Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

godsquadgeek said:

many times in the bible belief is synonymous with faith. romans 10:9 mention believing and being saved, as the only requirement for salvation. Yet elsewhere we know this believe is actually faith. Ephesians 2:8. So it contradicts and unless they have different methods of salvation, we must look at faith and belief as being synonymous to avoid contradiction in thought, and to use proper hermeneutics.

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You're partially correct. Faith and belief are not synonymous however I do agree that when one considers the whole of Scripture, both are in the path to salvation. You referenced John 3:16 as the proof text for faith being required for salvation but John 3:16 does not speak of faith. Then you indicated that repentance was required for salvation and I agree but John 3:16 says nothing about repentance. I propose that you referenced the wrong verse or maybe didn't reference enough Scripture to truly support what you were trying to say.

Faith is a gift from God.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 NKJV

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8 NKJV

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2 NKJV

Believing is our reaction to the faith we have received.
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29 NKJV

We must do the believing.
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1 NKJV

How might we be saved? By believing. That's an action on our part.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16 NKJV

Do you know where Scripture defines belief or believing as a gift from God or something that God inspires us to do outside of ourselves? I haven't found any yet.

WIP said:

You're partially correct. Faith and belief are not synonymous however I do agree that when one considers the whole of Scripture, both are in the path to salvation. You referenced John 3:16 as the proof text for faith being required for salvation but John 3:16 does not speak of faith. Then you indicated that repentance was required for salvation and I agree but John 3:16 says nothing about repentance. I propose that you referenced the wrong verse or maybe didn't reference enough Scripture to truly support what you were trying to say.

Faith is a gift from God.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 NKJV

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God... Ephesians 2:8 NKJV

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2 NKJV

Believing is our reaction to the faith we have received.
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29 NKJV

We must do the believing.
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1 NKJV

How might we be saved? By believing. That's an action on our part.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16 NKJV

Do you know where Scripture defines belief or believing as a gift from God or something that God inspires us to do outside of ourselves? I haven't found any yet.

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I understand that faith is a gift, but on the one hand faith involves repenting, and it is our responsibility to repent, so God does his part in salvation, which is convince us of his Gospel through his spirit, while we take that to heart and render our lives worthy of the gift through repentance. Matt 10:37, 22:8 God will not repent for us.

godsquadgeek said:

I understand that faith is a gift,

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this is just a random question to any before we get saved does God have to give us the faith first in order to be saved.. ???? in calvinism you must be given the faith then regenerated then saved but not before your chosen

ezra said:

this is just a random question to any before we get saved does God have to give us the faith first in order to be saved.. ???? in calvinism you must be given the faith then regenerated then saved but not before your chosen

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I believe God creates faith building situations in the lives of the elect that are not there in the lives of the non elect. But it's still our responsibility to accept that gift of faith.

ezra said:

why not use them every service after all they are for the edifying of the body

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tongues for one, is for the non believer. 1 Cor 14:22 But also edifies the believer. 1 Cor 14:4. But all things should be done in decency and in order. 1 Cor 14:40. IF God was speaking through all these different prophecies, there would be confusion. During the service the annointing should be on the preacher alone.

godsquadgeek said:

tongues for one, is for the non believer. 1 Cor 14:22 But also edifies the believer. 1 Cor 14:4. But all things should be done in decency and in order. 1 Cor 14:40. IF God was speaking through all these different prophecies, there would be confusion. During the service the annointing should be on the preacher alone.

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" During the service the anointing should be on the preacher alone " not necessarily the anointing is not for the preacher only . yes i would certainly hope the preacher would be 1 john 2
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth

But you have an anointing 21 I have not written to you because you don’t know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth.
(HCSB) the congregation should be also.... while to some degree i understand what your saying . imo every service should be conducted under the anointing ..the presence of the Holy Spirit yes i have been in services where tongues was used . i can honestly say one i felt the presence of the Lord

IF God was speaking through all these different prophecies, there would be confusion

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when you have several speaking tongues confusion is exactly what you
have . no i am not anti Pentecostal the Pentecostals think the baptist are dead and the baptist think Pentecostals are nuts..sad to say many in reality do believe this . i use this a lot to bring out a point .. i done been accused of being hateful in another post because i totaly disagreed with a certain denom

godsquadgeek said:

I believe God creates faith building situations in the lives of the elect that are not there in the lives of the non elect. But it's still our responsibility to accept that gift of faith.

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i can agree with that maybe not in them exact words . in the carm forum i have often asked the calvinist how they knew they was chosen to be the elect . they never gave a straight up answer

ezra said:

i can agree with that maybe not in them exact words . in the carm forum i have often asked the calvinist how they knew they was chosen to be the elect . they never gave a straight up answer

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we are elect based on foreknowledge, God can foresee how we will perform toward the Gospel message from eternity past, and due to romans 8:29, it says "whom he foreknew them He also predestined". So God sees the time line of our life like a helecopter above a parade, and knows what floats are coming around the corner before they get there. He chooses them that will choose Him. But also chooses based on His sovereignty, and that part I dont' grasp. Eph 1:5

ezra said:

" During the service the anointing should be on the preacher alone " not necessarily the anointing is not for the preacher only . yes i would certainly hope the preacher would be 1 john 2
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth

But you have an anointing 21 I have not written to you because you don’t know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth.
(HCSB) the congregation should be also.... while to some degree i understand what your saying . imo every service should be conducted under the anointing ..the presence of the Holy Spirit yes i have been in services where tongues was used . i can honestly say one i felt the presence of the Lord
when you have several speaking tongues confusion is exactly what you
have . no i am not anti Pentecostal the Pentecostals think the baptist are dead and the baptist think Pentecostals are nuts..sad to say many in reality do believe this . i use this a lot to bring out a point .. i done been accused of being hateful in another post because i totaly disagreed with a certain denom

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we don't do that, we let one person speak at a time, and have special services just for the gifts of the spirit, they are called afterglows.

godsquadgeek said:

we don't do that, we let one person speak at a time, and have special services just for the gifts of the spirit, they are called afterglows.

