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The accuser of the children of God works hard to discredit their testimonies and the truth of God. He is a liar from the beginning, and started out twisting the words of God to make Adam and Eve unsure.

He only wants people to believe certain things in order to distract them from others.

Those passages have been considered, and should be, in order to understand the fullness of Gods plan for us. If we pass over the passages, and close our eyes, then we harden our hearts toward the truth. We are then 'sitting ducks' - or better understood as sheep wondering from the fold.

The passage in Revelation is simple and straight forward. The one in John is too.

Jesus was not speaking of a mans 'work' being burned up as Paul was in 1 Corinthians 3. Its plain to see, Jesus was speaking of those who bear no fruit - not the works they do. There is no relation between the passages, they are speaking of different things.

Luke 12
35 "Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning,
36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks.
37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them.
38 If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants!
39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into.
40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

I wonder sometimes if people know what it means to beat the fellow servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk.
 
dirtfarmer said:
dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

If God does not allow man to have "works" for salvation, then why would he allow man to have "works" for keeping salvation?
Click to expand...


Yes, the scripture and context you chose, to present your "argument" is correct, and any Christian should agree, since the context involves the works of the law of Moses.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:7-16

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law;

  • I suppose you are referring to Ephesians 2, where the message and context are the same:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:8-14

  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

I agree with you, that we are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace, however understanding what grace means to God, and what some understand grace to be, could be very much different in perspective.

Here is what the same Paul, teaches us about what grace is, [The Spirit of Grace; The Holy Spirit] and what grace teaches us.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

  • the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Interestingly enough, Paul continues to teach us in Ephesians and Titus, as well as all his letters, about, goods works.

  • He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
  • For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works

We are to be a people, who are set apart and righteous, who practice righteousness, as we obey the righteous leadings of His Spirit, thereby putting to death the sinful deeds of the flesh, walking in the light as He is in the light, expressing His victorious Life through our lives, bring Glory and honor to Him.



JLB
 
Nathan said:
No, a believer who grieves the Spirit is not alienated and hostile toward God. In Christ that is taken away.
Click to expand...
So being out of fellowship doesn't alienate one from another??? Of course it does.

You are very quick to claim nothing has been proven from the Bible, but you are in that same boat.
Click to expand...
No. No one has shown AnY verse that out and out says that salvation can be lost. Period.

otoh, John 5:24 tells us when a person becomes a recipient of eternal life; when they first believe. John 10:28 is Jesus' very plain promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

These verses absolutely establish eternal security. But people will continue to see just what they want to see.

You have yet to prove that a person cannot deny and leave Christ.
Click to expand...
I've never argued against the freedom to deny Christ. But the hang-up continues to be what "leave Christ" actually means. I've been quite clear what it means. It does mean to rebel, but it doesn't mean losing the indwelling Holy Spirit (being unsealed) or losing salvation. That's what has never been proven.

I've shown it true by the very example of Judas(for one).
Click to expand...
Judas is no proof of losing salvation. He never had it. Jesus even noted that he wasn't "clean", which meant saved in John 13. So, please try again.
 
Last edited:
I said:
"OK, I agree that any believer who turns away from God will be miserable here on here. No doubt. However, wouldn't you agree that WHEN such a person enters eternity WITH God, and WITHOUT his old sinful human nature, his attitude will markedly improve?"
WIP said:
But aren't you making an assumption here?
Click to expand...
How so?

edit: I suppose I could be as well because I have not yet entered heaven so I can't say with certainty but it does seem that the assumption that one would forget his/her desire to be out of heaven certainly could make it easier to accept the OSAS position from a human point of view.
Click to expand...
But why not the biblical point of view, where Jesus promises recipients of eternal life that they will never perish?
 
WIP said:
Isn't this precisely what the OSNAS argument has been saying...one can reject and walk away from the gift of God?
Click to expand...
The first part is clearly true from Scripture; it's called apostasy. But the second part, about "rejecitng the gift of God" cannot be true for anyone who HAS already believed and RECEIVED the gift of eternal life. There is no Scripture that even suggests such a thing.

