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“The Law of Sin”
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I know that. When you misrepresent my doctrine I'm forced to pull it back on track in order to comment on it.
Oh, I see. That means you don't have to uphold the law of Moses anymore. (Even though Paul plainly says faith in Christ does.) Typical Protestant thinking.
That is true only if you are trying to be justified by the effort of law keeping and refuse God's offer of forgiveness through Jesus Christ for the times you fail at upholding the requirements of the law (now required in the new way of the Spirit, not removed entirely as is taught in churches today).
Right. There is a new way to satisfy it's requirements*--requirements that did not 'go away' because of Christ's work on the cross, but which get fulfilled, not abolished through that work.
* 'Keep' has the connotation of keeping the literal letter of the law of Moses. That's why I refer to it the way the NT usually does--fulfilling, or upholding the law of Moses. That speaks to the satisfying of the underlying requirements of the law as opposed to keeping the letter of the law. That 'new' versus the 'old' way I've been talking about.
If you mean the law of Moses in regard to worship through the elemental things of this world (food and drink, etc.) then, yes, you are correct. That old way of worship is what was added for a time and then taken out of the way.
Right. We are not under the authority of the law to hold us fast in sin, and are, therefore, released from the condemnation of the law.
Additionally, we are no longer under the old way that the worship and ceremonial and cleanliness requirements were kept by way of the elemental things of this world. Those worship and ceremonial and cleanliness requirements now 'kept' (upheld, satisfied--not nullified) in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.
Write this down:
We are no longer under...
- the authority of the law to keep us bound to sinful flesh and arouse sin in us (Romans 7:5-6 NASB).
- the debt of the law for not having lived up to it and being condemned by the sin that law stirred up within us (Colossians 2:14 NASB).
- the elemental worship of the law (food and drink, etc.--Hebrews 9:10 NASB), you know, that old 'way' of serving. That obligation of worship now satisfied through the new 'way' that obligation is fulfilled--faith in the blood and body of Christ (Hebrews 10:18 NASB).
See note three above.
But that hardly means the Sabbath requirement itself--represented in the type and shadow of Moses--can be violated today. You most certainly will die if you do not enter into God's appointed gospel Rest, guaranteed. Grace does not excuse anyone from that promise of judgment. But the church thinks it does (and grace removing many other requirements of law).
Grace was given so we could 'uphold' that and other requirements (in the new way of faith), not do away with it and others as is popularly taught in the church today.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Of course he did. We know that because the Levitical system and WAY of worship has passed away. Reverse logic says that since much more than just a jot or a tittle has passed away from the law that the fulfillment has occurred.
But of course most in the church understand this as meaning we don't have to uphold the law of Moses anymore in any way, shape, or form, because salvation is so utterly of grace that it doesn't matter if you obey or not, just as long as you believe, having casually dismissed James' teaching that says the faith that does not obey is a faith that can not save a person.
You've ignored my answer to this two times (at least) now. Are you going for a third, now?
Was God lying to Abraham when he said everyone in his household had to be circumcised to be in the covenant? Was God lying to Moses when he said the alien had to be circumcised to keep Passover? You know the answer.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
"...through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20 NASB)
If we did not have the law of Moses this thread would be about all of us debating what sin is. Each of our imaginations and personal strengths and weaknesses being the 'rule' by which we measure sin.
It's interesting that those who know the written word, and those who don't know the written word are condemned by the same sin, yet many in the church refuse to acknowledge that the 'law' in the 'law of sin and death' is in fact the codified definition of sin found in the law of Moses, particularly the Ten Commandments.
Somehow when you don't define sin by making reference to the law of Moses, even though it's the same sin, it's a different 'law' of sin and death.
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Never the less, it is another law.
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:23
It is the law of sin working death in our members as the law of the life in Christ is working life in our inner man.
Neither of which is the law if Moses.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Paul said the law of sin works through the law of Moses to put people to death.
Even those in times past who didn't have knowledge of the law of Moses die according to the same definition of sin that was codified in the Ten Commandments, them showing that they have the requirements of the law written on their hearts.
The law of sin and death has worked all by itself since Adam.
Only the natural descendants of Abraham were under the law of Moses.
