be tested. But which text teaches that failure of one's faith results in loss of salvation?

Also, where did Jesus say that temptations are necessary either FOR salvation, or TO maintain salvation? He didn't.


Once again this verse gets taken totally out of context. The context is about the Tribulation. The 7 year one at the end of the age. And even a quick read of the context shows that physical death is the context, so that's how "saved" is being used there; saved or delivered or rescued from physical death. It's rather obvious.


Why should one assume that the crown of life equates to salvation? There is no reason. There are several crowns mentioned in the Bible, and ALL of them are in relation to behavior. If any crown represents salvation, then we are saved by behavior and NOT by grace, which is in direct contrast to what Paul taught in Eph 2:8.

You have to be tested and endure trials and sufferings and temptations to see if your faith is genuine. Endurance is necessary to run the race. The testing is to see if a man's faith is genuine, if he falls into unbelief or holds it fast. Those who believe for a while and then fall away are not saved.

"Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 1 Pet. 4:12-13
Click to expand...

Jesus said, he who endures to the end will be saved. We don't know when the end will be.

Matthew 10:22
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 22:32
but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

Obviously Jesus thought it was important enough to pray for them. If he wasn't praying for their salvation, then what was he praying for them for? He said, 'that your faith may not fail." Obviously it wasn't enough that they believed. He had to pray that their faith would not fail.

Jesus said, "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes! Matthew 18:7

Mt:24:13 is a teaching for all time. How do you know when the end will be? We must always think today. We must always be prepared for the end. Watch cuz you don't know when he will return.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Matthew 24:43
But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have let his house be broken into.

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Which crown would you say he is talking about when he says the crown of life?
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.
 
Last edited:
Nathan said:
Maybe an analogy will help.

I have a car engine that 'works'. However, it does not work on its own. I have to start it, and control it. The ability for it to work is there, but without me it sits 'dead'. I decide if it works or not - so to say it does the work because the result is seen is false because I do the work to enable it.

God works in us to produce the work that comes out of us. Even our faith is a result of God planting it in us.

God has credited righteousness on the whole world. We either look to it for imputation on us, or we decide to reside in our own righteous 'works'. The credit is there, it's the person who rejects it in favor of their own who does not receive it.
Click to expand...
I prefer analogies from Scripture, but lets use the above.

You stated, 'I decide if it works or not' which is to say God decides if a person believes or does not believe. That would contradict God's imperitive and expectation for all men to believe.

Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out."

It is right that the person believe. Yes God gives us faith (a noun), but we are responsable to believe ( a verb implying action done by him who is responce-able).
 
Gregg T said:
I prefer analogies from Scripture, but lets use the above.

You stated, 'I decide if it works or not' which is to say God decides if a person believes or does not believe. That would contradict God's imperitive and expectation for all men to believe.

Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out."

It is right that the person believe. Yes God gives us faith (a noun), but we are responsable to believe ( a verb implying action done by him who is responce-able).
Click to expand...

Ok, lets use the analogy of the seed and soil.

The soil has no life in itself. The seed does has life in itself. The soil does not have the ability to plant the seed in itself, nor the ability to make the seed transform into a plant, nor the ability to sustain the plants growth.

The soil is a medium upon which God does His work. God plants the seed, God gives the water, and God gives the nutrients for the plant to grow. Without God, the soil is just dirt - lifeless.

God does decide if a person can believe or not. You cannot decide to be a part of Gods flock. He has to choose you.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

John 6
43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

God does not expect all men to believe, but He does desire it.
 
FreeGrace said:
I said:
"No, it wasn't. But wasn't God's purpose achieved? And wasn't Job ultimately blessed beyond his imagination? Yes."

Sorry for how others take my posts. So I'll explain my "ways". By posing a question and then answering, I'm giving my understanding. Those who may disagree are then free to challenge, refute, reject, etc my answer to my question.

By just posing a question, leaves the door wide open to be ignored. So I anwer my questions when I want more dialogue. I just as often don't answer my questions because I am just seeking information from others, which they may answer or not.

I see no "presumption" in providing an answer to my own question. We are all entitled to our own opinions and thoughts. So I give mine when I answer my own questions. Just to stimulate conversastionn.


The Bible says he got another family. God replaced his first one with another one.
Job 42:10-15


Job was blessed for his faithfulness in the face of horrible disaster, which the devil brought on him.
Click to expand...
Job had more children, yes. If one of our daughters died and then we had another, I can assure you that the second would not be a replacement for the one lost. The sting of her death would remain.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top