2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

Discussion in 'Theology' started by FreeGrace, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. chessman

    chessman Member

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    You didn't answer⬆

    I do not believe those who do not have faith in Christ, loved His appearing.

    Paul tells Timothy in this pasage:

    2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

    Prior to his death, Paul "kept the faith" and "finished the course" and "fought the good fight".

    What did Paul tell Timothy it was to "fight the good fight"? Please answer this question.

    No.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  2. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Christian:
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    I've already done that, and am quite happy to do it again.
    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
    Eph 1
    4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    So, on the basis of "when you believed" (aorist tense - a point in time) "you were included IN CHRIST", and "marked IN HIM with a seal, that being "the promised Holy Spirit". And this sealing with the Holy Spirit "is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession". 4:30 makes very clear WHY those "having believed" are sealed: for the day of redemption.

    So, to answer your challenge, the burden is really on your view; that one "having believed" CAN be unsealed.

    One would have to reject the meaning of GUARANTEE in order to hold to the notion that any believer can be unsealed.
     
  3. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    There is no point in avoiding the aorist tense and what that means: "having believed".

    The proof is quite available for those who have opened their eyes.

    This opinion is not supported by Scripture. The sealing with the promised Holy Spirit is guaranteed for those "having believed".

    The aorist tense continues (present tense) refutes the notion that that one can be unsealed or unsaved.

    I agree. No problem.
     
  4. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    I said this;
    "Impossible, because the Bible GUARANTEES the day of redemption for "having believed". And being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit as God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14"
    Why bother including my post and then totally avoiding it?

    Your question is immaterial, because your default view that "fire" refers to hell. When, in fact, "fire" is frequently used for God's discipline.

    1 Cor 3:14,15 prove that fact.
    14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
    15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    Here is another text that demonstrates eternal security. EVEN if the works of a believer is burned up, "YET THEY WILL BE SAVED". So being "burned up" in v.15a cannot refer to hell because the believer is said to be saved. And the "flames" of v.15b also cannot be a reference to hell, even though "flames" means 'fire'.

    Eph 1:13,14 refutes the second point. In fact, "having believed", one is GUARANTEED the day of redemption and being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit.

    Because this sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption, it is impossible for anyone "having believed" to be "removed from Him".

    If that were possible, then Eph 1:14 would be a lie.
     
  5. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Sure they did:

    Hebrews 9:19-20 (NASB) For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,
    “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” ...
    Leviticus 14:20 The priest shall offer up the burnt offering and the grain offering on the altar. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be clean.
    What they didn't do, however, is "take away" sins. Only Christ's sacrifice "takes away" sins. Animal sacrifices merely cleaned them over and over again.

    Hebrews 10:4 (NASB) For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
     
  6. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    The point is that Lev 14:20 speaks of being only "ceremonially clean". Not really clean.

    Here are the OT verses on being ceremonially clean:
    Lebv 4:12, 6:11, 7:19, 10:14, 12:7, 14:8, 15:28, Num 8:6, 9:13, 18:11, 13, 19:9, 18, 2 Chron 30:17, Ezra 6:12, and Isa 66:20. And Paul notes that he was "ceremonially clean" in Acts 24:18.

    Amen!

    I think the point is that the Law only provided ceremonial cleanness. That's why it was repeated "endlessly year after year".

    Heb 10:1 - The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
     
  7. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Bingo! Now we're talking.

    'Really clean', Biblically speaking, is to have your sins "taken away" by 'really', not ceremonially, having faith in Christ (Messiah).

    Back to Heb 6:
    Hebrews 6:1 (NASB) Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

    To a Hebrew, what's repentance from dead works?
     
  8. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    It doesn't matter what Isa. 55:7 says. Paul is not saying anything about the wicked returning to the LORD.

    He says God's mercy does not depend on man's will or his efforts. It depends on his call. So choice is out. Your choice doesn't matter to God.