Further, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And then noted that God's gifts are irrevocable. So it's not something that God takes back.

Or, the Bible would have said so. But it didn't.
 
Nathan said:
The passage in Revelation is simple and straight forward. The one in John is too.
Click to expand...
Both verses in John are simple and straight forward. In 5:24 Jesus tells us WHEN a person receives eternal life; WHEN they first believe.

Then, in 10:28, Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Eternal security could not be stated any more clearly than that.
 
FreeGrace said:
Both verses in John are simple and straight forward. In 5:24 Jesus tells us WHEN a person receives eternal life; WHEN they first believe.

Then, in 10:28, Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Eternal security could not be stated any more clearly than that.
Click to expand...

Actually here is what John 5:24 and it's context say: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

As we see by reading the context, and not taking part of a scripture, while ignoring the rest of the scripture, it of course teaches us correctly what Jesus actually said.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

Paul teaches the same exact truth, that Jesus taught.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. Paul
  • those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Paul
  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus

By printing out the scriptures and context, and comparing what Jesus said, and what Paul said, so all can examine the actual words of scripture, like good Bereans, all can study and examine whether a person's doctrine is from God or from man.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Actually here is what John 5:24 and it's context say: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

As we see by reading the context, and not taking part of a scripture, while ignoring the rest of the scripture, it of course teaches us correctly what Jesus actually said.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

Paul teaches the same exact truth, that Jesus taught.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. Paul
  • those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Paul
  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus

By printing out the scriptures and context, and comparing what Jesus said, and what Paul said, so all can examine the actual words of scripture, like good Bereans, all can study and examine whether a person's doctrine is from God or from man.


JLB
Click to expand...
Those who have done good = those who are in Christ

Those who have done evil = those who are not

Salvation is eternal and cannot be lost once gained. The whole council of God is clear on this. We have assurance. Works follows conversion because God begins a good work in the heart of a true believer. But works have nothing to do with keeping one's salvation. That nullifies the Cross of Christ. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection becomes only necessary, but not sufficient.

signed, a good Berean.
 
JLB said:
Actually here is what John 5:24 and it's context say: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.
Click to expand...
Right. Those who believe HAVE, as in POSSESS, eternal life. So, when one FIRST believes is WHEN they FIRST possess eternal life.

If that isn't correct, then proceed to explain why it isn't.

Then, Jesus promises that recipients of eternal will never perish in John 10:28. Slam dunk for eternal security.

A direct contrast of the view that a saved person can perish.

As we see by reading the context, and not taking part of a scripture, while ignoring the rest of the scripture, it of course teaches us correctly what Jesus actually said.
Click to expand...
There is nothing in the context that changes or "re-defines" exactly what He plainly said in v.24; that those who believe HAVE, as in POSSESS, eternal life.

That obviously means that WHEN one FIRST believes is WHEN they FIRST HAVE or POSSESS eternal life.

And from that BEGINNING, Jesus promises that recipients of eternal life will never perish in 10:28.

Again, a slam dunk for eternal security.

Paul teaches the same exact truth, that Jesus taught.
Click to expand...
He sure did. After describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable.

By printing out the scriptures and context, and comparing what Jesus said, and what Paul said, so all can examine the actual words of scripture, like good Bereans, all can study and examine whether a person's doctrine is from God or from man.
JLB
Click to expand...
Re; your use of Rom 2:6-8 and John 5:29 and the word "'good" for how to have eternal life, it should be obvious that the word "good" in those contexts refers to believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

If there is disagreement, then please specify exactly what is in disagreement.
 
