“The Law of Sin”

[netchaplain]

What is your definition of "the Law?" If you mean the TC'S (Law of Moses), only the Hebrew/Jew had to die to it, which is what occurs at rebirth. Mankind is under the curse of "the law of sin," which was incurred to mankind from Adam (Rom 5:12). This law of sin has its force from God's command to Adam that, “thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:17)," and when sin is finished,” which was at the time of his "transgression" (Rom 5:14; Gen 3:6), the curse of the law of sin and death came into effect.

God pronounced the law of sin and death on all mankind in Genesis 2:17. This became the law of sin, which states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This curse was before the Mosaic Law (Rom 5:13) and was upon mankind. Therefore, in regeneration, the Hebrew/Jew is dead to the Law, and the law of sin, but the Gentile only to the law of sin. The curse of death continues in the body, but in the spirit, the guilt of sin is nullified (Col 2:14), and its dominion (Rom 6:12, 14) restrained, which restraint is commensurate with the believers "conformation."

Galatians 5:16: ". . . and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
JG - “He does not say there shall be no flesh, nor any lust of the flesh in them if they walk spiritually; or that the flesh should not act and operate in them; or that they should do no sinful action; all which is only true of Christ; and the contrary is to be found and observed in all true Christians, though ever so spiritual.

"But that they should not fulfil or perfect the lust of the flesh; should not give up themselves entirely to the power and dictates of the flesh, so as to be under it and at its command, and be obedient servants and slaves unto it; for, in this sense only, such that are spiritual do not, commit sin, they do not make a trade of it, it is not their constant employ or course of conversation.”

The fulfilling of sin, same as bringing sin to completion, or same as "when sin is finished" (Jam 1:15) designs the fact of not being a prisoner or "captive" (Rom 7:23) to it, but rather a willing subject, who does not feel captive against his will. If your desire is to be where sin is, you’re not a captive (from captivated) because it is according to your will and desires.

All are indwelt by sin through the sin nature, but only through regeneration does one become an unwilling subject to it, which is the intention of the word "captive," denoting it’s against one's will. Hence Paul’s, “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (Rom 7:15).

The desire Paul maintains against the sin nature comes from regeneration, a condition which is void in an unbeliever. Romans Eight does not instruct the absence of the sin nature, but the freedom believers have from its condemnation (8:1, 33), and Romans Six from its dominion (6:12, 14). Unbelievers are not captives, but rather willing subjects, as we were before Christ. Thus, sin is in us, but we are not after it, e.g. "in it" (Rom 8:9).


Note: The term "flesh" in the NT in nearly all of its usages refers to the sinful nature ("old man," Adamic nature), not the physical body. Otherwise it would conflict with what Paul said concerning us not being in the flesh.

 

[Chopper]

What is your definition of "the Law?" If you mean the TC'S (Law of Moses), only the Hebrew/Jew had to die to it, which is what occurs at rebirth. Mankind is under the curse of "the law of sin," which was incurred to mankind from Adam (Rom 5:12). This law of sin has its force from God's command to Adam that, “thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:17)," and when sin is finished,” which was at the time of his "transgression" (Rom 5:14; Gen 3:6), the curse of the law of sin and death came into effect.

God pronounced the law of sin and death on all mankind in Genesis 2:17. This became the law of sin, which states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This curse was before the Mosaic Law (Rom 5:13) and was upon mankind. Therefore, in regeneration, the Hebrew/Jew is dead to the Law, and the law of sin, but the Gentile only to the law of sin. The curse of death continues in the body, but in the spirit, the guilt of sin is nullified (Col 2:14), and its dominion (Rom 6:12, 14) restrained, which restraint is commensurate with the believers "conformation."

Galatians 5:16: ". . . and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
JG - “He does not say there shall be no flesh, nor any lust of the flesh in them if they walk spiritually; or that the flesh should not act and operate in them; or that they should do no sinful action; all which is only true of Christ; and the contrary is to be found and observed in all true Christians, though ever so spiritual.

"But that they should not fulfil or perfect the lust of the flesh; should not give up themselves entirely to the power and dictates of the flesh, so as to be under it and at its command, and be obedient servants and slaves unto it; for, in this sense only, such that are spiritual do not, commit sin, they do not make a trade of it, it is not their constant employ or course of conversation.”

