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Douglas Summers

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There is no where in Scripture where natural birth is refereed to as being born of water. The Scripture phrase is one phrase...not two (like bread and butter or hot and cold or salt and pepper). You must be born of water and Spirit. (Ezek. 36:25-27) is a good example,he says, I will sprinkle them with clean water.........and put a new Spirit....He also says, My Spirit in you. It is one process. Cleansing with the word of God and being born again of the Spirit. You can not put new wine in an old wine skin. It must be a new wine skin. (1 Cor. 6:10-11) is another one, You were washed.....you were cleansed.....of the old self (John 15:3) we are washed or cleansed by the word before we can receive the Holy Spirit. (John 13:10) Christ tells the disciples they are already clean (by the word).

The body must be cleansed by the water of the word before any resident of the Holy Ghost.
 
Your quote....
Douglas Summers said:
There is no where in Scripture where natural birth is refereed to as being born of water.
Click to expand...

Is a popular understanding of lots of folks. I have tossed the Blood & water around in my mind on many occasions. I lean towards the water & Blood to mean water representing the human birth and the Blood representing the Divine birth. The testimony of Christ's crucifixion proves it in my mind....John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."
 
Chopper said:
.John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water
Click to expand...
Hi Chopper, I do not see how that Scripture relates to John 3:5. I can give you more proof Scriptures to prove it than you can to prove your belief. (Ezek. 36:25-27) alone should be enough. I do not teach on my own understanding, but what I hear from the Spirit. I received the Spirit just like Christ said it would come.(John 3:8). I know the difference between my own thoughts and being a vessel for the Spirit to manifest itself, thou I have grieved it and hindered it many times before maturing. We will all have to answer for what we do whether good or bad. There is a joy in knowing the Truth and that the Spirit confirms with the fathers grace as He uses us with clear understanding of what we are to say. It is not I, but Christ in me. many will quote that Scripture void of the fruits....but I claim it as all born again believers do.

Christ in us
Douglas Summers
 
Douglas Summers said:
There is no where in Scripture where natural birth is refereed to as being born of water. The Scripture phrase is one phrase...not two (like bread and butter or hot and cold or salt and pepper).
Click to expand...

You answer your own question in the verse you quote (John 3:5-6).
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verse 6 gives you the answer!!!
 
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Good morning Douglas. Your interpretation is the safest and most Theologians believe it as you have stated. Although you didn't mention water baptism, that is what most theologians believe the water represents.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Perhaps the KJV should have used the word baptism, instead of water. It would be read like this....Except a man be born of (thru) baptism and of the Spirit..............

That poses a problem doesn't it? All Christians who have not been baptized, can't enter the Kingdom. That's the reason I have problems understanding what the water is all about. Hmm. :thinking

What do you think?

So, what do you believe the word "water" means?
 
Douglas Summers said:
The body must be cleansed by the water of the word before any resident of the Holy Ghost.
Click to expand...
I sometimes hesitate to enter discussions of doctrine due to their endless schisms created, but your thought here is close enough to mine I will paste scripture; take it or leave it. :)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify (To become holy, or set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water (Baptism) by the word,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration (Born again), and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Blessings in Christ Jesus. :wave2
 
A suggestion.
Breaking water of the placenta refers to birthing.
Willful submergence in water deeply triggers re-emergence of where we once were, in the placenta,. Now to be reborn again, but in Spirit this time.
 
Soul man said:
You answer your own question in the verse you quote (John 3:5-6).
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verse 6 gives you the answer!!!
Click to expand...
Not so, That which is born of flesh is flesh,But that which is born again is born by water and Spirit. A man can not be born again without repentance. A man can not repent unless he is washed with clean water ( the word of God).(John 15:3) You do not put new wine in old wine skins. The doctrine of water being the birth of an infant is a baptist doctrine, even as the C of C believes it means water baptism. That is not what God teaches (Ezek. 36:25-27). A man has to hear the word first then he has to react to the calling. Hearing or being washed clean by the word of God is not salvation, but gives you the knowledge of or (promises of God). Some after hearing or being washed clean, reject the truth and go back to the mud like a washed pig. They would have been better off, having not known the truth, then knowing it and returning to their former corruption. (2 Pet. 2:15-22) I have it on a higher teacher than man.
 
Chopper said:
Good morning Douglas. Your interpretation is the safest and most Theologians believe it as you have stated. Although you didn't mention water baptism, that is what most theologians believe the water represents.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Perhaps the KJV should have used the word baptism, instead of water. It would be read like this....Except a man be born of (thru) baptism and of the Spirit..............

That poses a problem doesn't it? All Christians who have not been baptized, can't enter the Kingdom. That's the reason I have problems understanding what the water is all about. Hmm. :thinking
Hi Chopper, I believe what the Spirit teaches, that rebirth comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word of God washes all the filth that this age is governed under, out of the souls of men. Rebirth is because of the necessity of the flesh that cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. However gifted, educated, refined, and religious a man is, he cannot obey, understand or please God......nor does he want to. He is totally blind to Spiritual truth and cannot enter because he is corrupt and disobedient to the will of God.
What do you think?
Quit thinking and ask the Father.
So, what do you believe the word "water" means?
Click to expand...
To wash, cleanse or purify. Never take my word alone, always seek the fellowship of the father. He will not mislead you. Please expand to finish reading.
 
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Douglas Summers said:
The doctrine of water being the birth of an infant is a baptist doctrine, even as the C of C believes it means water baptism. .
Click to expand...

