“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[netchaplain]

What is the believer to be mostly assured of in the Faith?—“eternal salvation.” Nothing within the biblical doctrine of Soteriology can have even a scintilla of meaning if it rests apart from supporting the truth that “He who promised is faithful” (vs 23). “Promised” what? What in all existence has the greatest significance? Is it not endless fellowship with God! Thus, eternal life—via salvation—is the most important promise.

The two most often discussed issues on this subject are when the gift of eternal life becomes a reality within the Christian, and the concept of losing this gift. Firstly, there can be no doubt that salvation begins at the point of faith received, otherwise there can be no other possible explanation concerning its chronological initiation. Secondly, how could it stand to reason to perceive that anything about salvation is temporal, and even if this were possible, that God gives temporal salvation to anyone, since it means “to be eternally redeemed”? This would be to either doubt God’s omniscience concerning His foreknowledge of individuals as to whether or not they will remain in it; or to misunderstand omniscience, or to be uninformed concerning the fact that God possesses omniscience.

Faith in the provisions of these truths hold a greater meaning in this life than in the next, “for why does one still hope for what he sees (Rom 8:24)? As it is written, “We walk by faith, not by sight” (2Cor 5:7), and sight in the next life will then be the connection instead of faith now. The greatest difficulty, due to it being the most important for maturity, is that of releasing one’s own trust in self in order to see the security in the Father’s hand (true even if not realized – John 10:29) for all who are His! I say the greatest difficulty, because it is when all we’ve come to believe in concerning Christ’s mediation is tested and exercised the most, which is simple dependence on Christ’s expiation concerning our “old man” (sin source) and its sins.

It abides well to realize that all the guilt incurred is not from sins or sinning, but from the possession (by association) of the sin source, which is to say that even if one could stop sinning altogether, the curse of guilt would yet abide within, due to the ever-present (Rom 7:17, 18, 20; Gal 5:17) source. Faith is at its pinnacle of glorifying God when exercised in “full assurance” of the Lord Jesus’ Cross-work while coexisting (but never coalescing) with the sinful Adamic nature.

- NC

 

[Jim Parker]

Secondly, how could it stand to reason to perceive that anything about salvation is temporal, and even if this were possible, that God gives temporal salvation to anyone, since it means “to be eternally redeemed”?

How could it be?
How about, the scriptures explicitly state that to be the case?

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

 

[netchaplain]

How could it be?
How about, the scriptures explicitly state that to be the case?

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

The phrase "in Me" in this passage is often mistaken as supporting the concept as truly being in Christ, but this is a hyperbolic expression (which Scripture often uses for reasons of obscurity) to denote only an "appearance" of being in Him, and appears to believe, in which case there would be fruit bearing, being in Christ, not by profession only but by possession also.

Gill: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace: and such branches the husbandman taketh away."

Just as Judas appeared on the outside to be of Christ, his inward being was shown to be void of connection with Him. Same as a barren branch on a fruit tree, it appears to be connected on the outside, but the inside has no vital connection between the branch and the stock, revealing that it never did, or it would have resulted in the same outcome as the fruitful branches.

Blessings!

 

[Jim Parker]

The phrase "in Me" in this passage is often mistaken as supporting the concept as truly being in Christ, but this is a hyperbolic expression (which Scripture often uses for reasons of obscurity) to denote only an "appearance" of being in Him, and appears to believe, in which case there would be fruit bearing, being in Christ, not by profession only but by possession also.

Please! Give me a break!

That is an blatant attempt to explain away an obvious and very clear refutation, by Jesus own words, of the OSAS heresy by trying to say that Jesus "didn't really mean" exactly what he very clearly said.

And when Jesus spoke to His disciples, He spoke clearly so that they would understand and be able to preach the Gospel after He had ascended and sent the Holy Spirit. This particular statement was made to Jesus disciples at the "last supper" after Judas had departed. It was part of His last teaching to them before He was arrested. And do you really tell people that Jesus was trying to obfuscate His true meaning; that, with His final teaching, He would leave them confused? That's preposterous.

Jesus followed that statement a few sentences later with the parallel teaching that believers must "abide" in Him.

Jhn 15:4-6 (RSV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

It is not possible to "abide" in Jesus if one is not in fact, truly IN Jesus.
But it is possible to cease to abide in Jesus.

