D
Donovb
Guest
One of the subjects Ive always wondered about. Can you lose Salvation? There's really no clear answer to this question(at least Ive never got a clear cut answer). Let's debate.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Jethro Bodine
Member
Two things are clear.
1) The Bible does make it clear that sanctified people can lose the benefit of Christ's sacrifice and endure the wrath of God. People in this forum helped me be honest about scriptures that we are continually taught mean something else than what they plainly say. That is how I got off the fence about OSAS. (I was going to start a thread today about how I got off the fence about this subject. Now I don't have to.)
2) This thread will probably end up with a lock on it.
1) The Bible does make it clear that sanctified people can lose the benefit of Christ's sacrifice and endure the wrath of God. People in this forum helped me be honest about scriptures that we are continually taught mean something else than what they plainly say. That is how I got off the fence about OSAS. (I was going to start a thread today about how I got off the fence about this subject. Now I don't have to.)
2) This thread will probably end up with a lock on it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
May I recommend that we stay away from a debate kind of interaction and just share our experiences and growth in this area. Perhaps we will all learn the most that way. As I have shared, by people simply putting the plain truth of scripture out there-- minus the added explanation of the church to force me to see it the OSAS way--changed my belief about it.
Last edited:
Christ_empowered
Member
I vote for being able to lose one's salvation. I don't mean that in a TULIP kinda way, where those who walk away were never saved to begin with. I mean some of us fail to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling," you know?
For instance...if I were to turn to a life of continued sexual immorality and/or heavy, consistent drug abuse, that, to me, would be choosing the flesh over The Lord and His call to righteousness. We're a peculiar people, set apart for a purpose. So, to my mind, if we consistently choose the flesh and things of the world over The Lord and His will for our lives, then we've rejected Him.
I do see the appeal of OSAS. To live in constant fear of losing one's salvation is a terrible, terrible thing. I was saved by Pentecostals @ a Teen Challenge program. They certainly don't go for OSAS. The impression I got was that they firmly believe that you can lose your salvation through personal sin, and that one should always be "prayed up" and "ready to go," in the even of Christ's return. While I don't care for this extreme, either, I find the call to proper living and pursuit of God to be more in line with my (admittedly quite limited) knowledge of Scripture. From a psychological standpoint, the old school Pentecostal viewpoint might be more crazy making, but at least it acts as a exhortation to go after God and His ways.
Sometimes, I think it gets a little ridiculous and judgmental. Like saying that suicide=Hell, automatically. Given how rough the world can be on people, I just don't see how self-murder could automatically equal eternal damnation. Then again, I'm a Baby Christian. Maybe I'm trying to make God fit into my pre-conceived notions of how He *should* do things.
So, yeah...I tend to think, personally, not in terms of OSAS, TULIP, or what I learned @ Teen Challenge and Pentecostal churches. My basic understanding of Scripture leaves me with the impression that salvation is largely God's work in the lives of undeserving wretches (He who has begun a good work in you shall see it through to the end...), but there comes a point at which some leave Christ. Some return, some live and die in their mess. To complicate matters, you have...wheat and the tares; wolves in sheep's clothing; false prophets and teachers who deceive, if possible, the very elect. We are told that "many are called, few are chosen," and that "...the sheep know my voice..." Throw in seeds planted in different sorts of soil (good, shallow, amongst thorns), and...wow. I don't have a real, solid answer for you. My impression is that the situation is far more nuanced and complicated than OSAS vs other doctrines.
For instance...if I were to turn to a life of continued sexual immorality and/or heavy, consistent drug abuse, that, to me, would be choosing the flesh over The Lord and His call to righteousness. We're a peculiar people, set apart for a purpose. So, to my mind, if we consistently choose the flesh and things of the world over The Lord and His will for our lives, then we've rejected Him.
I do see the appeal of OSAS. To live in constant fear of losing one's salvation is a terrible, terrible thing. I was saved by Pentecostals @ a Teen Challenge program. They certainly don't go for OSAS. The impression I got was that they firmly believe that you can lose your salvation through personal sin, and that one should always be "prayed up" and "ready to go," in the even of Christ's return. While I don't care for this extreme, either, I find the call to proper living and pursuit of God to be more in line with my (admittedly quite limited) knowledge of Scripture. From a psychological standpoint, the old school Pentecostal viewpoint might be more crazy making, but at least it acts as a exhortation to go after God and His ways.