The fulfilling of sin, same as bringing sin to completion, or same as "when sin is finished" (Jam 1:15) designs the fact of not being a prisoner or "captive" (Rom 7:23) to it, but rather a willing subject, who does not feel captive against his will. If your desire is to be where sin is, you’re not a captive (from captivated) because it is according to your will and desires.

All are indwelt by sin through the sin nature, but only through regeneration does one become an unwilling subject to it, which is the intention of the word "captive," denoting it’s against one's will. Hence Paul’s, “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (Rom 7:15).

The desire Paul maintains against the sin nature comes from regeneration, a condition which is void in an unbeliever. Romans Eight does not instruct the absence of the sin nature, but the freedom believers have from its condemnation (8:1, 33), and Romans Six from its dominion (6:12, 14). Unbelievers are not captives, but rather willing subjects, as we were before Christ. Thus, sin is in us, but we are not after it, e.g. "in it" (Rom 8:9).


Note: The term "flesh" in the NT in nearly all of its usages refers to the sinful nature ("old man," Adamic nature), not the physical body. Otherwise it would conflict with what Paul said concerning us not being in the flesh.

Very good my friend, Romans 7 and 8 have been two of the best Chapters that I have ever studied on the subject of sin. You have given an excellent picture of the "Law of sin" thank you very much. I learned some new facts.

 

[farouk]

What is your definition of "the Law?" If you mean the TC'S (Law of Moses), only the Hebrew/Jew had to die to it, which is what occurs at rebirth. Mankind is under the curse of "the law of sin," which was incurred to mankind from Adam (Rom 5:12). This law of sin has its force from God's command to Adam that, “thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:17)," and when sin is finished,” which was at the time of his "transgression" (Rom 5:14; Gen 3:6), the curse of the law of sin and death came into effect.

God pronounced the law of sin and death on all mankind in Genesis 2:17. This became the law of sin, which states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This curse was before the Mosaic Law (Rom 5:13) and was upon mankind. Therefore, in regeneration, the Hebrew/Jew is dead to the Law, and the law of sin, but the Gentile only to the law of sin. The curse of death continues in the body, but in the spirit, the guilt of sin is nullified (Col 2:14), and its dominion (Rom 6:12, 14) restrained, which restraint is commensurate with the believers "conformation."

Galatians 5:16: ". . . and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
JG - “He does not say there shall be no flesh, nor any lust of the flesh in them if they walk spiritually; or that the flesh should not act and operate in them; or that they should do no sinful action; all which is only true of Christ; and the contrary is to be found and observed in all true Christians, though ever so spiritual.

"But that they should not fulfil or perfect the lust of the flesh; should not give up themselves entirely to the power and dictates of the flesh, so as to be under it and at its command, and be obedient servants and slaves unto it; for, in this sense only, such that are spiritual do not, commit sin, they do not make a trade of it, it is not their constant employ or course of conversation.”

The fulfilling of sin, same as bringing sin to completion, or same as "when sin is finished" (Jam 1:15) designs the fact of not being a prisoner or "captive" (Rom 7:23) to it, but rather a willing subject, who does not feel captive against his will. If your desire is to be where sin is, you’re not a captive (from captivated) because it is according to your will and desires.

All are indwelt by sin through the sin nature, but only through regeneration does one become an unwilling subject to it, which is the intention of the word "captive," denoting it’s against one's will. Hence Paul’s, “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (Rom 7:15).

The desire Paul maintains against the sin nature comes from regeneration, a condition which is void in an unbeliever. Romans Eight does not instruct the absence of the sin nature, but the freedom believers have from its condemnation (8:1, 33), and Romans Six from its dominion (6:12, 14). Unbelievers are not captives, but rather willing subjects, as we were before Christ. Thus, sin is in us, but we are not after it, e.g. "in it" (Rom 8:9).


Note: The term "flesh" in the NT in nearly all of its usages refers to the sinful nature ("old man," Adamic nature), not the physical body. Otherwise it would conflict with what Paul said concerning us not being in the flesh.

Yes, I think that I would agree with all this, according to my 2c. Thank-you for these helpful comments.

We need to be clear that the church and Israel are two different entities, that being under law and under grace are not the same, and that Moses on the one hand and 'grace and truth...by Jesus Christ' (John 1) are distinct.