You have attempted to make the words of Jesus fit your religious beliefs rather than making your theology fit Jesus' words. That is called isogesis, inserting a meaning into scripture that the scripture does not support.

There is absolutely nothing in the Greek which even hints at a suggestion of a remote possibility that "in me" (ἐν ἐμοὶ) doesn't really mean "in me" exactly as it says.

Mat 15:6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

It certainly appears to be what you are doing.

 

[netchaplain]

There is absolutely nothing in the Greek which even hints at a suggestion of a remote possibility that "in me" (ἐν ἐμοὶ) doesn't really mean "in me" exactly as it says.

The Greek for "abide" (G3306, Strong's) is the same word for "dwelling place" or "place of abode," thus "in Me" in these passages intends dwelling place, thus "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me," can be interpreted "Dwell in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself ("itself" - not with Christ but is alone), except it dwells in the vine, etc. John 6:56; 14:10; 1John 3:24; 4:12-16

Nobody can show they are in Christ if He is not there abode or placing of dwelling!

 

[smaller]

Romans 11:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The "natural flesh man" has nothing that God is interested in. The natural flesh man is, by the flesh nature, against God and contrary to God. And vice versa.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

We all, every last one of us, remain with the carnal mind, as Paul himself shows us in his own post salvation state here:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Not was carnal. "I am carnal."

This led Paul to realize that his own flesh could do NOTHING other than to serve the law of sin. Romans 7:25.

Carnal, natural, old man, Adamic nature are all pointers to the flesh in which dwells sin and evil present. Romans 7:17-21.

The flesh of every person contains these facts. And yes, it is entirely Gods Intentions for all believers to depart from the flesh and to eventually pass away from the flesh.

God quite purposefully planted man in corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that is doomed and destined to return to the dust. 1 Cor. 15:42-47.

There is a first natural man, and, at Gods Own Call to such, a last Spiritual man who arises from their dust planting.

So, with regards to "cutting off?" Every believer gets PRUNED in their natural state. This does not mean they are not saved. This does not mean they are going to be eternally damned. How do we know this?

Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Where we see the natural man, really an entire body of generations of Israelites, cast away by God, it is also a picture of the casting away of every natural man. This action by God should not lead any believer to conclude they are lost, but what "we" also should anticipate with the fate of our natural condition.

However, the natural man will, by his natural nature, refuse pruning. Not that it won't happen anyway. But that man will deny his natural state, and think it instead, in alignment with God. Nothing could be further from the truth. The natural man is a liar by nature, and will seek to save his own sorry hide. A spiritual person knows we need to ditch that aspect of ourselves, even though we are presently ALL stuck quite securely to it.

God in Christ did not come to bring peace, but a Sword. Matt. 10:34.
God in Christ came to set a saved person at variance, at odds, with all natural men including being against their own natural carnal existence.

Matthew 10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

No natural flesh, no natural man, can submit to these conclusions. The natural man will always seek to save his own flesh. The Spiritual man knows that his own flesh nature is at odds with God, in enmity with God, not Gods friend and ally. And such will seek to cut themselves off, divide from that aspect of themselves, deny their own flesh. And eventually come to the understanding that our own flesh has issues with spiritual wickedness that is of our adversary, the devil. The natural man will always of course whine that this isn't the case. But it IS the case. Sin is for no uncertain fact, of the devil. 1 John 3:8. The natural man, led by that spirit of disobedience, will always claim otherwise.

A person in the Spirit, walking with the Spirit, knows they can not be lost, and that their natural body, with sin indwelling and evil present with it, can not be saved. Nor can that body, that natural body, planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor, be legal or obedient, even when this appears to be the case on the surface, in the eyes of the natural man. The natural mind, by it's nature, always leans to DECEPTION. A Spiritual person will eventually be shown this reality, at least, at the end of their natural man state. But some will see it sooner, as God Dictates to them to see.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is absolutely nothing in the Greek which even hints at a suggestion of a remote possibility that "in me" (ἐν ἐμοὶ) doesn't really mean "in me" exactly as it says.

I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS.
In OSAS the list is really quite long of all the scriptures that don't really mean what they say.

The question of what not abiding in Christ really means for the one no longer abiding in Christ, or who has never been in Christ to begin with, is answered for us in John's minor letters.

