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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Unfortunately this says nothing of trusting in the Lord, when being tested.
“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-4
Why do you keep referring to "works"?
I haven't mentioned "works".
We are discussing faith, and faith being tested, not works.
JLB
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36
Did these servants whom Jesus said were blessed and were welcomed into His kingdom, have a "works based salvation"?
‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
- for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
- I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
- I was a stranger and you took Me in;
- I was naked and you clothed Me;
- I was sick and you visited Me;
- I was in prison and you came to Me.’
As opposed to these servants who were not blessed, because they did not do anything:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-46
Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
- for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
- I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
- I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
- naked and you did not clothe Me,
- sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
You claim these servants in verse's 41-46 had a "works based" salvation, but there in verse's 41-46 were condemned because they did not have any works?
The ones in verse's 34-36 are the one's who had the works and were blessed.
This is just the opposite of your unbiblical claim.
JLB
Douglas Summers
Member
JLB, There is a difference between the CINO and a born again believer. The CINO (Christian in name only) was never rooted in the Faith, and therefore can depart from it. The born again believer has planted it's roots in the fertile soil (born again). Same as the born again believer stands upon the Rock (Christ crucified and resurrected) This is real faith. Luke 8:9-18; Matt. 16:17-18. They departed from the faith they heard, not the faith they trusted in. (2 Pet. 2:19-25)
Jethro Bodine
Member
I won't let you evade the point.
Hyper-grace OSAS turns God's grace into a license to indulge sin with impunity in regard to justification/salvation. The thinking being that since a person has been justified by faith in Christ that gives them the license to then indulge sin and deny Christ with impunity regarding the justification they had received. Jude talks about that here:
"4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)
If hyper-grace OSAS does not turn the grace of God into a license to sin, what does , freegrace, what does? And just so you know what license is...
li·cen·tious
(lī-sĕn′shəs)
adj.
1. Lacking moral restraint, especially in sexual conduct.
2. Archaic Ignoring accepted rules or standards, as of prescriptive grammar.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/licentiousness
You say believers can return to an unbelieving, Christ denying life of wanton sin and they will not lose their justification because God's grace is irrevocable in regard to the individual believer's justification. How is that not making God's grace a license to do that????? (lī-sĕn′shəs)
adj.
1. Lacking moral restraint, especially in sexual conduct.
2. Archaic Ignoring accepted rules or standards, as of prescriptive grammar.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/licentiousness
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Christ did not die for the sin of unrepentant blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (calling the Holy Spirit a liar). He did not die for the sin of a person refusing to repent of the sin of rejecting the message of the gospel. That's the one thing Christ's blood can not, and does not cover.
When a person turns away from God into unbelief and does not come back, they have gone to the place where God's grace can not reach them. To say God's grace does go there to the unrepentant unbeliever/ former believer is to do exactly what Jude says ungodly, condemned people do--they "turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude1:4NASB)
You can deny what Jude says all day long (which you surely will), but when you say a person can return to a willful, wanton life of sin and unbelief you are turning the grace of God into a license to do so. Jude explains the outcome of the person who does that.
I'm writing this for those who can still be free of this damnable heresy presently gripping the Protestant church. Repent of this horrible hyper-grace doctrine while you still can.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I showed you using the passage itself what the gifts and calling of God being irrevocable means (Romans 11:28-29 NASB). And it does not mean someone who has believed can never ever lose their justification. Paul himself says it means God has not stopped calling and gifting people from among the Jews even though they as a nation have been cut out of the tree because of unbelief. And he did that because of his promise to the Patriarchal fathers:
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHOHAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."
(Romans 11:1-36 NASB capitals and italics in original)
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."
(Romans 11:1-36 NASB capitals and italics in original)
ezra
Member
i myself have no idea what hyper grace is. i know what saved by grace through faith is . my self i tend lean toward osas but a person who professes to be saved. still lives in the old nature chances are they was never saved. many of the pastor who teach osas will also teach it is not a license to sin, on my part i have never taught or preached can or can not . i preach a know so salvation and we can be secure in our salvation. many of these arguments are man made arguments . the Bible does teach he is able to keep us from falling ----
Jude 24-25King James Version (KJV)
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
as peter wrote it is kept by the power of GOD. so there is just a couple scriptures i bank from. 1 John 3:9 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, becauseGod’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning,because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.…
Jethro Bodine
Member
Us old school folk need to be aware of this heresy sweeping through the young people of the church today.
We get locked away in our traditional denominational parts of the church and we don't easily get exposed to the winds of doctrine that they get exposed to (part of the reason why I am totally against breaking up the church into age groups). I shared in my Wednesday night group of how people are teaching that you can literally go back to unbelief and you are still saved. They were shocked that such a ridiculous doctrine was in the church. And I get how they can not know what's going on in the church. We all just tend to stay within groups that uphold our own doctrinal beliefs and we don't know what others are being exposed to.