(You can see that I'm dispensational!)

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

What is your definition of "the Law?" If you mean the TC'S (Law of Moses), only the Hebrew/Jew had to die to it, which is what occurs at rebirth. Mankind is under the curse of "the law of sin," which was incurred to mankind from Adam (Rom 5:12). This law of sin has its force from God's command to Adam that, “thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:17)," and when sin is finished,” which was at the time of his "transgression" (Rom 5:14; Gen 3:6), the curse of the law of sin and death came into effect.

God pronounced the law of sin and death on all mankind in Genesis 2:17. This became the law of sin, which states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This curse was before the Mosaic Law (Rom 5:13) and was upon mankind. Therefore, in regeneration, the Hebrew/Jew is dead to the Law, and the law of sin, but the Gentile only to the law of sin. The curse of death continues in the body, but in the spirit, the guilt of sin is nullified (Col 2:14), and its dominion (Rom 6:12, 14) restrained, which restraint is commensurate with the believers "conformation."

Galatians 5:16: ". . . and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
JG - “He does not say there shall be no flesh, nor any lust of the flesh in them if they walk spiritually; or that the flesh should not act and operate in them; or that they should do no sinful action; all which is only true of Christ; and the contrary is to be found and observed in all true Christians, though ever so spiritual.

"But that they should not fulfil or perfect the lust of the flesh; should not give up themselves entirely to the power and dictates of the flesh, so as to be under it and at its command, and be obedient servants and slaves unto it; for, in this sense only, such that are spiritual do not, commit sin, they do not make a trade of it, it is not their constant employ or course of conversation.”

The fulfilling of sin, same as bringing sin to completion, or same as "when sin is finished" (Jam 1:15) designs the fact of not being a prisoner or "captive" (Rom 7:23) to it, but rather a willing subject, who does not feel captive against his will. If your desire is to be where sin is, you’re not a captive (from captivated) because it is according to your will and desires.

All are indwelt by sin through the sin nature, but only through regeneration does one become an unwilling subject to it, which is the intention of the word "captive," denoting it’s against one's will. Hence Paul’s, “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (Rom 7:15).

The desire Paul maintains against the sin nature comes from regeneration, a condition which is void in an unbeliever. Romans Eight does not instruct the absence of the sin nature, but the freedom believers have from its condemnation (8:1, 33), and Romans Six from its dominion (6:12, 14). Unbelievers are not captives, but rather willing subjects, as we were before Christ. Thus, sin is in us, but we are not after it, e.g. "in it" (Rom 8:9).


Note: The term "flesh" in the NT in nearly all of its usages refers to the sinful nature ("old man," Adamic nature), not the physical body. Otherwise it would conflict with what Paul said concerning us not being in the flesh.

Your note however about the flesh would make a good discussion.


Thanks JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We need to be clear that the church and Israel are two different entities, that being under law and under grace are not the same, and that Moses on the one hand and 'grace and truth...by Jesus Christ' (John 1) are distinct.

(You can see that I'm dispensational!)

Blessings.

Believing Jew and gentile have been made into one NEW body under grace:


11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups (Jew and gentile) into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household..." (Ephesians 2:11-19 NASB)

 

[farouk]

Believing Jew and gentile have been made into one NEW body under grace:


11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups (Jew and gentile) into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household..." (Ephesians 2:11-19 NASB)

Yes, indeed.

This does not mean that Israel and the church are the same, though.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

Believing Jew and gentile have been made into one NEW body under grace:


11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups (Jew and gentile) into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household..." (Ephesians 2:11-19 NASB)

Notice that wall that separated Jew and gentile was the law of commandments contained in ordinances ie; the law of Moses..

The Jews were required to keep the law of Moses, the Gentiles were not.

JLB

 

[farouk]

Notice that wall that separated Jew and gentile was the law of commandments contained in ordinances ie; the law of Moses..

The Jews were required to keep the law of Moses, the Gentiles were not.

JLB

...and if a Gentile is converted to Christ, s/he does not have to start living as a Jew, either.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, indeed.

This does not mean that Israel and the church are the same, though.

Blessings.