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (1 John 2:24 NASB)
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

We see two things here: 1) The condition for abiding in the Son and the Father is that you abide in "what you heard from the beginning". And abiding in the Son and the Father is what you have to do in order to have eternal life, because you have to have the Son and the Father in order to have eternal life. 2) He's warning saved people presently abiding in the word of the gospel to abide (continue) in the gospel, not people who are 'not really' saved and who need to start abiding in the gospel.

The bottom line is, in order to have eternal life you have to have the Father. But if you cease to abide in Father you no longer have eternal life.

 

[netchaplain]

Romans 11:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The "natural flesh man" has nothing that God is interested in. The natural flesh man is, by the flesh nature, against God and contrary to God. And vice versa.

Hi Smaller - Like your accurate post and thanks for the reply, Yes, it's the person in the new nature from Christ that God "works in" (Phl 2:13). One of the first lessons of spiritual growth is that the flesh (not the body but the sinful nature or old man) is not intended to be "pruned" but to remain of the Cross (Rom 6:6 "is crucified" for restraint) until its removal from existence. Until this is learned many a saint attempt to make the old man better, but God eventually shows each the truth concerning this greatly significant issue.

Concerning the above passage, it was the unbelieving branches of Israel who were not spared (Rom 11:20), same for all Gentiles. God concluded not only all Jews in unbelief (Rom 11:32) but also all Gentiles (Rom 3:23), and unbelief is the same as sin. Only those who come to faith receive eternal life, which IMO means you cannot loose eternal life or it's not eternal.

Blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

The bottom line is, in order to have eternal life you have to have the Father. But if you cease to abide in Father you no longer have eternal life.

HI JB - Thanks for you input. As you may know, if you have the Son you "have the Father also" (1John 2:23), and if the Son has made His abode in you (John 15:4) He will never leave you, nor forsake you (Heb 13:5). Some think the believer can leave Him, but how could that be possible is God is causing ("working") in you the desire not to leave Him, which is included in "His good pleasure (Phl 2:13)." This would be to deny that God can do this work in anyone (not suspecting any individual of course)!

Abiding in Christ (and it's the Father who keeps us abiding) is evidence of those who have made their abode in Him. Those who do not desire to abide in Him have not made their abode (dwelling place) in Him, which also evinces the absence of the Father's "work" in him.

Blessings!

 

[chessman]

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (1 John 2:24 NASB)

And the '...:'

1 John 2:24 (LEB) As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. ...​

OSAS in one verse. When someone comes along and says that John said: 'as for you, what you have heard from the beginning might not remain in you, that person lies. John says it's a must. I believe John.

1 John 2:25 (LEB) And this is the promise which he himself promised us: eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:20 (LEB) For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us.​

OSAS in two verses. God promised us Eternal Life, not temporary life. It simply must remain in you (else the '...' of 1 John 2:24 has been ignored.

26 These things I have written to you concerning the ones who are trying to deceive you.
27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you do not have need that anyone teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you reside in him.​

When someone comes along and teaches; 'And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him might not remain in you, that person lies.

1 John 5:12 (LEB) The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

Amen. And if that wasn't clear enough:

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
​

I know that I have Eternal Life (not temporary life) based on the promises of God that must remain and are true.

 

[netchaplain]

Amen. And if that wasn't clear enough:

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
​

I know that I have Eternal Life (not temporary life) based on the promises of God that must remain and are true.

Hi Chessman - Good stuff and thanks for your input! And the phrase "that you may know" is sensible only if applied to knowing in the present life, for if this were told to you in the next life, it being axiomatic (self evident) then, it would be redundant and not sensible.

Regardless how much is shared on this subject, God still has to bring it to one's understanding to be taught the truth of it. I believe Scripture is often obscure, even with highly significant doctrine, and this is to cause us to lean more on God and seek His teaching more for right understanding.

Blessings!

 

[chessman]

How about, the scriptures explicitly state that to be the case?

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

Why think Jesus said here; 'The Father sends every branch in me that bears no fruit to the Lake of Fire'? That's about the clearest example of eisegesis that I can think of (to think that's what Jesus clearly said or meant). Yes Jesus later explains to them that a branch that is in Him (one that is already "clean", I should add) yet that does not remain in Him bearing much fruit is pruned and withers and is gathered and is thrown into the fire and is burned.

