“As He Is”

[netchaplain]

Once I discovered the use of the terms “position” and “condition” to help explain the Christians relation to God I quickly understood more specifically the status concerning fellowship with Him in Christ. Positionally, Christians are “as He is” (1 Jhn 4:17); Conditionally, we have a sin nature (Gal 5:17) and a “new “ nature (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10), but even though the sin nature yet affects us (cannot be avoided - Pro 6:27, 28), we are not desirous of it, e.g. not after or “in” the sin nature (Rom 8:9).

We still sin due to the sin nature but it’s “no longer I,” e.g. me in my new nature, “but sin that dwelleth in me,” e.g. me with my old nature - Rom 7:17, 20). This conflict reveals in our condition the infinite difference between sinning “willfully” (Heb 10:26; Num 15:30) or “unintentionally” (Num 15:24-29), which is all a manifestation of the Father’s “work in you” (Phil 2:13).

In our condition we still sin but much more importantly, in our position we stand “spotless” (Eph 5:27; 2 Pet 3:14). Where we are in our condition is what the Father uses to glorify Himself (Mat 5:16); Who we are in our position is with what He uses to fellowship. As it has been well said that, “God does not fellowship with our sin,” that is, not with us in our sin nature (though we’re not in our sin nature - Ron 8:9 - it is in us) but with us in our “new” nature, because it is after the Lord Jesus’ nature (Col 3:10).

Who we are in our new nature is all that the Father regards, thus we need not allow what we are in our sin nature and its affects to distract us in our understanding that it’s us in our position (Heb 1:3; 9:9, 14; 10:2, 22) with which He fellowships. What we are in our condition is ussed to teach us and to manifest Himself to ourselves and others.

May God give us to always remind ourselves of who we are in our position, more than what we might consider ourselves to be in our condition! One’s position is always vastly more significant than one’s condition! Similarly to the captivity of a king’s son; though restrained—yet a prince!

Bob Hall (NC)

 

[reba]

As always

 

[chessman]

Picture Fallen Man clothed with fig leaves covering his loin:

Genesis 3:7 (NASB) 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.​

Picture Man clothed in animal skin garments covering his body:

Genesis 3:21 (NASB) 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
​

Picture man clothed with the resurrected imperishable Christ (God):

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.​

Now that's a garment with conditions attached.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great post, net chaplain! Thanks.

The difference between position and condition really needs to be understood for the believer to be able to fellowship with the Lord.

Another way of describing the Christian life by way of sanctification is to understand positional sanctification vs progressive sanctification.

Our position in Christ means we are positionally sanctified. However, our present condition determines whether we are progressing in our sanctification. Another term for progressive sanctification is spiritual growth.

Without fellowship with the Lord, we cannot grow up spiritually (in our salvation- 1 Pet 2:2). In order to be in fellowship with the Lord, we must confess our sins, for forgiveness and cleansing. Fellowship is impossible apart from this cleansing. As you said, "God cannot fellowship with our sin".

It's sad how many Christians are so concerned about trying to keep their salvation, by various means, rather than focusing on how to have fellowship with the Lord. It seems their theology has no place for fellowship. It's either a saved son or a lost son. Only relationship.

Great thread! Should be some interesting posts.

 

[netchaplain]

As always

Thanks, as always, Sis!!

 

[netchaplain]

Picture Fallen Man clothed with fig leaves covering his loin:

Genesis 3:7 (NASB) 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.​

Picture Man clothed in animal skin garments covering his body:

Genesis 3:21 (NASB) 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
​

Picture man clothed with the resurrected imperishable Christ (God):

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.​

Now that's a garment with conditions attached.

Nice allegory! Also, IMO, "conditions" is singular--condition, e.g. faith!

Blessings!

 

[chessman]

IMO, "conditions" is singular--condition, e.g. faith!

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

 

[netchaplain]

Great post, net chaplain! Thanks.

The difference between position and condition really needs to be understood for the believer to be able to fellowship with the Lord.

Thanks and well put! I believe God has full fellowship with all believers from the time of rebirth on, and now it's a matter of time in teaching us to fellowship with Him. IMO, our sanctification is in the capacity as our salvation, i.e. we (our spirit and soul) cannot be any more redeemed (except for our body - Rom 8:23; Rev 20:5) than we are at rebirth and the only progression concerns the strength of our faith as we increase in our understanding from the Spirit's teachings.