Israel does not even believe, so how can anyone say they are the same? But it is true that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and gentile (male, or female, etc.). There is one new man now...the body of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...and if a Gentile is converted to Christ, s/he does not have to start living as a Jew, either.

Blessings.

A Jew doesn't even have to start living like a Jew when they turn to Christ.

 

[farouk]

Israel does not even believe, so how can anyone say they are the same? But it is true that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and gentile (male, or female, etc.). There is one new man now...the body of Christ.

A Jew inwardly and Israel are distinct, dispensationally.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Notice that wall that separated Jew and gentile was the law of commandments contained in ordinances ie; the law of Moses..

The Jews were required to keep the law of Moses, the Gentiles were not.

JLB

Actually what Paul is referring to is how the law, especially the Rabbinical add-on law, discriminated between native Israelite and gentile, and male and female. For example, only men could be in the priesthood. And gentiles were not allowed to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Now, in Christ, no such distinctions and divisions exist. We are all one and alike before God in Christ.

"18...for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:18 NASB)

All the people of God now have equal access to God through Christ and are not prohibited in any way according to race, gender, or ministry as the law stipulated. Gentiles (and women) were second class citizens of the people of God under the law. Not so in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A Jew inwardly and Israel are distinct, dispensationally.

Blessings.

Believers and unbelievers have always been distinct from one another.

 

[JLB]

Actually what Paul is referring to is how the law, especially the Rabbinical add-on law, discriminated between native Israelite and gentile, and male and female. For example, only men could be in the priesthood. And gentiles were not allowed to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Now, in Christ, no such distinctions and divisions exist. We are all one and alike before God in Christ.

"18...for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father." (Ephesians 2:18 NASB)

All the people of God now have equal access to God through Christ and are not prohibited in any way according to race, gender, or ministry as the law stipulated. Gentiles (and women) were second class citizens of the people of God under the law. Not so in Christ.

Actually what Paul has clearly said is that the wall of separation is the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

The natural descendants of the bloodline of Abraham were on one side of the wall of seperation requiring them to keep the law.

On the other side of the wall of separation were the Gentiles who were not descendants of Abraham and were not required to live in the Physical land of Israel and were not a part of the covenant of Sinai and were not under the law of Moses. The descendants of Abraham were forbidden to intermarry with the gentiles.

... and never seek their peace or prosperity.

10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, 11 which You commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, 'The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land, with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from one end to another with their impurity. 12 Now therefore, do not give your daughters as wives for their sons, nor take their daughters to your sons; and never seek their peace or prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good of the land, and leave it as an inheritance to your children forever.' Ezra 9:10-12



I would find it very alarming if anyone would disagree with this fact.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually what Paul has clearly said is that the wall of separation is the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

The natural descendants of the bloodline of Abraham were on one side of the wall of seperation requiring them to keep the law.

On the other side of the wall of separation were the Gentiles who were not descendants of Abraham and were not required to live in the Physical land of Israel and were not a part of the covenant of Sinai and were not under the law of Moses. The descendants of Abraham were forbidden to intermarry with the gentiles.

... and never seek their peace or prosperity.

10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, 11 which You commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, 'The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land, with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from one end to another with their impurity. 12 Now therefore, do not give your daughters as wives for their sons, nor take their daughters to your sons; and never seek their peace or prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good of the land, and leave it as an inheritance to your children forever.' Ezra 9:10-12



I would find it very alarming if anyone would disagree with this fact.


JLB

It's not about who has to keep the law and who does not. It's about being a Jew and not being a Jew and how that limits or enhances your access to God. The natural nation of Israel had particular privileges assigned to them by God, which only illustrated the privileges that the chosen, spiritual nation of God's people have over and above those who are not the true, spiritual nation of God. As Paul says in the passage, there are none of these limitations and divisions in the one new man--Jesus Christ.

In Christ, the natural counts for nothing. Natural divisions and distinctions were only an illustration of spiritual truths about the people of God and those who are not the people of God--IOW, the difference between believers, those who belong to God, and unbelievers, those who don't belong to God. It's wrong to try to make the illustration the reality. We are to look at the truth that the natural illustrated.


It seems many are afraid to acknowledge that 'the law' means the law of Moses and go to great lengths to redefine 'law' for fear that it could somehow be used to mean we're still under the letter, and condemnation, of the law of Moses.