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

But why think these words (spoken to His "already clean" disciples, v3) are meant to be understood as being sent to the Lake of Fire? One must insert this meaning into the words of Jesus. Seems more reasonable to me Jesus means here that if you, as a disciple, stop bearing fruit you die (are cut off from the source of life by The Gardener) and wither (your body decomposes) and then burned with fire (judged and purified). But either way, this Text doesn't say you are sent to the Lake of Fire if you do not bear fruit. One must insert that idea into the Text to come to that conclusion. Not to mention have the idea in mind that you must bear fruit to remain saved.

 

[chessman]

I believe Scripture is often obscure,

Especially when it's given via a parable or figuratively.

Luke 8:9-10 (LEB) And his disciples asked him what this parable meant. And he said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest they are in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

John 16:29-30 (LEB) His disciples said, “Behold, now you are speaking plainly and are telling us no figurative saying! Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe that you have come from God.” ​

Notice the figurative language Jesus used with them prior to John 16. Like in John 15.

 

[netchaplain]

Especially when it's given via a parable or figuratively.

Luke 8:9-10 (LEB) And his disciples asked him what this parable meant. And he said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest they are in parables, so that ‘Seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

John 16:29-30 (LEB) His disciples said, “Behold, now you are speaking plainly and are telling us no figurative saying! Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe that you have come from God.” ​

Notice the figurative language Jesus used with them prior to John 16. Like in John 15.

Good point, this shows them going to Christ for understanding, which many have not learned to do in this dispensation. One is left with the choice of going to man's teachings if they do not seek God's teachings (1Cor 2:13). It's not that they do not desire God's teaching but that they do not familiarize themselves (read the Word enough) enough with His Word so He can teach them. When we do not maintain a sufficient amount of reading Scripture (esp. the NT since it's the present dispensation) we are not as mindful of its knowledge as we should be in order to increase our understanding in it (Jam 1:23, 24).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

HI JB - Thanks for you input. As you may know, if you have the Son you "have the Father also" (1John 2:23), and if the Son has made His abode in you (John 15:4) He will never leave you, nor forsake you (Heb 13:5). Some think the believer can leave Him, but how could that be possible is God is causing ("working") in you the desire not to leave Him, which is included in "His good pleasure (Phl 2:13)." This would be to deny that God can do this work in anyone (not suspecting any individual of course)!

Abiding in Christ (and it's the Father who keeps us abiding) is evidence of those who have made their abode in Him. Those who do not desire to abide in Him have not made their abode (dwelling place) in Him, which also evinces the absence of the Father's "work" in him.

Blessings!

What this argument boils down to is the warnings in scripture, written to people presently abiding in the gospel warning them not to be deceived and to continue to abide in him so they can continue to have eternal life, are sufficient to keep the believer from not abiding in the gospel anymore. It's a good, respectable argument. But the problem is the Bible itself and the plain evidence around us show us that abiding people really do leave the faith and no longer abide in the gospel word, And scripture is very plain about this and says if you are not abiding in the gospel word you no longer have God the Father and the Son and eternal life.

My tongue talking wife departed the faith. So I know from actual experience that people whom God has attached to the Christ vine and have received His Spirit do indeed dry up and no longer abide in the vine. And Christ himself said those branches are cut off from the vine and will be gathered together and are scheduled for burning. While Christ gives space and time for fruitless branches to begin receiving the life of the vine again, and as a result produce fruit, the time does come when the fruitless branch is cut off from the vine and set aside for burning. A similar analogy is in Hebrews 6:7 NASB. There the author talks about fields that eventually wear out the patience of the farmer who waters and seeds it and which then gets burned. And the author says that doesn't happen in regard to where salvation is present (vs. 9). But so many people want to insist that the field that does not produce it's expected fruit, or stops producing it, is still somehow land that will never ever be burned.

 

[chessman]

​

When we do not maintain a sufficient amount of reading Scripture (esp. the NT since it's the present dispensation) we are not as mindful of its knowledge as we should be ...

John 15:11 (LEB) I have spoken these things to you in order that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be made complete. ​

The reason Jesus told His disciples the things that He did in John 15:1 and 5 (and everything else in v1-10) was so that their joy may be made complete in them. If someone reads John 15:1-10 and doesn't come away with an understanding of it as His Joy being made complete in them, then they are missing His point and inserting their own 'point'.