Sometimes, I think it gets a little ridiculous and judgmental. Like saying that suicide=Hell, automatically. Given how rough the world can be on people, I just don't see how self-murder could automatically equal eternal damnation. Then again, I'm a Baby Christian. Maybe I'm trying to make God fit into my pre-conceived notions of how He *should* do things.
So, yeah...I tend to think, personally, not in terms of OSAS, TULIP, or what I learned @ Teen Challenge and Pentecostal churches. My basic understanding of Scripture leaves me with the impression that salvation is largely God's work in the lives of undeserving wretches (He who has begun a good work in you shall see it through to the end...), but there comes a point at which some leave Christ. Some return, some live and die in their mess. To complicate matters, you have...wheat and the tares; wolves in sheep's clothing; false prophets and teachers who deceive, if possible, the very elect. We are told that "many are called, few are chosen," and that "...the sheep know my voice..." Throw in seeds planted in different sorts of soil (good, shallow, amongst thorns), and...wow. I don't have a real, solid answer for you. My impression is that the situation is far more nuanced and complicated than OSAS vs other doctrines.
Two things are clear.
1) The Bible does make it clear that sanctified people can lose the benefit of Christ's sacrifice and endure the wrath of God. People in this forum helped me be honest about scriptures that we are continually taught mean something else than what they plainly say. That is how I got off the fence about OSAS. (I was going to start a thread today about how I got off the fence about this subject. Now I don't have to.)
2) This thread will probably end up with a lock on it.
Let's start at what Jesus said, as this is the foundation that the truth about this subject will be built upon.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-34,41,46
- Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
- Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
One group of people inherited the kingdom.
The other group did not inherit the kingdom.
JLB
Gary
Member
I'm gonna give you a verse I want you ponder. If this thread goes the usual route, you're gonna be getting a ton of scripture, so I'm gonna make it easy for you. All you need is common sense.
Matthew 7....(NKJV)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
This passage holds one absolute truth and that is that those people being rejected by Christ believed in their heart they were saved. Regardless of what anyone says about those people, the bottom line is, They believed they were saved..............................and were not.
The answer to your question is in that passage.
.
I'm gonna give you a verse I want you ponder. If this thread goes the usual route, you're gonna be getting a ton of scripture, so I'm gonna make it easy for you. All you need is common sense.
Matthew 7....(NKJV)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
This passage holds one absolute truth and that is that those people being rejected by Christ believed in their heart they were saved. Regardless of what anyone says about those people, the bottom line is, They believed they were saved..............................and were not.
The answer to your question is in that passage.
.
Great scripture and common sense!
I agree 100%!
However this does not address the OP, which is about being saved, and losing your salvation.
Your scripture and post is about those who were never saved... "I never knew you".
JLB
Gary
Member
The point is, They thought they were saved.
How many people are walking around with that same thought?
How many Christians believe they are saved and what makes their belief any different from those in the passage?
.
Hi Donovb, it's a nice topic to discuss.
I've often looked at Psalm 23:6 where David says, "...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
How did David know that he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever?
How long is forever?
Was he talking about just this lifetime on Earth?
This, the David who was so close to God, who gave us prophesies about the coming of the Messiah?
I believe he was talking about all eternity.
When Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise".
Did he also say, "but only if you don't sin again between now and when you die?".
No, he did not.
When the Apostle Paul said, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that he rose again, you will be saved".
He didn't say you could lose your salvation, he only said that you could gain it.
As Christians, we should be united in the gift that God has given us and not cause doubt in believers, but instead, build them up in their faith.
I've come to trust in the keeping power of Him who died for me as to my standing in God. I follow after the Spirit instead of the flesh concerning the state of my salvation.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/
Jethro Bodine
Member
For me it was seeing in the Bible where it does say 'if you keep believing between now and when you die'. Too often, OSAS can only hear the non-OSAS as 'you are saved by works', when the argument is 'you are saved by your faith if it continues to the very end'.
Deborah13
Member
Gary
That scripture, Matthew 7:21-23, says to me that there are people who do things in the Lord's name, thinking that their works will save them.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
They take the credit for these mighty works that are done by God. They have received their reward from men.