I realize that many understand sanctification as being in degrees, but I never see anything in Scripture related to our sanctification described as being progressive but constant from rebirth.

 

[netchaplain]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Another fine applicable passage! Thanks Brother!

 

[FreeGrace]

Thanks and well put! I believe God has full fellowship with all believers from the time of rebirth on, and now it's a matter of time in teaching us to fellowship with Him.

However, Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to stop grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. How can there be fellowship with God during these conditions? That's why we need to confess our sins. For forgiveness and cleansing. And to restore fellowship.

IMO, our sanctification is in the capacity as our salvation, i.e. we (our spirit and soul) cannot be any more redeemed (except for our body - Rom 8:23; Rev 20:5) than we are at rebirth and the only progression concerns the strength of our faith as we increase in our understanding from the Spirit's teachings.

I realize that many understand sanctification as being in degrees, but I never see anything in Scripture related to our sanctification described as being progressive but constant from rebirth.

Consider
Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Obviously, our salvation is not obtained nor maintained by works of any kind. So this is a reference to progressive sanctification.

 

[gr8grace3]

However, Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to stop grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. How can there be fellowship with God during these conditions? That's why we need to confess our sins. For forgiveness and cleansing. And to restore fellowship.


Consider
Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Obviously, our salvation is not obtained nor maintained by works of any kind. So this is a reference to progressive sanctification.

Experiential /progressive sanctification >>>>1 Thess 4~~1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.<<<Positional sanctification.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thanks and well put! I believe God has full fellowship with all believers from the time of rebirth on, and now it's a matter of time in teaching us to fellowship with Him. IMO, our sanctification is in the capacity as our salvation, i.e. we (our spirit and soul) cannot be any more redeemed (except for our body - Rom 8:23; Rev 20:5) than we are at rebirth and the only progression concerns the strength of our faith as we increase in our understanding from the Spirit's teachings.

I realize that many understand sanctification as being in degrees, but I never see anything in Scripture related to our sanctification described as being progressive but constant from rebirth.

Can you provide a verse that says a believer will NOT live in his/her condition? The believer is guaranteed to live(in time) in his/her position in Christ?

Through out scripture we are taught that experiential/ progressive/spiritual maturity sanctification is a potential and not a guarantee. God has provided everything we need to grow in His grace and knowledge..........but MANY never tap into the resources he has provided to grow in His knowledge. Doesn't mean they are not positional secure IN HIM.........they will just never figure it out in time.

17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

John 2:28~~New American Standard Bible
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

Abide in Him......

1 John 1:9~~Name and site our sin and human good/evil to him.........to get back in fellowship with Him.

Do not grieve the spirit.

Do not quench the spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Be filled with Spirit........1 John 1:9 if we have grieved or quenched the Spirit.

And many believers do NOT follow these commands( How Jesus walked/ He never had to confess sin but He constantly was walking in the Spirit and was filled with the Spirit.)........So they are NOT growing in His grace and knowledge or progressing in their sanctification.

 

[netchaplain]

However, Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to stop grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. How can there be fellowship with God during these conditions? That's why we need to confess our sins. For forgiveness and cleansing. And to restore fellowship.

Thanks FG for your reply! For Christians, grieving and quenching the Spirit are not what we would ever desire to do. At the time these admonitions were made the Christians were still learning how they were doing it in ignorance, which are examples in the Word for us to learn from, for they did not have the Word compiles yet as it is now for us.

All the admonitions in the NT made by the Apostles, esp. Paul were teachings to believers, and those who continued in the errors were never believers; and those who received them and lived by them showed God was in them to do it, as He is in us today--"working in us" (Phil 2:13) to do His desire. All who do not desire God's pleasures is only because He has not worked this in them--maybe never, maybe later, we can't know who will or will not reject Him until it is seen in them.

Consider
Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed — not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence — continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Obviously, our salvation is not obtained nor maintained by works of any kind. So this is a reference to progressive sanctification.