Papa Zoom said:
Those who have done good = those who are in Christ

Those who have done evil = those who are not

Salvation is eternal and cannot be lost once gained. The whole council of God is clear on this. We have assurance. Works follows conversion because God begins a good work in the heart of a true believer. But works have nothing to do with keeping one's salvation. That nullifies the Cross of Christ. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection becomes only necessary, but not sufficient.

signed, a good Berean.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup
 
And to be clear: You can't be saved and then walk away and do evil and live in sinful rebellion. A saved person will be identified by their good works because our works, which is basically following Christ and living our lives by the power of the Spirit, demonstrate genuine faith. If you walk away after "being saved" you NEVER WERE saved to begin with. You are a phony. You never were among us. I John 2 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20 You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.…
 
JLB said:
Yes, the scripture and context you chose, to present your "argument" is correct, and any Christian should agree, since the context involves the works of the law of Moses.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:7-16

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law;

  • I suppose you are referring to Ephesians 2, where the message and context are the same:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:8-14

  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

I agree with you, that we are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace, however understanding what grace means to God, and what some understand grace to be, could be very much different in perspective.

Here is what the same Paul, teaches us about what grace is, [The Spirit of Grace; The Holy Spirit] and what grace teaches us.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

  • the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Interestingly enough, Paul continues to teach us in Ephesians and Titus, as well as all his letters, about, goods works.

  • He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
  • For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works

We are to be a people, who are set apart and righteous, who practice righteousness, as we obey the righteous leadings of His Spirit, thereby putting to death the sinful deeds of the flesh, walking in the light as He is in the light, expressing His victorious Life through our lives, bring Glory and honor to Him.



JLB
Click to expand...

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

It has been a while since we last conversed. Hope all has been and is well with you. I have a question that I would like you to answer, if you will be pleased to: What are the good works that we were created to do? Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick? If this is the work that we are to do, how is that different from those that are unbelievers that feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick? Also if the unbeliever does these thing does that mean that they are saved?

There are unbelievers that are more morally pure than some of those that claim to be believers. What does "a set apart and righteous person who practices righteousness" do that is different? Man, not God, looks to the outward appearance because we don't have the ability to look upon a man's heart. It is God that looks upon the heart and declares a person either righteous or unrighteous. Salvation is based on the heart and not on works that we see.

In John we are told that the work of God is to believe on him in whom he has sent, so the work of God that we do is belief. The life that I now live, I live by the faith of Jesus Christ and since we have died with Christ, we in the good works that God created in Christ Jesus, we don't do them, we walk in them.
 
Papa Zoom said:
And to be clear: You can't be saved and then walk away and do evil and live in sinful rebellion. A saved person will be identified by their good works because our works, which is basically following Christ and living our lives by the power of the Spirit, demonstrate genuine faith. If you walk away after "being saved" you NEVER WERE saved to begin with. You are a phony. You never were among us. I John 2 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20 You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.…
Click to expand...

dirtfarmer here

:thumb:yes:lock:woot2:sohappy:agreed
 
dirtfarmer said:
What are the good works that we were created to do?
Click to expand...

Express the righteous works of love, that we are lead to do by His Spirit within.

No matter what station of life we are in, or how young or old in the Lord, we can obey His Spirit within, and learn and grow in these working expressions of faith.

Nothing else matters but faith working by love.

Whether it is giving a cup of water to a thirsty child, or food to a hungry person, or laying hands on a sick person and seeing them healed, or casting the devil out of a tormented soul, we have all been called to do good works, that are inspired by His righteous Life within.

Look at the reason for. His decisions He makes about eternal life and eternal death, on the Day we will stand before Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
  • for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
  • I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
  • I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
  • naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB
 
JLB said:
Express the righteous works of love, that we are lead to do by His Spirit within.

No matter what station of life we are in, or how young or old in the Lord, we can obey His Spirit within, and learn and grow in these working expressions of faith.

Nothing else matters but faith working by love.

Whether it is giving a cup of water to a thirsty child, or food to a hungry person, or laying hands on a sick person and seeing them healed, or casting the devil out of a tormented soul, we have all been called to do good works, that are inspired by His righteous Life within.