Joh 6:28 They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
Joh 6:30 They said therefore to him, `What sign, then, dost thou, that we may see and may believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 our fathers the manna did eat in the wilderness, according as it is having been written, Bread out of the heaven He gave them to eat.'
Joh 6:32 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread out of the heaven; but my Father doth give you the true bread out of the heaven;
Jesus understood what they were saying. They gave credit to Moses for the bread from heaven rather than the Father.
That scripture, Matthew 7:21-23, says to me that there are people who do things in the Lord's name, thinking that their works will save them.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
They take the credit for these mighty works that are done by God. They have received their reward from men.
Joh 6:28 They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'
Joh 6:30 They said therefore to him, `What sign, then, dost thou, that we may see and may believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 our fathers the manna did eat in the wilderness, according as it is having been written, Bread out of the heaven He gave them to eat.'
Joh 6:32 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread out of the heaven; but my Father doth give you the true bread out of the heaven;
Jesus understood what they were saying. They gave credit to Moses for the bread from heaven rather than the Father.
So you think you might lose your faith and not make it to heaven as well as all those that agree with you?
When do you know you're going to heaven?
When you take your last breath?
What if you die while you are asleep and are having a sinful dream?
Or think a sinful thought before you fall asleep?
Do you think God had to die for that?
D
deep'n'dark
Guest
I have belived that salvation will happen if you regret your sinds during your lifetime.
Don't you imagine there are millions of people who don't care one way or another about following Christ who regret plenty of their sins?
D
deep'n'dark
Guest
Mayby it's too complex to follow everything he thaught, for people.
I use to believe once saved always saved, but got a new insight to this. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Rev 2:10 all say that to those who endure unto the end are those who will be saved. The end of what you might ask, the end of all the trials and tribulations we face daily in this word of evil wickedness that surrounds us and will wax worse and worse until Jesus returns and calls His Bride to meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4. Those whose faith in Christ is weak as they never allow it to mature or build upon it will be more inclined to curse God (blasphemy the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, 32) from their heart and completely turn away from Him denouncing God in their lives when not trusting God in all things when they face the trials and tribulations of this world and actually blame God for their torments.
Philippians Chapter Two gives us insight on how to endure by allowing ourselves to be humbled before the Father in all humility. Many come to the alter, but soon waver from it, but it is those who come to the alter of grace and are truly sealed by the Holy Spirit and remain in the will of God through obedience to His word by applying it to their lives knowing that even when we face the evil of this world God is right there with us as we run the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1,2.
When we first accept Christ as our Lord and Savior through pure repentance we are only at that time saved or delivered from our past sins as we begin our personal relationship with Jesus and true faith that is Christ will lead us into Gods righteousness as we have been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3-7, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
The only thing that can separate us from the love of God is blasphemy against His Holy Spirit which means coming against God and anyone who is truly sealed by His Spirit will not want to come against Him, but draw even closer to Him.
Philippians Chapter Two gives us insight on how to endure by allowing ourselves to be humbled before the Father in all humility. Many come to the alter, but soon waver from it, but it is those who come to the alter of grace and are truly sealed by the Holy Spirit and remain in the will of God through obedience to His word by applying it to their lives knowing that even when we face the evil of this world God is right there with us as we run the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1,2.
When we first accept Christ as our Lord and Savior through pure repentance we are only at that time saved or delivered from our past sins as we begin our personal relationship with Jesus and true faith that is Christ will lead us into Gods righteousness as we have been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3-7, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
The only thing that can separate us from the love of God is blasphemy against His Holy Spirit which means coming against God and anyone who is truly sealed by His Spirit will not want to come against Him, but draw even closer to Him.
So you are saying that a person can be saved before they are sealed by the Holy Spirit?
So when is it that a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit?
Well it appears we have around seven on this thread that have no idea if they're going to heaven, have only conditional life, and I would suppose that they think they keep the law in their own way. I applaud them in their determination to keep themselves in spite of the evidence against them; down deep inside they know they continue to sin, and are not remaining faithful unto the end.
As for me I am determined to believe I have been given eternal life, and am free to continue growing in grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
As for me I am determined to believe I have been given eternal life, and am free to continue growing in grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.