This passage is to be understood in the sense of working out of your salvation, for redemption has no degrees is salvation. we're either saved or not. Right? As I've already mentioned I have never seen it written that anything would relate to change in our sanctification from time of rebirth. It's always used in a past tense, i.e. have been or are sanctified. The only passage in the KJV that appears to refers to a progression is "That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost" (Rom 15:16). Some attempt to give "being sanctified" the sense of progression but it merely intends, "since they are sanctified."

Good inquiries, thanks and blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

Can you provide a verse that says a believer will NOT live in his/her condition? The believer is guaranteed to live(in time) in his/her position in Christ?

Guaranteed to eventually, and more all the time, will "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13 - it can easily be seen this is my most used passage; Gal 5:17). I also find it instructional that sanctification, and all things that are godly cannot effected (produced) by works (our walk), but only by the work of the Spirit in the life (Col 3:4) of the Lord Jesus. Our walk can only manifest these things, and are not intended to be self-produce, which I realize that many are of this notion.

Through our scripture we are taught that experiential/ progressive/spiritual maturity sanctification is a potential and not a guarantee. God has provided everything we need to grow in His grace and knowledge..........but MANY never tap into the resources he has provided to grow in His knowledge. Doesn't mean they are not positional secure IN HIM.........they will just never figure it out in time.

I agree concerning time to "figure it out," but since there is no restriction with Phil 2 and Gal 5, it can be assumed God does this for all who are saved. I also realize the good possibility that many take a long time to show this "work" of desire in them, but there are numerous potential reason for this, i.e. still lazy, requires more time to understand due to being slow mentally, and other reasons, but if it's due to lack of desire it's possible that they are saved and He is not working in them, which will also eventually show itself.

 

[gr8grace3]

Guaranteed to eventually, and more all the time, will "desire and do His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13 - it can easily be seen this is my most used passage; Gal 5:17).

Phil 2 :13 is a guarantee about the Holy Spirit. Not a guarantee about the believer. It is the Holy Spirit who keeps on desiring the will and good of God in us......not us........we can grieve or quench The Spirit.

Where is the guarantee that the believer will choose to do His good? His desire and good pleasure for the believer is to follow His will for their lives .........where does it say God forces the believer to follow His will and good pleasure for them in this life. I know, In a sense, God forces us at the the Bema seat. But not in time or this life.

And Gal 5:17 Proves this. The flesh and the Spirit are in constant conflict. If we desire things from the flesh.......we CANNOT operate in the Spirit. If we desire things from the Spirit(filled with the Spirit) We CANNOT operate from the flesh.

Galatians 5:17 (KJV 1900)
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If we are operating from the flesh.........we can't do things in the Spirit.

If we are operating from the Spirit....we can't do things from the flesh.

 

[netchaplain]

Phil 2 :13 is a guarantee about the Holy Spirit. Not a guarantee about the believer. It is the Holy Spirit who keeps on desiring the will and good of God in us......not us........we can grieve or quench The Spirit.

I see it as the believer being the subject. After all, the Father, Son and Spirit does everything for us. I don't see Them doing things for Themselves to be an issue, but of course it's just our differences of opinion and understanding.

Where is the guarantee that the believer will choose to do His good?

It's in understanding Phil 2:13. I see no indication in this passage not to include all who are reborn.

His desire and good pleasure for the believer is to follow His will for their lives .........where does it say God forces the believer to follow His will and good pleasure for them in this life.

I do not think God working in us to desire and do His pleasure could be considered as forcing us, but instead causes us to want to, without which "work" we would not desire it in our own nature, which would be unacceptable, because it would not be out of faith. If must be out of the Spirit, because He is the only one to give faith (Gal 5:22).

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"However, Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to stop grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. How can there be fellowship with God during these conditions? That's why we need to confess our sins. For forgiveness and cleansing. And to restore fellowship."

Thanks FG for your reply! For Christians, grieving and quenching the Spirit are not what we would ever desire to do.

I think the issue is about how people perceive their actions. Those who become self centered and want to do their own thing probably don't think of it as wanting to grieve or quench the Spirit. But while that may not be their desire, that is exactly the outcome of being self centered, etc. Which is why Paul commanded them to stop doing it. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

At the time these admonitions were made the Christians were still learning how they were doing it in ignorance, which are examples in the Word for us to learn from, for they did not have the Word compiles yet as it is now for us.

We, in this century, are no less susceptible to such ignorance. Which is why the commands are still relevant.