    Romans 9:15
    For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
    Romans 9:16
    So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
    Romans 9:18
    So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

    You said there are NO verses in the Bible about being elected for salvation, so I said, "Re. the saints, Paul said, 'God chose you from the beginning to be saved. 2 Thess. 2:13 It says, 'God chose you from the beginning to be saved'. He is speaking of election.

    We know how people are saved. So again you are introducing a red herring.

    Guess what! Another red herring.

    I don't think there are any verses that say God chooses who will believe. He already knows who believe and who do not believe. "for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every plan and thought." 1 Chron. 28:9
     
  9. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    Brother,
    There is a rule in Hermeneutics that cannot, ever, be bypassed. It is; No scripture, collection of scripture nor passage of scripture can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it.

    FYI: The Bible is the book or scrolls Jesus, Paul, and the other disciples taught from or the first 39 books of the Christian Bible. The following 27 books misnamed the New Testament are rightfully included in the Christian Version of the Bible because they, like the previous 39 are God spoken/authored and they are the only known God authored Life Application Commentaries of the Bible Jesus taught from.

    Now the problem with your outlook on Predestination. You have not considered all of scripture to have reached this old, old, Baptist position that is so in error but is widely held. I am a Southern Baptist that, because of the late stage of my MS can never take the pulpit again but we must never forget that rule of Hermeneutics. And since Jesus has authored every word of the Christian Bible, we must also, in our study of the Hermeneutics of the scriptures remember that the Bible we hold in our hands is in all essence from, "In the beginning..." through the very last word of Revelation 22 is of one context and with a single message, Salvation.

    With all of that said, Predestination; To understand the predestination spoken of in the Word of God we must go back to before what we know as the beginning, beyond the Creation of the world, the animals and of the creation of man. God created every bit of the Universe we live in. (Genesis 1-3 and John 1:1-5) God also created this Space/Time Continuum we live in! This places God outside of that Continuum in the very Beginning.

    There are two attributes of God taught in the scriptures that are essential for understanding; 1. God is Omnipotent and 2. God is Omniscient. The first means there is nothing God cannot do if it is His will to do it and the second means God is present no matter where we go!

    In dealing with this it can be hard to wrap the head around but before God created this Time/Space Continuum, He was only found outside of it giving Time no bearing on Him. As such God could write the Book of Life, Predestination, because, though He is here, He is also, right now, in the past and He is also, right this second, in the future and has always been.

    It makes the head want to scream, "NO!" But if we remember Those two key elements of God's Character, His Being, it can be no other way because the Perfect Will of God is that none should perish but should come to repentance and to live forever, in Fellowship with Him. (2Pet 3:9)
     
  10. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Your going to have to do better than: the bible can't possibly mean what is so plainly says.

    If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

    What happens to a branch that is thrown into the fire and burned?

    • Now if Jesus was talking about Gold, going into a smelting pot to be purified, whereby the dross is purged off the top until the gold is purified, then removed from the fire, to be used for some grand purpose, then we would understand then meaning He intended.

    But
    that is not what Jesus is saying here in John 15.

    He said the branch withers and is thrown into the fire and burned, so the meaning is clear.

    Here is another example, of Jesus describing this very thing:

    39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:39-43



    That is what Jesus said, about those who do not remain joined to Him, as a branch is joined to the vine from which it receives it's life, they wither and they gather them up, and they thrown them into the fire and are burned.


    • Matthew 13:40: are gathered and burned in the fire
    • John 15:6: they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


    JLB
     
  11. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Glad you admitted that the "work" is people.

    The end result of those in 1 Corinthians 3, shows what happens:

    15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
    17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
    1 Corinthians 3;15-17

    • If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

    Thanks for making my point. :wave



    JLB
     
  12. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Just like you do not believe, those who depart from the faith, are departing from faith in God's creation, rather than faith in Christ.

    What you don't believe, doesn't change what the bible plainly says.

    Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
    1 Timothy 4:1

    The faith mentioned here in this verse, refers to departing from faith in Christ, which is departing from God.

    To keep the faith, and thereby finish his course in this life.

    Keeping the faith in Christ, despite persecution, is required for salvation, remember?

    You yourself, believe and have taught that those of the "stony" ground were not saved, even though they "believed" for a while.


    I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:1-8


    I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day...


    The end result of fighting the good fight, and keeping the faith, is to be declared righteous on the Day of judgement.

    Those who do not have faith in Christ, with not be righteous, as they have no sacrifice for sins, and are unrighteous.

    Here are Jesus' words on that Day of judgement:

    And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


    The bible clearly teaches us the unrighteous will receive God's wrath, and not inherit the kingdom of God.

    5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

    • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    • I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day.

    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10


    7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


    Examine the language closely, and you will see the unmistakable language of faith [OVERCOME], and those who "keep the faith" [faith working by love] and those who do not.


    • For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 1 John 5:4
    • Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5



    JLB
     
  13. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Wrong. It is a violation of the rules to state what another member believes.

    Yep. Paul finished the race and fought the good fight prior to the Day. In fact, prior to his death, he finished the race.

    Once again your case is left weak because you don't answer relevant questions. Rather, you break the rules of this debate forum.

    Here:

    1 Timothy 6:12 (NASB) Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

    To fight the good fight is to take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

    Which is fought prior to the Day of Judgement. Some people simply do not take hold of eternal life in this life.
     
  14. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
    1 Timothy 4:1-5

    I have stated that "the faith" is a reference to faith in Christ.


    You have denied this over and over, and said 1 Timothy 4:1 does not refer to the faith in Christ, but rather you said it refers to faith in what God made.

    That is faith in God's creation.

    There are two choices in this matter:
    1. Faith in Christ Jesus.
    2. Faith is anything else, which is what He created.


    So which is it, for the record:

    1. 1 Timothy 4:1 is a reference to departing from the faith in Christ?
    2. 1 Timothy 4:1 is a reference to departing from the faith what Christ created?


    JLB
     
  15. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Stating your opinion in the face of scripture is clearly the weak position.
    Making unfounded accusations against me, shows that your position is weak.

    6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:6-8





    Those who look forward to and who love His appearing are those who are faithful followers of Jesus Jesus Christ, whose confidence is shown in their love and anticipation of their beloved Savior.


    That's what faith looks like: Confidence expressing itself through love. A love born of faith, which is the confidence of things hoped for.



    JLB
     
  16. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Exactlty.

    Probably refers to efforts connected with the earthly sanctuary system to secure cleansing and acceptance before God. We find the same phrase in Heb 9:
    13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
    14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death (dead works), so that we may serve the living God!

    So, now that Messiah had made His perfect sacrifce, Jewish believers who turned to Him in faith changed their mind about the Livital sacrificial system.
     
  17. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes you insert Christ into a passage about creation.

    The passage does not say faith in Christ. You insert it, and I never said that it spoke of faith in creation.

    What I said was what Paul says:

    "For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

    False dichotomy!
    Some people deny that every creature of God is good and nothing is to be refused since it has been sanctified by the Word of God.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
     
  18. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Well, I certainly disagree. As does the Bible, and quite plainly:
    ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2 Tim 3:16

    His statement was about God maving mercy. Isa 55:7 tells us on WHOM He has mercy.

    I seem to detect a reticence to admit that God responds to man's actions.

    Let's examine what the Scriptures actually say:

    Romans 9:15
    For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
    Romans 9:16
    So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
    Romans 9:18
    So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.[/QUOTE]
    It appears the "catch" is in v.16. What that verse means is that man cannot will or exert God to grant mercy. But when man repents and turns to God, God DOES grant mercy to him.

    Or is Isa 55:7 not to be believed?

