1John 3:9 What does it mean?

[bcbsr]

1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measurable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God.

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

 

[Deborah13]

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin.

Characteristics of.....

The born of God:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Those not born of God:
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If one is born of God, they recognize that they are a sinner and they repent and keep repenting.
If one is born of God, they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. How can one with the Holy Spirit look upon the righteousness of our Lord and not know they are not righteous in their acts, thoughts, etc.? That is impossible for one that is born of God.

The one who is not born of God, does not recognize that they have sinned against God, and are not repentant. They may live a licentious lifestyle, without conscience. When the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, they harden their hearts.

imo....
That does not change the fact, that there are those who, even though they have been born of God, may face huge struggles in their lives to overcome addictions/habits, both physical and mental. Neither does it change the fact there are people who may backslide for a time, but have not rejected their Redeemer. Only God knows for sure if someone is one of these.

 

[JLB]

If one is born of God, they recognize that they are a sinner and they repent and keep repenting.

Are you saying AFTER one is born again, then they recognize they are a sinner?


JLB

 

[childeye]

God is Love/empathy. Love is doing unto others what you would want done to you. Sin is doing unto others what you would not want done to you. Therefore anyone who sins voluntarily are of the mindset of do it to them before they do it to you. They don't possess a conviction of faith in Love, nor do they know Love is God. 1 John 4:8. 1 John 4:5. It is a blindness of ignorance of God as opposed to the Light of the knowledge of God.

Hence a man when born of God through faith in Christ cannot desire to sin/hurt others. For God's seed remains in them. That is that the Spirit of the Christ, Who is the expression of the divine Love that is Eternal, is living within us in the presence of The Holy Spirit and strengthening our conviction. 1 John 4:13. This Spirit is the same Spirit that displays the willingness to die for our sins in our stead. 1 John 4:16.1 John 4:10. Which in turn means the faithful will prefer to die in servitude to others even returning good for evil. The fear of death is therefore powerless over the believer in Christ, since they are already believing they will inherit eternal Life through the faith that God/Love/Empathy is Eternal. 1 John 4:8. 1 John 4:4. The blind or unfaithful will inevitably try to save themselves by betraying others.

 

[childeye]

Are you saying AFTER one is born again, then they recognize they are a sinner?


JLB

When I read Deborah13, I think she means the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin we would otherwise justify or not see.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you saying AFTER one is born again, then they recognize they are a sinner?


JLB

No, but it is after the Holy Spirit convicts.
Joh 16:7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
Joh 16:8 and having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in me;

 

[Deborah13]

When I read Deborah13, I think she means the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin we would otherwise justify.

 

[TheBarrd]

I think we can find the answer in an ancient prophesy:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Notice what God did not say. He did not say that He would abolish His law. Far from it. What He said is:
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost, when God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within His children. He has put His law in our inward parts, and written it in our hearts...thus, when we sin, we are convicted in our hearts and we turn from that sin.

 

[childeye]

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost, when God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within His children. He has put His law in our inward parts, and written it in our hearts...thus, when we sin, we are convicted in our hearts and we turn from that sin.

What you say in bold above is the crux accomplished through the Christ. However, the abolishing or not aboishing of the law is a source of semantic confusion. Still I get your valid point.

 

[TheBarrd]

What you say in bold above is the crux accomplished through the Christ. However, the abolishing or not aboishing of the law is a source of semantic confusion. Still I get your valid point.

Please explain what you mean by "semantic confusion"? You have caught my interest...
I

 

[childeye]

Please explain what you mean by "semantic confusion"? You have caught my interest...
I

It would require a long post to explore and explain the how and why there is semantic confusion in our languages. I have read some of your posts and you do a good job of avoiding such confusion. But in this particular case you have invited the obvious repercussions from those who would argue that the New Testament puts to death the Old Testament nailing it to the cross, even because the Old Testament is a shadow of the New. Colossians 2:14. But I see nothing wrong with your commentary since Love fulfills the intent of the law.

Semantics occur because there are two or more subjective perspectives of a single event. It gets deeper when the sentiments of the various connotations reveal how one perceives God. In this case you could be mistaken to mean that we are still under the law. It would be helpful to qualify what not abolishing the law means, without negating what being under grace means. Romans 6:14.

 

[TheBarrd]

It would require a long post to explore and explain the how and why there is semantic confusion in our languages. I have read some of your posts and you do a good job of avoiding such confusion. But in this particular case you have invited the obvious repercussions from those who would argue that the New Testament puts to death the Old Testament nailing it to the cross, even because the Old Testament is a shadow of the New. Colossians 2:14. But I see nothing wrong with your commentary since Love fulfills the intent of the law.

Semantics occur because there are two or more subjective perspectives of a single event. It gets deeper when the sentiments of the various connotations reveal how one perceives God. In this case you could be mistaken to mean that we are still under the law. It would be helpful to qualify what not abolishing the law means, without negating what being under grace means. Romans 6:14.