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interesting

godsquadgeek said:

we are elect based on foreknowledge, God can foresee how we will perform toward the Gospel message from eternity past, and due to romans 8:29, it says "whom he foreknew them He also predestined". So God sees the time line of our life like a helecopter above a parade, and knows what floats are coming around the corner before they get there. He chooses them that will choose Him. But also chooses based on His sovereignty, and that part I dont' grasp. Eph 1:5

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but this would make a calvinist cross eyed

ezra said:

but this would make a calvinist cross eyed

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yeah, I am a converted calvinist. Now I am a calminiast. A calvinist-arminiast. Both extremes have their valid points, but neither extreme has all the facts.

ezra said:

interesting

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but I know what you mean, many pentecostal churches let tongues run rampant, and everyone everywhere is excersizing their gift, no doubt to much confusion. But I like the verse that states, "let all things be done decently and in order" 1 Cor 14:40

godsquadgeek said:

yeah, I am a converted calvinist. Now I am a calminiast. A calvinist-arminiast. Both extremes have their valid points, but neither extreme has all the facts.

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wow use to be calvinist ? i got saved before i knew any hing about the other

godsquadgeek said:

but I know what you mean, many pentecostal churches let tongues run rampant, and everyone everywhere is excersizing their gift, no doubt to much confusion. But I like the verse that states, "let all things be done decently and in order" 1 Cor 14:40

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i seen some pretty out of control services

ezra said:

i seen some pretty out of control services

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me too

dirtfarmer said:

I believe that all scripture is God breathed, but you cannot apply all scripture to the Church.

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Well. Let me go a couple of places.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:16 KJV
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Example
I Timothy 5:17 KJV
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Commandments are contained in ordinances.

We could look at oxen as oxen and be happy leaving the law alone. In this case we learn that the law has hidden in it great treasures for Jew and Gentile alike.
I Corinthians 9:8 KJV
Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

The law does use symbolism, types, shadows, etc.
The day of pentecost gave the power to take care of explaining all this.

Ox equals church worker.

Hidden revealed.

Rednecks work with bovines. LOL
eddif

I may have missed some one else saying this.

1. If you were around people only talking of sin and repentance, you might just repent.

2. John the Baptist said repent, and believe in the one who comes after me (who will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire)

3. If you heard it all you might get the Holy Spirit when you believed.

4. You heard it all and were warned about them tongue talkers. What would you get.

5. Some other set up.
......
It took me 14 years to get through a few steps. Others take 4 seconds to get more than many others have.

Some only heard the first sermon of John. What did they get?

I think I hear someone is knocking at the neighbors door. LOL

Redneck
eddif

eddif said:

Well. Let me go a couple of places.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:16 KJV
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Example
I Timothy 5:17 KJV
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Commandments are contained in ordinances.

We could look at oxen as oxen and be happy leaving the law alone. In this case we learn that the law has hidden in it great treasures for Jew and Gentile alike.
I Corinthians 9:8 KJV
Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

The law does use symbolism, types, shadows, etc.
The day of pentecost gave the power to take care of explaining all this.

Ox equals church worker.

Hidden revealed.

Rednecks work with bovines. LOL
eddif

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hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

Be careful not to confuse "the house of Israel" with the Church. The house of Israel was given laws that pertained to cleanliness, clean and unclean meats, keeping of feast, holy days, and Sabbaths. Jeremiah 31:33 states that it was with the house of Israel that the "covenant" will be made with.

The Church is cleansed by the blood of Christ, not by keeping holy days, feasts, or Sabbaths.

dirtfarmer said:

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

Be careful not to confuse "the house of Israel" with the Church. The house of Israel was given laws that pertained to cleanliness, clean and unclean meats, keeping of feast, holy days, and Sabbaths. Jeremiah 31:33 states that it was with the house of Israel that the "covenant" will be made with.

The Church is cleansed by the blood of Christ, not by keeping holy days, feasts, or Sabbaths.

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I don't think I forgot Israel at all.

Israel had to learn the symbolism (shadows, types just as well as the Gentiles). The Jewish (insert your own favorite descriptive terms) happened to understand first at the day of Pentecost as they described / heard the mighty works of God :
Acts 2:11 KJV
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These are the grieving Jews(over the sins of Israel) sent into foreign lands before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Then
The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit the same way.
Acts 10:27 KJV
And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
Acts 10:35 KJV
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Skipping ahead to shorten post but read of Jesus)

Acts 10:44 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

See what Peter said.....

The Jews at Pentecost and the Gentiles at Cornelius's house believed in Jesus, and spoke of the mighty works of God. One New Man (Jew and Gentile alike)

The Jews / Israel with their background believed and received
And
The Gentiles / pagans with their background believed and received.

I can / do not - require tongues, but they are mentioned. More could be said.

Mississippi redneck headed for a bait of water,
eddif