Look at the reason for. His decisions He makes about eternal life and eternal death, on the Day we will stand before Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
  • for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
  • I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
  • I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
  • naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB
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hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

We have discussed Matthew 25:31-46 before. Scripture states that the believer will judge angels: 1 Corinthians 6:3, "Know ye not that we shall judge angels, how much more things that pertain to this life? In verse 31 it is stated that "all the holy angels with him" so this can't be the rapture of the body of believers. In verse 32 we have a clue to what judgment this is and it is the judgment of the nations. The nations will be judged by how they have treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation period. It is during that time period that the marriage of the bride and the bridegroom happens and the marriage supper happens in heaven.
 
Papa Zoom said:
And to be clear: You can't be saved and then walk away and do evil and live in sinful rebellion. A saved person will be identified by their good works because our works, which is basically following Christ and living our lives by the power of the Spirit, demonstrate genuine faith. If you walk away after "being saved" you NEVER WERE saved to begin with. You are a phony. You never were among us. I John 2 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20 You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.…
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I disagree. John had upwards of 7 churches and he taught DOCTRINAL TRUTH. Many believers want to have their ears tickled and never advance in Gods Plan for their life.

We can see this verse in all of our back and forth on this very forum. "They did not belong to us." Refers to believers who don't advance in Gods plan and TRUTH for their lives.

John taught eternal security and BIBLE truth. Those believers who just want to "do it their way" are never a part of Johns churches. They are not a part of believers who humble themselves and advance in Gods Plan for their lives.

John was NOT saying that they were never saved.
 
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Papa Zoom said:
Those who have done good = those who are in Christ

Those who have done evil = those who are not

Salvation is eternal and cannot be lost once gained. The whole council of God is clear on this. We have assurance. Works follows conversion because God begins a good work in the heart of a true believer. But works have nothing to do with keeping one's salvation. That nullifies the Cross of Christ. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection becomes only necessary, but not sufficient.

signed, a good Berean.
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Those who have believed .............are in Christ. Many believers do evil and YOU may never see a "good work" from them.

God looks at the heart...............man looks to the outside appearance.

Christ performs His Good work the moment we believe, we may never "see" evidence.
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

We have discussed Matthew 25:31-46 before. Scripture states that the believer will judge angels: 1 Corinthians 6:3, "Know ye not that we shall judge angels, how much more things that pertain to this life? In verse 31 it is stated that "all the holy angels with him" so this can't be the rapture of the body of believers. In verse 32 we have a clue to what judgment this is and it is the judgment of the nations. The nations will be judged by how they have treated Israel during the 7 year tribulation period. It is during that time period that the marriage of the bride and the bridegroom happens and the marriage supper happens in heaven.
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Brother this is after the resurrection and rapture, when Jesus returns, to take His place on His throne in Jerusalem.

This is the Day of Judgement.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Matthew 24:31


The entire context of Matthew 24-25, the Olivet Discourse is about this event, the Coming of the Lord, and the signs that He gives us to observe.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

Starting in Matthew 24:45 He begins to teach about what it will be like for the servants or people of His house; His kingdom, when He returns.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


This context continues right up to and through the end of the Olivet Discourse, and establishes the context for verse 31.


Look at the reason for. His decisions He makes about eternal life and eternal death, on the Day we will stand before Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
  • for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
  • I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
  • I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
  • naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

JLB
 
FreeGrace said:
Right. Those who believe HAVE, as in POSSESS, eternal life. So, when one FIRST believes is WHEN they FIRST possess eternal life.

If that isn't correct, then proceed to explain why it isn't.

Then, Jesus promises that recipients of eternal will never perish in John 10:28. Slam dunk for eternal security.

A direct contrast of the view that a saved person can perish.
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I just explained and wrote out what the scriptures with the context say:


Actually here is what John 5:24 and it's context say: he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

As we see by reading the context, and not taking part of a scripture, while ignoring the rest of the scripture, it of course teaches us correctly what Jesus actually said.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

Paul teaches the same exact truth, that Jesus taught.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. Paul
  • those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Paul
  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus

By printing out the scriptures and context, and comparing what Jesus said, and what Paul said, so all can examine the actual words of scripture, like good Bereans, all can study and examine whether a person's doctrine is from God or from man.

Both Jesus and Paul Teach the exact same thing.




JLB
 
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