Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
- Start date
Did you read all of the chapter?
1 Corinthians 13 is speaking of the gifts and after we rejoin with the Father in Heaven.
8. Love never fails [it never fades nor ends]. But as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for the gift of special knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [for our knowledge is fragmentary and incomplete]. 10 But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away.
Jim Parker
Member
Togues will cease when that which is perfect comes.
1Co 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
What is "that which is perfect"?
Words written on a page?
No.
That which is perfect and which is to come is the Kingdom of God in fullness.
That will happen at the end of this age and with the 2nd coming of Christ.
That's how I see it.
iakov the fool
jasonc
Member
Agree,as we won't do need healing, miracles, and the other gifts as well by then.
Jim Parker
Member
When the "kingdom comes", all the problems of the fall will no longer exist.
What verse are you speaking of? What verse says," After we rejoin with the Father in heaven?"
"Rejoin" is a curious word. What do you mean by, "rejoin with the Father in heaven?"
And Yes, I can totally assure you that Freegrace read all the chapter........He is our resident freak that knows more bible doctrine than most 50 year pastors.
What prophecies fail when the Kingdom of God comes in fullness?
1Co 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:10 does not say, "when we rejoin with the Father."
What do you mean by 'rejoin?'
Jim Parker
Member
There will be no need for any of the gifts of the Spirit when all believers are joined to Christ in the Kingdom.
Eph 4:11-16 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
All of those objectives will be completely achieved in the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
After the resurrection, at the coming of the kingdom, we will no longer be in the growth mode; we will have been made perfect.
There will be no need for the gifts of the Spirit for the Church to carry out its work on the earth because all of creation will have been renewed.
iakov the fool
Yes, of course.
I don't see anything about "rejoining with the Father in Heaven" in these verses. Could you direct me to where that is spoken of?
But the problem with this view is that "that which isperfect" here is neuter gender. If "that which is perfect" was a reference to the return of Christ, Paul would have used the masculine gender.
"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"
So.......Until the kingdom of God comes, we will remain children. Be tossed around by every wind of doctrine.
When the Kingdom comes...........we can finally become mature and put away our childish ways and finally stop being tricked my deceitful men and be tossed around by every wind of doctrine?
We would have to conclude that the deceitful men are more advanced then we are. They are always going to be one step ahead of us and toss us around by every wind of doctrine because we remain children and don't stand a chance with their trickery.
Jim Parker
Member
That is not what the scripture says and not what I said.
Until the kingdom comes, we will need to have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for the edification of believers. (Eph 4:11ff)
When the kingdom comes, they will no longer be necessary be cause we will be like Jesus. (1Jo 3:2)
We???
Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
YOU may conclude that but I see absolutely no reason to do so.
Scripture certainly doesn't support such a notion and I cannot imagine how you possibly came up with the idea.
There will always be such people attempting to deceive believers.
That;s why Paul warned Timothy that "If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. (1Ti 6:3-5)
And that is exactly why God "...gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." (Eph 4:11-16)
iakov the fool
Jim..........Eph 4~~"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man(Jim says that this is when the kingdom comes), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ(Jim says this is when the kingdom comes); that we should no longer be children(Jim says this is when the Kingdom comes), tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting( Jim says this is when the kingdom comes),"............If we can't come to unity of faith and full knowledge of the son and remain children until the kingdom of God(the perfect) comes......we just as well live like children and just sit around and wait it out.
"The perfect" is Gods finished word to us. We can go from children to complete/mature/adult believers just by studying His LIVING word('The perfect') to us.
Not only that FreeGrace(the 600lbs gorilla in the room that no one will touch with a 10 meter cattle prod).......but if we look close to how these certain gifts come to end are different.
Tongues cease from the middle voice and prophecy and knowledge end from the passive voice. So just that little bit of knowledge says that these gifts will stop/cease/be stilled at DIFFERENT times.......so the coming of the Lord Is OUT of the question for all of them stopping when the Lord comes or His kingdom comes.
The middle voice is interesting in tongues ceasing. The middle voice indicates that tongues will cease on their own accord. When they cease is when their job is done............when the Jews rejected Christ, were destroyed and God changed policy from the Jew to the Church.
The middle voice comes from tongues being a SIGN. When the SIGN was over...........tongues were over.
New American Standard Bible
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Isaiah 28~~
11Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
1 Cor 14:21~~New American Standard Bible
In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
Last edited:
This didn't come out in my post.......
I don't deny the reality of people claiming to speak in tongues/signs and wonders and DOING it, and the early church claiming to the same things. I deny the validity of it.
Tongues and being over 'emotional' is exactly why Paul wrote to the Corinthians and their being out of order and not doing things decently.
2 Cor 6:11~~New American Standard Bible
You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own affections(feelings/emotions.)
The "tongues" speech from Paul was because the Corinthians were WAYYYYYYYYY out of order and most were edifying themselves, rather than Glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ.
Same speech could be used again