John 15:3 (LEB) You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
​

Why were they "already clean"? Umm, because The Word said so, that's why. It certainly wasn't because they produced enough fruit each year not to get pruned and burned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As you may know, if you have the Son you "have the Father also" (1John 2:23), and if the Son has made His abode in you (John 15:4) He will never leave you, nor forsake you (Heb 13:5).

The author of Hebrews is quoting Deuteronomy 31:6.
Here's the rest of the story...the part the Protestant church leaves out:

"15Then the Lord appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the tent. 16And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods." (Deuteronomy 31:15-18 NASB)

 

[chessman]

What's also 'interesting' is that when John 10:28-29 or John 17:3 is mentioned as an OSAS teaching passage, the anti-OSAS teachers point out that those particular verses are specifically spoken to and specifically about the 12 Disciples of Jesus (which is true of course) and thusly cannot/should not be applied to modern day disciples of Jesus like you/me (which is speculation of course).

Well guess what? John 15:1 and John 15:4 were also spoken to and about His disciples too! They are part of the same conversation as John 17. Yet suddenly, John 15:1, 4 apply to you/me, no questions asked. Funny how that 'works'.

Odd really. And quite inconsistent.

John 17:11 (LEB) And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are.

John 10:27-29 (LEB) My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”



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[Jim Parker]

Nobody can show they are in Christ if He is not there (their) abode or placing of dwelling!

That has nothing to do with the fact that there is absolutely no legitimate reason to attempt to make Jesus' words "in me" into "hyperbole" in order to give the illusion that He didn't mean what He said.

The Greek for "abide" (G3306, Strong's) is the same word for "dwelling place" or "place of abode," thus "in Me" in these passages intends dwelling place, thus "Abide in Me, and I in you.

And, by that study, you affirm that "in me" means "in me" as in an abode or a dwelling.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why think Jesus said here; 'The Father sends every branch in me that bears no fruit to the Lake of Fire'? That's about the clearest example of eisegesis that I can think of (to think that's what Jesus clearly said or meant)

Who said "lake of fire"? I didn't.
Jesus did say that those branches which did not abide in Him (and therefore bore no fruit) would be gathered up and cast into the fire.
To what do you think the word "fire" refers if not to the fires of hell?
ANd where does hell end up according to Rev. 20:14?
(KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
How is that "eisegeses"?

But why think these words (spoken to His "already clean" disciples, v3) are meant to be understood as being sent to the Lake of Fire?

Jesus did not say, "If one of you does not abide in me". He said "If a man does not abide in me." That refers to everyone in general, not specifically to the apostles.

Seems more reasonable to me Jesus means here that if you, as a disciple, stop bearing fruit you die (are cut off from the source of life by The Gardener) and wither (your body decomposes) and then burned with fire (judged and purified).

Where does Jesus ever use the word "fire" to refer to a process of judgment and purification?
What you deem "reasonable" is an excellent example of eisegesis. There is nothing in Jesus' words to suggest such an interpretation. His most common use of the word "fire" is with reference to the fires of hell.

But either way, this Text doesn't say you are sent to the Lake of Fire if you do not bear fruit. One must insert that idea into the Text to come to that conclusion. Not to mention have the idea in mind that you must bear fruit to remain saved.

The text says that the branches which do not abide in Jesus do not bear fruit and are thrown into the fire. Jesus' most common use of the word "fire" refers to hell.
John 15:5-6 (NKJV) I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The passage is pretty clear.
(1) Branches that do not bear fruit are taken away from the vine. (Jn 15:2)
(2) If one is taken away, one no longer abides in the vine.
(3) Those branches which do not abide in the vine do not produce fruit. (Jn 15:4)
(4) Those branches which do not abide in the vine are cast out, gathered up, thrown in the fire, and burned. (Jn 15:6)

Since Jesus consistently uses the word "fire" to refer to hell, (Mat 3:12, Mat 5:22, Mat 7:19, Mat 13:40-42, Mat 13:49-50, Mat 18:8-9, Mat 25:41 and that's just from Matthew!) it is most appropriate to understand that same meaning here. It is not eisegesis; it is consistent with Jesus' common use of the word.