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I've been following this and find it really interesting. Someone had something about if the word was water or not, so I did a little checking and found a scripture that may refer to this. It's in Ephesians 5:26

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,.../

I went to the Greek for water and word and found that the water is water, and the word...may or may not be the scriptures, but words as an utterance. So I don't know if this helps, but it is in there. Not about baptism but does say that the word washes or cleanses us, probably our heart I would think.
 
If Christians would read this verse, it would help some of them who are confused.
2nd Corin 12:12

Did you know that there are actually Christians who endlessly talk about "the baptism of the Spirit, "tongues as the sign of the baptism", and who have not noticed that all Faith Healers stay out of hospitals......... and these very same seekers of the gifts, who get saved and re-saved every sunday, have never lead anyone to Jesus The Christ their whole lives?
Why is that?
Yet they can talk about "the Holy Spirit" and "the infilling" till the sky cracks and the earth shakes.

And, im a person who believes in prosperity for the believer, and the gift of healing, and i absolutely know that your words are seeds that curse or bless........YET, i can smell the stink of the fakirs and the self righteous, every time they start blathering about the "gifts".
Keep in mind that the "spiritual gifts" are located in Corinthians........and these 2 epistles are written to people who didnt even know that Christ was IN THEM.
So, these are babies.......baby Christians....... Strife filled do nothings......and when you find a baby, you'll find a baby wanting a gift., as that is what a baby wants.
Babies want gifts, and baby Christians worry about everything but the main thing.
The main thing, is ......holy living, and soul winning.
Nothing else even comes close.
LISTEN !!
You are going to die.
You are going to meet Jesus.
He is not going to be impressed with your theology or your position in some sort of "Christian work- ministry".....but rather, He is going to ask you....."you had a lot of years down there...How many SOULS did you bring to ME".
You might want to think about that, before ............................
 
ezra said:
i support baptism provided 2 things are not connected to it . 1. to be baptized saves you. 2. re baptizing just to join another church ,,baptism follows salvation..i talked with a lady today said her former pastor called her 2 kids up .asking them if they wanted to be saved.they said yes and was baptized ..they only got wet .the one has denounced Christ and no claims to be pagan
Click to expand...
I agree with you on this. The act of baptizing does not do the saving of a soul. and once baptized no need to do it every time you move to a new place.
 
Edward said:
I've been following this and find it really interesting. Someone had something about if the word was water or not, so I did a little checking and found a scripture that may refer to this. It's in Ephesians 5:26

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,.../

I went to the Greek for water and word and found that the water is water, and the word...may or may not be the scriptures, but words as an utterance. So I don't know if this helps, but it is in there. Not about baptism but does say that the word washes or cleanses us, probably our heart I would think.
Click to expand...
the water is symbolic of the word imo call it ezra 3:16
 
ezra said:
the water is symbolic of the word imo call it ezra 3:16
Click to expand...
You have to ignore a lot of scripture to come to that conclusion.
I cannot imagine why you would do that.

Jesus baptized by John
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;...
Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Phillip on the road to Gaza
Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Peter at the house of Cornelius
Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Other references to baptism in water
Jhn 3:23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Eph 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

It is astonishing to me that so many people will go to such great lengths to avoid what so many scriptures clearly and specifically state in order to cling to some vapid notion. I don't get it.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. Based on the scriptures, it is inconceivable that He meant anything other than that they be baptized in water as He, Himself, was baptized in water.

Paul explains exactly what baptism is about at Romans 6:3-4.
V.3: all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death
V.4a: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death
V.4b: as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

See also:
Tit 3:4-5 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Regeneration = being born again
Through the washing of water = baptism in water
Renewing of the Holy Spirit = Baptism in the Spirit

1Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Here Peter echoes Paul connecting baptism and resurrection to new life.
 
ezra said:
Baptism follows salvation the water can represent the word my self i have read and heard so much about signs solar eclipse will unleash judgment..Jesus said no sign would be given ---
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed.
they missed it and many others are missing it .other than that i have no dog in this discussion
Click to expand...

ezra,

I agree with you that baptism follows salvation.