Ismael though he was Abrahams son, was not part of that covenant And therefore was not under Moses law, nor were his offspring.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Your argument is not only false, but meaningless, because all of mankind is under the condemnation of the law:
"14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them" (Romans 2:14-15 NASB)
See, even among people who did not have knowledge of the written law Paul did not say a different law is written on their hearts condemning them of the sin that will be judged on the Day of Judgment. But you say it is a different, or another, law. Do we listen to you, or to the words of Paul?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Acknowledging that all people are under the condemnation of the law does not mean they also have to keep a literal Sabbath or some other worship stipulation of the law of Moses (that old outward way of service and worship to God is what got set aside). So we do not need to invent doctrines about who is and isn't under the law, that fly in the face of plain scripture, to protect the church from things of the law that neither Jew nor gentile has to literally keep anyway.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't think Paul is even talking about a specific set of rules when he speaks of the 'law of sin', but rather a principle of sin that rules his body. The law of Moses comes into play in that the definition of the sin in this principle, or law, of sin at work in the flesh is found in the law of Moses, having been written down by God in order to increase sin in mankind and end all legal debate possible about the matter.
But instead, some in the church have turned it into a debate about who is, and who's not under the law. And they do that out of a misguided and unfounded fear that to acknowledge that all men are condemned and judged by the law of Moses must mean we also have to keep the old literal ways of worship and cleanliness found in the law. Good grief! Not even natural Jews have to do that in this New Covenant!
But instead, some in the church have turned it into a debate about who is, and who's not under the law. And they do that out of a misguided and unfounded fear that to acknowledge that all men are condemned and judged by the law of Moses must mean we also have to keep the old literal ways of worship and cleanliness found in the law. Good grief! Not even natural Jews have to do that in this New Covenant!
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when Gentiles who do not have the Law... who do not have the law. They are not under the law!!! ... not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
The things in the law, are the righteous requirements that we are discussing, which are God's commandments do not steal, do not lie, do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not covet, have no other Gods before Me...
The things in the law... Not the whole law of Moses. The commandments which were the laws and commandments and precepts that Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses.
Do you think Paul is referring to these gentiles who do not have the law, as keeping special feast days, or sacrificing animals, or ceremonial washings, or special sabbath rules, CIRCUMCISION?
THE ONE REQUIREMENT IN THE LAW OF MOSES THAT PREDICATED ALL THE OTHERS WAS CIRCUMCISION.
Do you believe that these gentiles who did not have the law, started circumcising themselves?
The things in the law... that are righteous, were righteous before there was a law of Moses.
There is a whole lot more that is considered sin, than just the 10 commandments, or the law of Moses for that matter. Like going where God tells you to go, such as "go to a street called straight"...
Or get out of your house and go to the place that I will show you...
You see Jesus went exactly where His Father told Him to go, and did what His Father told him to do, heal the sick, raise the dead, spit in the dirt and heal this blind man...
Any one of those things that were not obeyed by Jesus is sin.
So when we see gentiles led by the Spirit of God, and manifest the fruit of the Spirit which is love, though they don't have the law or are not under the law, then we know that they are a law unto themselves.
as Paul said -
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
God writes His law on our hearts. His law was in the earth long before Moses was born.
Abraham obeyed His law, 430 years before there was ever anything called the law of Moses.
JLB
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jasoncran
Member
Abraham was given a torah. whom taught him what to offer for worship? what to atone with? its not even mentioned but surely he was taught what to do about sin. he also had to know about sin and also he circumcised as he was taught the idea of a house did include his slaves who were gentiles. that meant abram was to worship and honor god with his whole house. I believe that did pass in nt but well that is off topic and I should go to an elder on that.
Jethro Bodine
Member
He's talking about the gentiles not having knowledge of the law. How do we know this? Because of what gets written on their hearts--things they have not heard:
13 ...for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God (the Jews), but the doers of the Law will be justified.14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law (non Jews-those who have not heard the law) do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law (the law they have not heard) written in their hearts..." (Romans 2:13-15 NASB parenthesis mine)
The things they have not heard, but which then get written on the hearts of those who have not heard the law, is the 'work of the law' you insist in the passage is only for the Jew.
No, I do not think Paul is referring to that. The gentiles don't have knowledge of the law because they don't belong to the people of God. But when a gentile did want to join himself to the people of God--the Israelites--the same worship law applied to them that applied to the Israelite (Numbers 15:14-16 NASB). But you say it is not for gentiles.
But somehow they cease to be the same things when they got codified at Mt. Sinai. And worse yet, now aren't meant for gentiles in that context, but for the Jews alone, even though it is these very things that get written on the hearts of gentiles who have not heard the law of Moses. That doesn't add up.
It is these requirements of the law that Paul is talking about when he says faith upholds the work of the law:
"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)
Nobody's making a defense that somehow the temporary, literal worship laws are what get upheld by believers (Jew or gentile) in this New Covenant, but true to indoctrinated Protestant thinking, that's all that can be heard in the argument. If God writes these things on the hearts of gentiles apart from the knowledge of the law, how is it that they do not get upheld by gentiles in this New Covenant? It just doesn't add up.