There is no need to invent doctrines to defend against something that isn't even true to begin with.

 

[JLB]

It's not about who has to keep the law and who does not. It's about being a Jew and not being a Jew and how that limits or enhances your access to God. The natural nation of Israel had particular privileges assigned to them by God, which only illustrated the privileges that the chosen, spiritual nation of God's people have over and above those who are not the true, spiritual nation of God. As Paul says in the passage, there are none of these limitations and divisions in the one new man--Jesus Christ.

In Christ, the natural counts for nothing. Natural divisions and distinctions were only an illustration of spiritual truths about the people of God and those who are not the people of God--IOW, the difference between believers, those who belong to God, and unbelievers, those who don't belong to God. It's wrong to try to make the illustration the reality. We are to look at the truth that the natural illustrated.


It seems many are afraid to acknowledge that 'the law' means the law of Moses and go to great lengths to redefine 'law' for fear that it could somehow be used to mean we're still under the letter, and condemnation, of the law of Moses.

There is no need to invent doctrines to defend against something that isn't even true to begin with.

The law of Moses was never meant for gentiles.

Gentiles are were not under the law.

Jews were forbidden to marry gentiles.

That is the point I am making.

That is the point we have argued over for over a year.


My point is to Messianic Christians who are Gentiles, and believe and teach that Christians are to keep the law of Moses.

They teach that Christians are not to kindle a fire on the Sabbath, as well as a applicable rules from Moses law.

They teach that Christians are required to be circumcised.

The teach that Christian's are to keep the feasts, and have no yeast in there house of the week of passover.

They teach that Christians are not to eat pork...


My point to them and to you is, Gentiles were never under the law of Moses, how much more now in Christ, who redeemed those who were actually under they law.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5

This is not making up a doctrine that doesn't exist, this is what the new Testament teaches.

Moses law contained in ordinances has been nailed to the cross.

God's law, that was before Moses law, and some of which was seen in Moses law, and is what Abraham kept as that covenat required, is what we are to walk in today.

The main one is to walk before Him and heed His Voice.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace... Ephesians 2:14-15

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The church doesn't need to use a misguided argument that the gentiles were never under the law in order to defend her irrational fear of the law. No people, including even the Jews themselves, are under the letter and condemnation of the law who are in Christ.

That being true, there is no reason to bend over backwards to make 'law' not mean the law of Moses where the New Testament is contextually speaking about the law. (That is what this thread is about, right?)

 

[agua.]

What is your definition of "the Law?" If you mean the TC'S (Law of Moses), only the Hebrew/Jew had to die to it, which is what occurs at rebirth. Mankind is under the curse of "the law of sin," which was incurred to mankind from Adam (Rom 5:12). This law of sin has its force from God's command to Adam that, “thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:17)," and when sin is finished,” which was at the time of his "transgression" (Rom 5:14; Gen 3:6), the curse of the law of sin and death came into effect.

God pronounced the law of sin and death on all mankind in Genesis 2:17. This became the law of sin, which states that "the soul that sins shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). This curse was before the Mosaic Law (Rom 5:13) and was upon mankind. Therefore, in regeneration, the Hebrew/Jew is dead to the Law, and the law of sin, but the Gentile only to the law of sin. The curse of death continues in the body, but in the spirit, the guilt of sin is nullified (Col 2:14), and its dominion (Rom 6:12, 14) restrained, which restraint is commensurate with the believers "conformation."

Galatians 5:16: ". . . and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
JG - “He does not say there shall be no flesh, nor any lust of the flesh in them if they walk spiritually; or that the flesh should not act and operate in them; or that they should do no sinful action; all which is only true of Christ; and the contrary is to be found and observed in all true Christians, though ever so spiritual.

"But that they should not fulfil or perfect the lust of the flesh; should not give up themselves entirely to the power and dictates of the flesh, so as to be under it and at its command, and be obedient servants and slaves unto it; for, in this sense only, such that are spiritual do not, commit sin, they do not make a trade of it, it is not their constant employ or course of conversation.”

The fulfilling of sin, same as bringing sin to completion, or same as "when sin is finished" (Jam 1:15) designs the fact of not being a prisoner or "captive" (Rom 7:23) to it, but rather a willing subject, who does not feel captive against his will. If your desire is to be where sin is, you’re not a captive (from captivated) because it is according to your will and desires.