This is made especially clear in Matt 28:18-20 (NIV):

Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’​

I don't think the place of baptism in Christianity could be clearer than this. The place of baptism is in making disciples of all nations. Discipleship happens AFTER salvation when new converts are to be taught to obey everything Jesus commanded. All of this is post-salvation.

Oz
 
Jim Parker said:
Phillip on the road to Gaza
Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Click to expand...

Jim,

You want these 3 verses to confirm baptismal regeneration. Let's look at what Acts 8:36-38 (ESV) teaches:
  • Philip told the eunuch the good news about Jesus (v. 35);
  • They were travelling along the road and the eunuch asked the question of Philip: What stands in the way of being baptised?
  • Philip's reply was NOT, 'As I dip you under the water of baptism, you must believe at the same time. Baptism and believing must happen together for you to be saved'. In fact in many modern translations, verse 37 is excluded. The ESV gives this footnote to explain the absence of v. 37: 'Some manuscripts add all or most of verse 37: And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Therefore, even though this verse didn't make it to the UBS / Nestle-Aland Greek texts, it was a teaching that was in the early church following the 12 Apostles. That teaching was that nothing will hinder the eunuch from being baptised if he believed with all his heart. The believing had the content that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Verse 37 is in the Old Latin translations prior to Jerome's Latin Vulgate in the late 4th century. However, it is not included in the Latin Vulgate. In English, v. 37 is included in the NASB, NKJV, and the Douay-Rheims (1899 edn).
  • It seems as though v. 37 was added to reject baptismal regeneration and that false teaching appeared early in the development of the church (hence its inclusion in Mark 16:15). If we add v. 37, it clarifies that the condition for baptism to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ first before baptism takes place, which is needed in discipleship, but not for salvation.
Oz
 
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I don't think regeneration happens at being born again, but rather in a process afterwards. One that takes a bit of time and also requires our participation by studying to show ourselves approved, praying for help and walking in the promise of the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ (in short, obeying).
 
Well.

If I watch TV, my only hope for taking medical poison is a portion of money set aside by drug manufacturers.

If I read about the lady with the issue of blood, she recovered.

Which am I going to pray for? Which will I get?

Which good news will I seek? The gospel of modern lawyers, or the gospel of what Jesus did.

If your love one died as a result of a procedure, do you want financial compensation, or what?

Rednecks get to thinking
eddif
 
Jim Parker said:
You have to ignore a lot of scripture to come to that conclusion.
I cannot imagine why you would do that.

Jesus baptized by John
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;...
Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Phillip on the road to Gaza
Acts 8:36-38 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Peter at the house of Cornelius
Acts 10: 47-48 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Other references to baptism in water
Jhn 3:23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Eph 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

It is astonishing to me that so many people will go to such great lengths to avoid what so many scriptures clearly and specifically state in order to cling to some vapid notion. I don't get it.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized. Based on the scriptures, it is inconceivable that He meant anything other than that they be baptized in water as He, Himself, was baptized in water.

Paul explains exactly what baptism is about at Romans 6:3-4.
V.3: all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death
V.4a: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death
V.4b: as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

See also:
Tit 3:4-5 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Regeneration = being born again
Through the washing of water = baptism in water
Renewing of the Holy Spirit = Baptism in the Spirit

1Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Here Peter echoes Paul connecting baptism and resurrection to new life.
Click to expand...
did Jesus need regeneration when he was baptized ? the thief on the cross was not baptized .this is what is important ( we too might walk in newness of life.) our walk
 
dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 12:13, " For by Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jewa or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

I don't see any water mentioned in this verse, therefore it is my belief that water baptism is a man made doctrine to make our flesh think that we have a role in our salvation.
 
OzSpen said:
the condition for baptism to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ first before baptism takes place, which is needed in discipleship, but not for salvation.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
No one would be allowed to be baptized who did not believe.
As far as "not for salvation:, it is my opinion that being as obedient as possible (the thief on the cross couldn't obey anything) to the commands of the LORD is necessary for salvation.