"Against such", JLB. These things uphold the law, they do not violate the law...NO law. He's not saying the fruit of the Spirit is lawless. Paul went so far as to say 'love' is the very fulfillment of the law, not a lawless way to live.
But somehow when it gets written down on two stone tablets it ceases to be the eternal law of God that gets upheld by faith in Christ. And, this eternal law of God can't be referred to in any hint of the 'law of Moses', even though that's what Paul does. Weird doctrine.
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God's eternal law that was written on two tablets existed long before Moses law, and long after Moses law vanished away.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why is it impossible to refer to them as the law of Moses? Paul does:
"28...we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 2:31 NASB)
See? The law that can not justify--the law of Moses--is the law that is not nullified by faith, and is upheld by faith.
And before you go there...we know he's not talking about the literal worship laws because those are clearly taught in Hebrews as 'laid aside' for the New Covenant believer.
And before you go here...we know he's talking to both Jew and gentile because all of the teaching about the laying aside of the worship laws applies to Jews too. So what's left for the Jew to be upholding that the gentile does not?
Gentile who don't have the law and are without the law and are not under the law.
Read the context Jethro,
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Romans 2:12,14
Your doctrine that obligates gentiles to be under the law has no scriptural basis, and is false.
Gentiles were considered without the law of Moses, but under the law of God.
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
1 Corinthians 9:19-21
You will get no where with Christians by trying to teach them they are obligated to be under moses law.
The message that God has given you will fall on deaf ears and you will be ineffective.
If you want to discuss and find common ground as to how Christians are to be obedient to God's law, and to obey His Voice and be led by His spirit, then we can expect to have god's blessing.
However this nonsense of obligating the church to be under the law of Moses is wasting time and producing nothing.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The bottom line is, JLB, if Paul can refer to what gets upheld in this New Covenant as the law of Moses, so can I, and so can you.
So the church can put aside this irrational, uneducated fear that acknowledging this is somehow suggesting that we have to keep a (gasp!) literal Sabbath (or something in the law equally unpleasant to the spoiled Western mentality) or acknowledging this would be equivalent to thinking salvation is by works.
So the church can put aside this irrational, uneducated fear that acknowledging this is somehow suggesting that we have to keep a (gasp!) literal Sabbath (or something in the law equally unpleasant to the spoiled Western mentality) or acknowledging this would be equivalent to thinking salvation is by works.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Christians are not under the law of Moses. But you can't understand the argument because you don't know what it is about the law of Moses that we are not under. You can only think in terms of doing the requirements of the law when you hear the phrase 'under the law'. That's why you resist the argument. You're another victim of the churches misguided indoctrination about the law.
There are some who will hear. I am one of them myself. I used to resist much of this message, too. But I'm too honest to keep ignoring plain words of scripture anymore and filtering it through the doctrines of the church, instead of the other way around. I'm not going to do it anymore.
You simply do not know what the Bible means when it says we are not 'under the law'. The context of where that phrase is used hardly means we are not under the righteous requirements of the law anymore. Show me where not being under the law anymore means we do not have to uphold the righteousness of the law anymore. Show me.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I explained the passage to you. You are the one ignoring the context. It's about those who 'hear 'the law (and take false confidence in that--the Jews), and those who actually 'do' the law, even gentiles who haven't heard the law but have it written on their hearts nevertheless. Prove this interpretation is wrong.
Then filter Numbers 15 through your doctrine for us so as to make it not mean the same law applied to the gentile. Then no one will think that they might have to keep a literal Sabbath, or that any and every acknowledgement of law means you think justification is by works (the fears that drive this misguided doctrine about the law in the church), though it's clear in the Bible that neither is true anyway.
JLB, it's wrong to develop, and defend, a doctrine that changes the plain words of scripture to guard an understanding of law that isn't even true in the first place. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not sure you do. If you did you would not be going to such great lengths to make your point that the gentiles within the people of God did not have to keep the law the way the Jews themselves did. You're grasping at an argument that is not even necessary to make to somehow prove that Paul is not saying gentiles uphold the works of the law in this New Covenant by faith in Christ.
Explain how it is that there are unbelieving gentiles that live in conformance to the law of Moses that Paul would have to act as if they are? Obviously, he's saying he's going to act like someone who isn't following the law who is not following the law. How does that mean the law is not for gentiles in any way, shape, or form? That's not a reasonable conclusion to come to.
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