All are indwelt by sin through the sin nature, but only through regeneration does one become an unwilling subject to it, which is the intention of the word "captive," denoting it’s against one's will. Hence Paul’s, “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (Rom 7:15).

The desire Paul maintains against the sin nature comes from regeneration, a condition which is void in an unbeliever. Romans Eight does not instruct the absence of the sin nature, but the freedom believers have from its condemnation (8:1, 33), and Romans Six from its dominion (6:12, 14). Unbelievers are not captives, but rather willing subjects, as we were before Christ. Thus, sin is in us, but we are not after it, e.g. "in it" (Rom 8:9).


Note: The term "flesh" in the NT in nearly all of its usages refers to the sinful nature ("old man," Adamic nature), not the physical body. Otherwise it would conflict with what Paul said concerning us not being in the flesh.

Hi NetChaplin,

Nice synopsis !

I've recently considered being "under the law" ( as mentioned by Paul ) is the position all unbelievers are in both Gentile and Jew. There were Jews who lived within the constraints of the Mosaic law but weren't "under the law" per se. ie. pre- Christ faithful Jewish believers. This also means pre-Christ believers were under grace. What do you think ?

 

[BigSodaExposer]

...and if a Gentile is converted to Christ, s/he does not have to start living as a Jew, either.

Blessings.

Oh really? In Mathew 5:20 Jesus said "
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
"

What is righteousness? Fearing the Lord and obeying his commandments. (In the old testament anyway). But a Christians righteousness comes from Jesus Christ. The spilling of his blood. And the new covenant/testament he made at the last supper. Believing in him as their lord and savior. No one can be perfect, but Jesus was. Jesus set the bar so high with the thought crimes - 1.looking on a woman with lust 2.thinking harmful thoughts about your brother. (which everyone is guilty of) That now righteousness is impossible to obtain without him. I can see where jews have a problem with this.

John 15:10 Jesus says "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" What did Jesus command? John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Then we have the case of the adulteress that was brought to Jesus by the pharissees. John 8:7-11 "
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

The punishment for adultery in the old testament is to be stripped naked/humiliated in public, then stoned to death, then have your jewels taken (check daughter of zion). Jesus said to go and sin no more. Thats not saying that we get a free pass on adultery. The way I personally took this was like Jesus was a cop. He had the authority, and he gave her a pass. Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a warning.

Why did Jesus do this? Because he was HUMAN. This is echoed in the parable about the farmer who had 100 sheep and lost one and went to look for it leaving the 99 behind. And if he finds the ONE, he will be more happy than the 99 he left behind. This is clearly not logical. As Spock would say on Star Trek "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one" Not logical, but is it IS human.

 

[Chopper]

Oh really? In Mathew 5:20 Jesus said "
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
"

What is righteousness? Fearing the Lord and obeying his commandments. (In the old testament anyway). But a Christians righteousness comes from Jesus Christ. The spilling of his blood. And the new covenant/testament he made at the last supper. Believing in him as their lord and savior. No one can be perfect, but Jesus was. Jesus set the bar so high with the thought crimes - 1.looking on a woman with lust 2.thinking harmful thoughts about your brother. (which everyone is guilty of) That now righteousness is impossible to obtain without him. I can see where jews have a problem with this.

John 15:10 Jesus says "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" What did Jesus command? John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Then we have the case of the adulteress that was brought to Jesus by the pharissees. John 8:7-11 "
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more"

The punishment for adultery in the old testament is to be stripped naked/humiliated in public, then stoned to death, then have your jewels taken (check daughter of zion). Jesus said to go and sin no more. Thats not saying that we get a free pass on adultery. The way I personally took this was like Jesus was a cop. He had the authority, and he gave her a pass. Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a women.

Why did Jesus do this? Because he was HUMAN. This is echoed in the parable about the farmer who had 100 sheep and lost one and went to look for it leaving the 99 behind. And if he finds the ONE, he will be more happy than the 99 he left behind. This is clearly not logical. As Spock would say on Star Trek "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one" Not logical, but is it IS human.

Like the cop that gets you for speeding and lets you off with a women.
Lets you off with a woman?