So, if someone were to say, "I firmly believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died for my sins but I refuse to be baptized.", then that hypothetical person would not be saved. He would be like the demons who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the most high, but refuse to submit to His lordship.
That teaching was that nothing will hinder the eunuch from being baptised if he believed with all his heart. The believing had the content that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Verse 37 is in the Old Latin translations prior to Jerome's Latin Vulgate in the late 4th century. However, it is not included in the Latin Vulgate. In English, v. 37 is included in the NASB, NKJV, and the Douay-Rheims (1899 edn).
Click to expand...

Here's an historical citation from before the Old Latin translation which demonstrates what the Church taught having received the teaching from the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; …… The illuminand is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.

jim
 
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ezra said:
did Jesus need regeneration when he was baptized ? the thief on the cross was not baptized .
Click to expand...
(1) did Jesus need regeneration
Of course not; but He set the standard for all believers
And Jesus COMMANDED that YOU be baptized if you intend to be His disciple. (mat 28:19)
(2) It was impossible for the thief on the cross to be baptized. So if anyone confesses Jesus as Lord while being nailed to a cross and doomed to die in a very short time, (or, perhaps about to be beheaded by some ISIS allah-demon worshiper) then it would not be necessary to be baptized.
God is not some kind of jerk that condemns people because they did not do what was impossible.
For the vast majority of believers, water baptism IS possible and commanded by Jesus.
So, if anyone wants to be be saved and have Jesus as his LORD then he is required to obey Jesus the LORD.
Jesus your LORD said for YOU to get baptized (in water.)
this is what is important ( we too might walk in newness of life.) our walk
Click to expand...
Your walk, if you do not in faith obey the LORD's commands, is salvation by works and will not save you.
And you cannot "walk in newness of life" unless you have also been "buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Ro 6:4)
I do not understand why do you insist on resisting that command of God, the LORD Jesus. :confused
 
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Jim Parker said:
So, if someone were to say, "I firmly believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died for my sins but I refuse to be baptized.", then that hypothetical person would not be saved.

jim
Click to expand...


Just in case anyone is still confused by legalists regarding the fact that water has NO PART in salvation, just remember the God shed his Blood.
= THERE is your salvation being accomplished FOR YOU.
No Water Required to achieve what Jesus's blood has attained and maintains.
You're told to believe....... As God's part has already been accomplished on the Cross.
The rest is LITERAL APPLICATION, which is known as REDEMPTION.
This is where God Saves you, and you become Born Again.
No water required.
What happens then?
What happens next?
Thats up to you.
You can be a good disciple and be baptized in water, live a Holy life, and do your best everyday to be available to be used by God.
Or, .... ....whatever you decide.
But whatever you choose, you are "in Christ" and this can't be undone.
And the reason it can't be undone, is because you cant undo the application of God's grace as He provided it.
He designed it that way.
Its fool proof.
He designed it so that you have no part in it, get no credit for it, and can't change the fact of it once you are born again INTO His family, and even your 2nd birth is completed by Him so that you cant mess this up......later on.
The only thing that you can do after you are saved is to live your life out according to the principals He has established through Paul and the New Testament with God's help, or not.
If you choose the "or not" path, after you are saved, then evil will pursue you and more then likely you'll suffer on this earth more then you would have suffered, had you never been born again.
But after you die, you wont meet God as your Judge, as He has already Judged His Son for you sins.
You will still meet Him as your heavenly Father and you'll still meet Jesus as your savior and your Lord, as He is Lord of ALL, even over those who would not accept it before or after they are saved.
 
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I Corinthians 10:1 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

One door.

Side 1. Over door
(Whosoever will may come)

Side 2. Over same door (other side)
(Saved from the foundation of the earth)

A side one person should be able to see the other sign and understand the two view points.

A side two person should be able to see the other sign and understand the two view points.