-
Maybe there is a clear understanding of "water", as related to baptism, and spiritual baptism, ...that we need to grab for the sake of clarity.
So.....
When we are talking about this, there is a CONTEXT that has to be applied, or else, this topic becomes a theological free for all.
What is the context?
The context is Jesus talking to Nicodemus , and when we look at that conversation, then we are able to find the simple facts.
Dont go anywhere else in the bible trying to get the revelation about "baptism", as you find the facts coming out of the mouth of Jesus as they are being revealed to Nicodemus.... and this becomes the bible revealing them to you.
The facts are...
Jesus understood that Nicodemus could not grasp "spiritual rebirth", and that is why when Nicodemus said.."can i reenter the womb of my mother , etc"... = Did you notice that what Jesus did, is not correct him....but rather he only offered a simple distinction between natural child birth, and spiritual rebirth.
Thats all he did, and THAT is the context of this issue, that has to be applied, or the entire conversation and theology regarding water, and baptism, goes off the chain and into the dark.
Understand.....There IS NO 3rd option, and Jesus is not talking about being "washed by the water of the word"....so, no need to try to drag that verse in out of context, when the simple answer is found when you just simply ready HOW Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus, the distinctions between the 2 births.
One is water, the earth birth.
One is spirit, the born again birth.
Thats it.
Game over.
Get get some chips and watch "Murder she wrote, or find a UFC fight"...whatever.
You dont have to keep digging this up to try to confuse yourself, anymore, as its really too simple to miss it, and stay confounded, confused, and theologically inaccurate.
See, Thats how simple this is, but people are mislead by commentaries and heretics, when all they have to do is just read this conversation.
Nothing difficult about it.
Jesus is simply making a distinction between natural childbirth, where the water breaks, and the baby is born, with.....the spiritual application teaching regarding = being born again by and in , the Spirit.
Jesus is discussing and explaining 2 births, by making a distinction between natural childbirth, and the spiritual rebirth. (born again).
So, when you see teachers, churches, trying to recreate some "water to be saved" theology, then you need to realize they are off the mark, and more then likely, not even saved.
If that is your church, then find another one.
Life is too short to live in a spiritual ditch., especially when you dont have to.
 
Torah---The Law
Tohorah--- ceremonial clean

IOW add a little breath/Spirit to the Law and you will be clean

Yam- water
Mayim- waters
Hashamayim--waters of waters
Hashamayim, Hashamayim.....highest heaven's where God lives.

That should give you the Hebrew lesson for today.
 
Kidron said:
-
Maybe there is a clear understanding of "water", as related to baptism, and spiritual baptism, ...that we need to grab for the sake of clarity.
So.....
When we are talking about this, there is a CONTEXT that has to be applied, or else, this topic becomes a theological free for all.
What is the context?
The context is Jesus talking to Nicodemus , and when we look at that conversation, then we are able to find the simple facts.
Dont go anywhere else in the bible trying to get the revelation about "baptism", as you find the facts coming out of the mouth of Jesus as they are being revealed to Nicodemus.... and this becomes the bible revealing them to you.
The facts are...
Jesus understood that Nicodemus could not grasp "spiritual rebirth", and that is why when Nicodemus said.."can i reenter the womb of my mother , etc"... = Did you notice that what Jesus did, is not correct him....but rather he only offered a simple distinction between natural child birth, and spiritual rebirth.
Thats all he did, and THAT is the context of this issue, that has to be applied, or the entire conversation and theology regarding water, and baptism, goes off the chain and into the dark.
Understand.....There IS NO 3rd option, and Jesus is not talking about being "washed by the water of the word"....so, no need to try to drag that verse in out of context, when the simple answer is found when you just simply ready HOW Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus, the distinctions between the 2 births.
One is water, the earth birth.
One is spirit, the born again birth.
Thats it.
Game over.
Get get some chips and watch "Murder she wrote, or find a UFC fight"...whatever.
You dont have to keep digging this up to try to confuse yourself, anymore, as its really too simple to miss it, and stay confounded, confused, and theologically inaccurate.
See, Thats how simple this is, but people are mislead by commentaries and heretics, when all they have to do is just read this conversation.
Nothing difficult about it.
Jesus is simply making a distinction between natural childbirth, Of course He is. where the water breaks, and the baby is born,That is true, but that is not the application here. with .....the spiritual application teaching regarding = being born again by and in , the Spirit.
Jesus is discussing and explaining 2 births, by making a distinction between natural childbirth, and the spiritual rebirth. (born again). Born of water and Spirit is one event. You can not be born of Spirit unless you are washed with the word of God.. Seek the Father and ask Him, but there is no fellowship unless you are born again. If that makes you angry that I say,"you must be born again," Then there is something wrong, because, you must be born again. The Father leaves nothing to chance or self will. Reading the Scripture and trying to act out what you think they say is not being saved. A man can be moral, well educated,sincere, humble and even charitable, and would not hurt a fly, but he is bound for hell unless he calls upon the name of the Lord.
So, when you see teachers, churches, trying to recreate some "water to be saved" theology, then you need to realize they are off the mark, and more then likely, not even saved.
If that is your church, then find another one.
Life is too short to live in a spiritual ditch., especially when you dont have to.
Click to expand...
Kidron, I did not get my understanding from men. I have no church like you might have nor a human logic to Spiritual teachings. Christ is the Church and we are his body....born again believers are connected to Him. Besides, I do not teach water to be saved! If you have not been regenerated, you have no part with Christ (Rom. 8:5-10). Please expand above to finish reading post.
 
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Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. what is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for the remission of sin.

What about the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not Spiritually born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
 
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