And that traditional form of OSAS I can respect. At least it defends the necessity to be believing God in order to saved on the Day of Wrath.
I know that. But that's what distinguishes traditional OSAS from hyper-grace OSAS. Hyper-grace OSAS does say grace allows you to sin wantonly and flagrantly in unbelief and you are still saved, no matter what. It's so absurd I'm amazed this doctrine is even in the church, but as Jude points out, people secretly slip into the church with that doctrine:
"4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4 NIV bold mine)
And they slip in with good folk like me and you being unawares of what they are doing. That's why I make sure to talk about this in these forums. I want others to know the absurdity of this doctrine sweeping through our young people in the church today.
I do too. When you believe in Christ you know without a doubt that you are secure in Christ. It's not even up for debate. It's when you venture outside of faith in Christ that you lose the security and sureness of Christ.
Non-OSAS is in total agreement with this. That's what faith is ALL about. It's knowing without a doubt that God has what you need so you won't fall out of grace, and therefore, you use it. But hyper-grace says you can stop having faith in God's power to keep you and you still have that power--even though you don't believe in that power or what it can gain for you, and therefore, you don't utilize it so that you are kept safe.
...'through faith', Peter says. But hyper-grace doctrine says the 'through faith' part is not necessary, and that you are also kept by the power of God without faith.
Hyper-grace doctrine says this is NOT true, and that the person "who practices sin", and "who does not practice righteousness" is also saved just as long as they 'had' faith somewhere in their past. But it's clear to me and you that John says the practice of righteousness and the practice of sinning is what distinguishes the child of God from the child of the devil. Not so in hyper-grace doctrine.
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chessman
Member
Jude says these certain persons marked long beforehand for condemnation did not have the Spirit. Are you saying they did have The Spirit?
Jude 1:19 (LEB) These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly, not having the Spirit.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't think the passage specifies if they ever had the Spirit. But I think it's clear that the people Jude is speaking about who share the damnable message of 'license to sin' do not have the Spirit.
But perhaps you can share how that does not change the fact that the message they preach is damnable. Is the very same message now NOT damnable if someone who has the Spirit, or had the Spirit preaches it? Of course not.
I'm convinced that people who started out with the Spirit can, and have slipped into believing this damnable hyper-grace OSAS doctrine. But those who hear and obey God's call to reject this doctrine can be saved. Those who persist in it and resist the voice of truth will eventually lose the Spirit and be turned over to what they desire to believe and will indeed become the people without the Spirit that Jude says teach grace as a license to sin. I personally believe that I have talked to hyper-grace people who have lost the chance to come back to the truth. The inability to see and hear the plain words of the Bible concerning this matter, in spite of it being repeatedly shown them, is what clues me in to that. Because that's what happens to people who consistently reject and resist the truth of God. They lose even the truth they did have and are turned over to the lie.
ezra
Member
i know the Bible well enough to know when a red flag is to be raised. i have yet to ever hear this hyper grace taught or preached any person {allows you to sin wantonly and flagrantly in unbelief and you are still saved, no matter what. } that is a dividing line i have good friend that is independent fundamentalist baptist. he will tell you that it is not a license to sin. but on the other hand he believes if one falls away they are still saved. my self i am about 50/50 on this.
my understanding the original osas doctrine was if you fall away and never make any attempt of repenting no Godly sorrow that brings repentance . you was never saved i guess i tend lean toward what calvinist teach p.o.s preservation of the saints . i am ordained through the general baptist .
but i dare some man tell me what i have to believe to be part of a group. POS is basically those truly saved will stay with it. i told the Church i attend some time back i stand very firm on 1 john 1:9 . i have studied this issue for years my conclusion is. i have no plans on going back. all though past few months of fiery trials . i thought about it. but i would get my 2nd wind and go back into the fight.
i will be first to tell ya i am hard headed and seldom back down from a belief i studied out.
in fact my views are mine not what man told me. yes i am old school i cut my teeth under sound doctrine . every minister i have sat under evang or preacher has put it straight on. i am a straight shooter . i been in the ministry close to 17 years officially so to speak...i told a evangelist i had known i took the call to preach. he said i had been doing it for a while
Jethro Bodine
Member
It's been happening right under our noses right here in this thread.
I went searching for an article that would help you and others understand the hyper-grace movement: http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/spiritual-growth/18158-8-signs-of-hypergrace-churches
Here's an excerpt (bold and underline mine):
"For centuries the body of Christ has wrestled with something called antinomianism (anti means "against"; nomos means "law"). This is the belief that the moral law of the Old Testament has been done away with and that, once we are in Christ, there is free grace in which we can almost live any way we want since we are not under the Law but under grace. Thus, according to this view, the Old Testament is not that important to read except for metaphors, types and symbols regarding the coming of Christ. The New Testament is all about grace and does away with the Old Testament Law!