All the admonitions in the NT made by the Apostles, esp. Paul were teachings to believers, and those who continued in the errors were never believers; and those who received them and lived by them showed God was in them to do it, as He is in us today--"working in us" (Phil 2:13) to do His desire.

Many believers today continue in error. Jesus gave reasons why some will believe for a while and then fall away: testing/temptations.

All who do not desire God's pleasures is only because He has not worked this in them--maybe never, maybe later, we can't know who will or will not reject Him until it is seen in them.

Is this a suggestion that those who do not desire God's pleasures is God's fault? No, it's always their own fault. We know this because of what Peter (the "rockhead" apostle) wrote in 2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

The key here is that one must take advantage of this divine power. It's not on auto pilot. We must engage the power. We do this by the filling of the Holy Spirit. Which requires confession of sin for cleansing and then actively seeking this filling (Eph 5:18) by praying for God's will (1 John 5:14,15) in that regard.

I was taught many years ago that confession resulted in the filling of the Holy Spirit. But confession is for fellowship, not service. 1 John 5;14,15 teaches that we must ask according to God's will. Well, what is His will? To be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18). So we need to pray for it. I do not believe it is automatic.

This passage is to be understood in the sense of working out of your salvation, for redemption has no degrees is salvation. we're either saved or not. Right?

Absolutely right. We are either saved or not. No degrees. But to "work out your salvation" is a reference to spiritual growth. Or progressive sanctification. The concept of salvation includes past, present and future tenses:
past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
present tense: saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
future tense: saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

As I've already mentioned I have never seen it written that anything would relate to change in our sanctification from time of rebirth. It's always used in a past tense, i.e. have been or are sanctified.

This would be one's positional sanctification. Which relates directly to eternal security. But there is the concept of progressive sanctification, or spiritual growth, seen here:
Gal 4:19 - My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,
Eph 4:13 - until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[netchaplain]

I said this:
"However, Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to stop grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. How can there be fellowship with God during these conditions? That's why we need to confess our sins. For forgiveness and cleansing. And to restore fellowship."

I appreciate your attempting to share more clearly with me here, but I believe those who profess faith and continue in resisting, grieving and quenching the Spirit are probably unbelievers, because since God causes (works) all who are reborn to want to do His "pleasure," they will eventually understand the wrong and discontinue it.

I think the issue is about how people perceive their actions. Those who become self centered and want to do their own thing probably don't think of it as wanting to grieve or quench the Spirit. But while that may not be their desire, that is exactly the outcome of being self centered, etc. Which is why Paul commanded them to stop doing it. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

I can agree with most here, but as I mentioned earlier I believe it was more due to ignorance and immaturity rather than knowing they were doing wrong.

Blessings!

 

[gr8grace3]

It's in understanding Phil 2:13. I see no indication in this passage not to include all who are reborn.

"It's in understanding." Is the key issue. We don't get to magically understand. We have to search His mind diligently to understand His mind.

Our faith, is His mind and His ways.......and we do not grow in His grace and knowledge(our faith) if we don't diligently study His Word. It takes discipline and effort on our part to grow spiritually.<<<<<<<equal privilege for all, but not all take advantage of their assets.

In fact, the main reason for naming and siting our sin(1 john 1:9) to God is for regaining fellowship with the Spirit ....... to learn His word while in fellowship with the Spirit and apply it to our lives.

And many believer's do not study His word while in fellowship with the Spirit.

Acts 17:11~~New American Standard Bible
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[FreeGrace]

I appreciate your attempting to share more clearly with me here, but I believe those who profess faith and continue in resisting, grieving and quenching the Spirit are probably unbelievers, because since God causes (works) all who are reborn to want to do His "pleasure," they will eventually understand the wrong and discontinue it.

I get the feeling that spiritual growth, or the lack of it, plays no part in your theology.

How would any unbeliever be able to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit?

The epistles were written to churches of believers. What was written is also just as relevant to us today. If believers don't grow up spiritually, they will stay out of fellowship, be selfish, and continue to grieve/quench the Spirit. The result is loss of eternal reward.

I can agree with most here, but as I mentioned earlier I believe it was more due to ignorance and immaturity rather than knowing they were doing wrong.

Blessings!

And that continues to be the issue today.