I believe with all of my being that God's laws, and particularly the Ten Commandments, are still in force, and applicable to Christians. However, I also believe that we are, as you say, "under grace."
Some folks confuse this to mean that the law has been abolished, or as you say, "nailed to the cross"...far from it. What has happened is that it has been made a part of our very being...if it is "nailed" to anything, it is "nailed to our hearts"...

 

[childeye]

I believe with all of my being that God's laws, and particularly the Ten Commandments, are still in force, and applicable to Christians. However, I also believe that we are, as you say, "under grace."
Some folks confuse this to mean that the law has been abolished, or as you say, "nailed to the cross"...far from it. What has happened is that it has been made a part of our very being...if it is "nailed" to anything, it is "nailed to our hearts"...

Yes I understand you, but the semantic confusion is still unaddressed. Respectfully, the issue is not framed well in whether the law is still in force or not. Because in one sense it is, and in another it isn't. It is still wrong to steal, but that means nothing to a Christian whose mind is set on charity. The issue is better framed as the difference between the Oldness of the letter of the law and the Newness of the Spirit of the law, which is why I liked your post. One is written on tablets of stone and the other on the heart. Hence there are two different presentations of the law with two forms of righteousness.

This is how I would say it. That since the letter kills and the Spirit gives Life, then obtaining righteousness by grace through faith transcends trying to be righteous through the written commandment. 2 Corinthians 3:6. Romans 8:2. I am derailing this thread. Perhaps I should not have mentioned it.

 

[TheBarrd]

No one will ever be righteous by trying to be. In fact, I'd say the harder one tries, the more likely he is to fail.
However, it is wrong to think that, since we are "under grace" the law no longer has any hold over us.
You are right, the letter kills....but the Spirit gives life. And that life is in God.

 

[JLB]

No, but it is after the Holy Spirit convicts.
Joh 16:7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
Joh 16:8 and having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in me;

Ok.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit convicts a lost sinner of sin, so that they will be born again?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Characteristics of.....

The born of God:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Those not born of God:
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Could I clarify something in your post here?

Are you saying verse 10 refers to lost sinners?

Please help me to understand what you are saying here.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.1 John 1:6-10


JLB

 

[childeye]

No one will ever be righteous by trying to be. In fact, I'd say the harder one tries, the more likely he is to fail.

Exactly. This statement is the epitome of what much scripture expounds upon. This is why we need God, Who is the Spirit of our righteousness.

However, it is wrong to think that, since we are "under grace" the law no longer has any hold over us.

Here however, again there is semantic confusion. If I'm correct your concern is that to say the law has no hold over us is like saying it's not written on our hearts. However when someone else says the law has no hold over us, their concern is that we do not become in bondage to the letter. My advice is that you should qualify the term 'law,' so as to draw a distinction between the law written on the heart from the law written in the letter so as to avoid the confusion. I hate to be a stickler about this, but Satan was the one with the power of death through the written law.
Matthew 21:38-39King James Version (KJV)
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Revelation 12:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Galatians 4:7-10King James Version (KJV)
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:14-15King James Version (KJV)
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Hebrews 2:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[JLB]

No one will ever be righteous by trying to be.

No, not trying to be righteousness... practicing righteousness, which is doing what the Spirit leads us to do.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

By our act of obeying the Gospel, we are accounted with righteousness.

All things have become new, we are born again, and we are now citizens of God's kingdom, because of what Jesus did on the cross for us.

We are now reconciled to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Now begins our walk in the new righteous life we have been freely given, through Jesus Christ, by the grace of God, through faith.

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18


However, we still have a freewill, and a choice...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


....obey sin leading to death.

or

...obedience leading to righteousness.


13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13


Only people who practice righteousness are righteous, just as He is righteous.


JLB

 

[childeye]

However, we still have a freewill, and a choice...

Semantics. A freewill? Free of what? If God be thanked that we were once slaves of sin yet we have now obeyed from the heart that doctrine unto righteousness, then God deserves the thanks. What we did is believe what was true. I think the power of the Truth has everything to do with that.

I have this discussion often. When it comes to morality the whole lesson of 1 John 3:9-10, is that our will is not free but predicated on what Spirit lives within us through faith and unfaith, through knowing God or not knowing God. The mind conflates the presence of an option as a form of freedom of the will. Hence there is the power of temptation because we like the thought of our freedom. Every time we consider an option to the True God, we are considering that He is not True. That is Satan and his devices. 2 Corinthians 11:3.

 

[JLB]

Semantics. A freewill? Free of what? If God be thanked that we were once slaves of sin yet we have now obeyed from the heart that doctrine unto righteousness, then God deserves the thanks. What we did is believe what was true. I think the power of the Truth has everything to do with that.

I have this discussion often. When it comes to morality the whole lesson of 1 John 3:9-10, is that our will is not free but predicated on what Spirit lives within us through faith and unfaith, through knowing God or not knowing God. The mind conflates the presence of an option as a form of freedom of the will. Hence there is the power of temptation because we like the thought of our freedom. Every time we consider an option to the True God, we are considering that He is not True. That is Satan and his devices. 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

...you present yourselves... you have a choice to present yourself as a slave to obey sin... or of obedience leading to righteousness?

No semantics to it.


JLB