Of course, Paul the apostle warned against this sort of thing in Romans 6:1-2 when he rhetorically asked, Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? His response: God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in it?
The first thing Jude the apostle says in his epistle (in the context of contending for the faith in verse 3) is that ungodly men amongst them were turning the grace of our God into a license to sin. Evidently these free-grace preachers were twisting the Scriptures by teaching that "we are no longer under the Law" means "we are no longer under any obligation to obey the moral law of God once we are saved."
What's 'new' about this age old argument is how it is being pushed in the many mega-church venues that are drawing the world into the church. It's not a fringe movement anymore. It's slowly but surely devouring the Protestant church. Old timers like me and you who know the truth will fade away and the multitudes of people in these younger generations of people 'saved' by these hyper-grace mega-church ministries are the ones who will be representing this erroneous gospel in the future in place of the true gospel. They will use all the glitz and glamour and longing for fame and fortune of the world they themselves got 'saved' through to carry on this damnable gospel of 'free grace' (see article above). Except they will do it in an exponentially bigger way than it was done for them.Of course, Paul the apostle warned against this sort of thing in Romans 6:1-2 when he rhetorically asked, Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? His response: God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in it?
The first thing Jude the apostle says in his epistle (in the context of contending for the faith in verse 3) is that ungodly men amongst them were turning the grace of our God into a license to sin. Evidently these free-grace preachers were twisting the Scriptures by teaching that "we are no longer under the Law" means "we are no longer under any obligation to obey the moral law of God once we are saved."
I'm not a prophet, but I think this is the final leavening of the body of Christ before His return. As much as I and others sound the alarm, it will succeed in destroying the visible church. So it's a matter of saving individuals from this heresy and accepting the fact that the masses will be destroyed by it. Individuals who don't buy into it, and those who repent of it will be saved. They will be our reward in heaven for our labor in the building and field of God for warning them about it.
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Why assume that God's own children cannot be disobedient enemies of Him? Jesus showed from the parable of the prodigal that they can be.
In Jesus' day, for a Jewish son to ask for his inheritance before the father died, was considered the height of arrogance and disdain for his father. By doing so showed the son to be an enemy of his father.
Your claim reveals just how much you don't understand what context even is. Everything that Paul described as a gift from God in the letter to the Romans IS INCLUDED in what he meant in 11:29.
Glad when one is able to distinguish between singular and plural issues. However, since Paul described THREE gifts that are from God, it is quite obvious that 11:29 would refer to at least all of them.
And there STILL hasn't been given any evidence, much less proof, that "death" here is eternal, or that one who HAS eternal life can lose it.
So, what you've pointed out is pointless. For that fact. Credibility is built on evidence. Not opinions.
Humanity is physically born spiritually dead. That's how we start out. Those who believe in Christ are given eternal life. Not probationary eternal life, or some other equally silly term. And 11:29 tells us that God's gifts (one of them being eternal life) are irrevocable.
And there STILL hasn't been given any evidence, much less proof, that a believer can be UN-done from union in Christ, which is your claimed opinion. So again, your point is pointless. For that fact. Credibility is built on evidence. Not opinions.
Your misunderstanding of John 15:6 doesn't help your position in any way. The passage is about fruit production, which demands fellowship with Christ. It has nothing to do with staying saved or losing salvation.
As I pointed out, this is about fruit production, not about how to lose salvation.
It doesn't, beause the passage isn't about losing eternal life. It's about fruit production. Which requires fellowship with God.
Are you familiar with what lack of fellowship with God looks like? Grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.
When believers grieve/quench the Holy Spirit, they are like non-fruit bearing branches and are disciplined, which is the meaning of "fire" in John 15.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You and me both, bro. But we are from the non-computer age and know what it's like to deal with sin that isn't begging for us to indulge it at the mere press of a button. We've learned our battle with sin before computers made it readily available right under our finger tips. But imagine what it's like for these later generations of people who have lived their whole lives seeing things that I have yet, even as an adult, to see with my eyes. A 'free grace' gospel that doesn't include righteous living through faith in Christ is feeding right into their condition. Hyper-grace caters exactly to their state in life. It makes it so they can have both, the worldly lusts they love and have been addicted to from early childhood, and salvation in Christ.
There it is, plain and clear what the testing of our faith is for. Unlike your opinion of how to receive salvation, it is to produce PATIENCE.
Now, IF your opinion was correct, James would have used the word "salvation" instead of "patience". But as we can all see, the word he used is clearly not the word you think should have been used.
Once again, your own verses refute your opinions.
Please point out the exact verse that teaches that one is tested before they receive salvation, because I don't see that teaching anywhere in these verses, much LESS anywhere in Scripture.
I continue to be amazed at your position that has no Scripture to support it.