    Actually, not. There are 3 Greek words translated and related to the concept of being elected, or election:
    1. eklektos, the adjective describing the elect.
    2. eklegomai, the verb meaning to elect.
    3. ekloge, the noun for an election.

    The word in 2 Thess 2:13 isn't even closely related to any of these 3 words. The word is hairomai. It means simply to choose.

    But the point is that while all elections involve a choice, not all choices involve an election.

    Those who don't understand this difference will never understand how to understand the biblical doctrine of election.

    Biblical election is about being chosen for service, not salvation. And I can prove that, if there is any interest.

    I'm not sure "we" all do know how. Do you believe that God actually chooses who will believe? That's the only real issue.

    Of course God chooses whom to save. And that is believers only. From 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

    For God to be "pleased to sve those who believe", it should be obvious that He chose to save believers.

    But the Bible never speaks of God choosing who will believe, which is the foundation for Calvinist election.

    I then said this:
    "And guess what?! The Bible actually says that plainly:
    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

    I had asked for any verse that says that God chooses who will believe. Are there any?"
    [/QUOTE]Guess what! Another red herring.[/QUOTE]
    What I see are red letters, but no red herring. What, exactly is this "red herring" that you speak of in my comment?

    Thank you for so noting.

    Well, there you go! Finally we're on the same page.

    But, those of Calvinist persuasion think that God's election to salvation (there is no such thing) means that He has chosen the "elect" to believe. Because the Bible says that those who believe will be saved. So by choosing some for salvation, He has actually chosen them to believe. And then He gives them the faith by which to believe. Or words to that effect.
     
  19. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    This is what I posted:
    "Why bother including my post and then totally avoiding it?

    Your question is immaterial, because your default view that "fire" refers to hell. When, in fact, "fire" is frequently used for God's discipline.

    1 Cor 3:14,15 prove that fact.
    14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
    15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    Here is another text that demonstrates eternal security. EVEN if the works of a believer is burned up, "YET THEY WILL BE SAVED". So being "burned up" in v.15a cannot refer to hell because the believer is said to be saved. And the "flames" of v.15b also cannot be a reference to hell, even though "flames" means 'fire'."
    Why would anyone make up such a false claim as yours? Where in my post did I ever post such a thing??

    I think you're going to have to do better than just make up stuff to attack. But I guess that's all you've got. But it seriously weakens your argument, if not downright destroys it.

    Since all who "have believed" (aorist tense) ARE sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14, your "interpretation" of this verse cannot be true. And there are no verses that address the sealing with the Holy Spirit that teaches that anyone can be unsealed and miss the day of redemption.

    Again, Eph 1:13,14 doesn't allow for your "interpretation", that these verses speak of loss of salvation.
     
  20. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Christian:
    Yes
    Christ is our light. Forget about your Hermeneutics thing.

    The Bible is the book Isa. predicted. Isa. 29:18 Scripture refers to the writings/predictions of the prophets. Jesus was sent to fulfill the prophets. Mt. 5:17 To fulfill everything that was written about him. The gospel is the good news which came by Jesus. The letters of the apostles of Jesus Christ are letters to the churches they founded.

    Don't be deceived by scientific sounding words coming from the scholars. I would reject the idea God is everywhere. God is in heaven and he is also in those who love him. John 14:23 Besides Omniscient means all knowing.

    Certainly he knows the thoughts of man and what is in a man's heart. Ps. 94:1, Ps. 44:21 With God all things are possible. Mt. 19:26

    Re. predestined or destined from the beginning Peter writes, "He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake." 1 Peter 1:20 talking about Jesus Christ and Paul writes,
    Romans 8:29
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
    Romans 8:30
    And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

    Are all men predestined? Could be. Like Paul said, he makes men for glory and men for destruction. But that's not to say there is no hope for the wicked if they return to God. God can do impossible things, like change their destiny, if they believe.

    I trust in the Lord that he will save his servants. And he will have mercy on whoever he wills. Ro. 9:15-18

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
     
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