Paul's calling was foreknown by God (spiritually), but approached with the natural.

God's thoughts are beyond Mississippi rednecks.

eddif
 
Jim Parker said:
Your walk, if you do not in faith obey the LORD's commands, is salvation by works and will not save you.
And you cannot "walk in newness of life" unless you have also been "buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Ro 6:4)
I do not understand why do you insist on resisting that command of God, the LORD Jesus.
Click to expand...
i walk in the newness of life BY HIS SPIRIT ZECHARIAH 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, “This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ saith the Lord of hosts. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE POWER THAT REGENERATES US not water i have been baptized as a answering of a good conscience..no amount of water ever saved ever cleaned ....I DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU DOCTRINE NOR DO I ... i am still saved sanctified and justified the Blood of Christ paid my debt cleaned my soul i am redeemed by the Blood of the lamb im saved and i know that i am and thats good enough for me i have a know so salvation not by any works i have done past present future i am a W.I.P AND HE IS STILL WORKING ON ME.HE IS THE POTTER AND I AM THE CLAY and yes at times i have to go to the potters wheel and be renewed ..if you can,t accept that i am sorry but i know that i know beyond any shadow of doubt.. where i stand have a good evening or day when ever you read this..
 
Kidron said:
Just in case anyone is still confused by legalists regarding the fact that water has NO PART in salvation, just remember the God shed his Blood.
= THERE is your salvation being accomplished FOR YOU.
No Water Required to achieve what Jesus's blood has attained and maintains.
You're told to believe....... As God's part has already been accomplished on the Cross.
The rest is LITERAL APPLICATION, which is known as REDEMPTION.
This is where God Saves you, and you become Born Again.
No water required.
What happens then?
What happens next?
Thats up to you.
You can be a good disciple and be baptized in water, live a Holy life, and do your best everyday to be available to be used by God.
Or, .... ....whatever you decide.
But whatever you choose, you are "in Christ" and this can't be undone.
And the reason it can't be undone, is because you cant undo the application of God's grace as He provided it.
He designed it that way.
Its fool proof.
He designed it so that you have no part in it, get no credit for it, and can't change the fact of it once you are born again INTO His family, and even your 2nd birth is completed by Him so that you cant mess this up......later on.
The only thing that you can do after you are saved is to live your life out according to the principals He has established through Paul and the New Testament with God's help, or not.
If you choose the "or not" path, after you are saved, then evil will pursue you and more then likely you'll suffer on this earth more then you would have suffered, had you never been born again.
But after you die, you wont meet God as your Judge, as He has already Judged His Son for you sins.
You will still meet Him as your heavenly Father and you'll still meet Jesus as your savior and your Lord, as He is Lord of ALL, even over those who would not accept it before or after they are saved.
Click to expand...
:amen:agreed:goodpost:cross
 
Acts 9:15 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Sounds like God has a plan for Paul. I have no idea why he wants Ananias to use physical hands to accomplish spiritual work in Paul.

Acts 9:16 KJV
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Spiritual revelation by dreams at start (reverting to physical to accomplish?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, evenJesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Physical to accomplish spiritual?

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

After a physical laying on of hands a spiritual baptism seems to have occurred, and then turned right around and put a physical baptism on him on him as a sign?

God is God and if he wishes to send spiritual dreams one minute, and require a physical act another, that is ok with me.

Do I understand totally?
No.
Will I one day?
I Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

There comes a day when understanding reaches a new level, but right now I am left with the calling of Paul to study. Spiritual dreams then physical actions proceeding spiritual realities.

Adam was a dresser of a physical garden.
Paul was to take care of the body of Christ and witness before kings? Ok I understand through a glass darkly, but I embrace those who see spiritual first -and- I embrace those who see the physical first. Right now I am a little perplexed while existing in my body of death (pre resurrection), but one day I will see and get it better.

I am not lukewarm about all this, I passionately desire the full knowledge.

Rednevks just sit on the porch and wait at times.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
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