My pastor is a dictator.
He won't change.
He's trying right now for more power moves.
I won't leave the church.
What should I do?
He won't change.
He's trying right now for more power moves.
I won't leave the church.
What should I do?
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Calvary Chapel Revisited
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
Stay under their radar, ministering to your brothers and sisters in whatever way you are able to do that there until there is the inevitable confrontation with leadership.
or
Get out now before the inevitable confrontation with leadership occurs.
Thank you JB.
But you know how confrontational I can be.
I just pray for God to guide me and the others who stand beside me to get through this.
Jethro Bodine
Member
May I ask what the pastor is being dictatorial about?
Pastors generally don't think it good that they receive guidance or instruction from anyone. I understand why they are like that. I don't agree with it, but I understand why they think that.
Pastors generally don't think it good that they receive guidance or instruction from anyone. I understand why they are like that. I don't agree with it, but I understand why they think that.
You learn things in life from experience.
Calvary Chapels are dictatorships.
They use the "Moses Model".
The pastor answers to God and no one else.
The list of things he has done, hasn't done, and is trying to do, is long and we all agree there is more than any of us know.
Both active elders are in the process of being replaced.
They're jobs in the church are being taken from them and they both know it and are powerless to stop it.
As I say, the whole thing is a long story that keeps getting longer.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This sounds more like a 'get out of Dodge' thing to me.
The_Epsicle
Member
Get out of dodge, the Pastor should be protected from accusations but he should not be invincible from them.
The problem of leaving is that we have a group of
Godly men that don't want to leave.
Some have been here before it became a Calvary Chapel almost 10 years ago.
It is home to them.
I can't walk away from them.
Besides, where will I go?
I've already tried most every church in the area.
And then I would lose my friendship with these men, and feel I deserted them.
I can't do that.
Of course, I could go to the Roman Catholic Church across the street.
Godly men that don't want to leave.
Some have been here before it became a Calvary Chapel almost 10 years ago.
It is home to them.
I can't walk away from them.
Besides, where will I go?
I've already tried most every church in the area.
And then I would lose my friendship with these men, and feel I deserted them.
I can't do that.
Of course, I could go to the Roman Catholic Church across the street.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The Church of the Enlightened Ones
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, this is an interesting twist.
I was thinking in my mind that the overwhelming truth here is 'this is a Calvary Chapel Church, it's theirs'. But since the church invited Calvary Chapel into themselves, and not the other way around I think there is a distant chance you can bring about a disassociation with Calvary Chapel. Things like this do happen. The problem is, can this be done peaceably? Since this is the pastor's livelihood, prolly not.
Does this have anything to do with the sit down you had with church leadership that didn't go so well that you made mention of in another thread?
Jethro Bodine
Member
What exactly are the specific points of contention with the pastor?
Is it possible for the congregation to make a formal BUT ENTIRELY PEACEFUL request for release from the Calvary Chapel denomination? This would probably mean the pastor leaves, then you can start a pastor search. But it may involve monetary compensation to the Calvary Chapel denomination for various assets of the church.
Is it possible for the congregation to make a formal BUT ENTIRELY PEACEFUL request for release from the Calvary Chapel denomination? This would probably mean the pastor leaves, then you can start a pastor search. But it may involve monetary compensation to the Calvary Chapel denomination for various assets of the church.
Obadiah
Member
Yes, granted, these are good points. I've been in this situation before and my solution was to leave the church. But there were lots of other churches in the area so I knew finding one I wanted to attend wouldn't be hard and most of the people I was friends with at the church had already left anyway.
If you don't want to leave, it seems your only choices (that I can think of) are to either just learn to deal with the parts you don't like or be the one to spearhead a group of like minded congregation members to confront the pastor and demand change. (I'm assuming this isn't already happening.) Neither of these will be easy, and the second one certainly needs a lot of prayer (involving more listening to God rather then telling God) to make sure what your group does (or doesn't do) is what God actually wants. It can be a very touchy situation since in the worst case that "change" may mean a forced change of pastors. You will need to be very careful if this is the route you or someone else in the congregation takes.
Edit: I see Jethro posted while I was writing this with essentially the same ideas bit with more detail and suggestions of how it might be done. Consider me seconding his posts.
Obadiah
Member
I'm wondering too, are the things you are saying about Calvary Chapel true across the board, or is it just this particular pastor who has made it this way for your particular congregation. I've attended Calvary Chapels in the past, mainly the original one under Chuck Smith, but never was regular enough (do to distance) to see the details of how they operate. Any Calvary Chapel members in our forum that can shed light on this???
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Well................................
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Thanks for the replies.
In the past year, most of us have been enlightened as to what a Calvary Chapel really is.
Others who knew before that time just ignored it because everything was running so smoothly.
But things have happened that keep changing.
The pastor teaches and preaches 2 church services and runs the church.
That is his entire job.
He hired the music leader to be a pastor so as not to lose him as this is what the music leader had threatened to do.
And he would have taken the whole band with him since they perform together outside the church.
His arch-enemy (those are my words) pastor Mike DiSanza died last year, paving the way for the pastor to start making changes.
He fired one guy from his ministry for whatever reason.
He fired another guy from his ministry claiming health issues.
We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000.
Right now, no one knows anything about the finances of the church and he will not share it with anyone outside of his inner circle that work out of the offices with him.
He's trying to break up the men's Tuesday morning prayer group and we think he is working to replace our beloved Sunday school teacher.
And what else?
He has changed all 3 weekly services, no altar calls, no prayer at the end of services, elders are not allowed up front to pray with people, etc. etc. etc.
Nobody knows what is going on in his mind.
Jim Jones?
I hope not.
In the past year, most of us have been enlightened as to what a Calvary Chapel really is.
Others who knew before that time just ignored it because everything was running so smoothly.
But things have happened that keep changing.
The pastor teaches and preaches 2 church services and runs the church.
That is his entire job.
He hired the music leader to be a pastor so as not to lose him as this is what the music leader had threatened to do.
And he would have taken the whole band with him since they perform together outside the church.
His arch-enemy (those are my words) pastor Mike DiSanza died last year, paving the way for the pastor to start making changes.
He fired one guy from his ministry for whatever reason.
He fired another guy from his ministry claiming health issues.
We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000.
Right now, no one knows anything about the finances of the church and he will not share it with anyone outside of his inner circle that work out of the offices with him.
He's trying to break up the men's Tuesday morning prayer group and we think he is working to replace our beloved Sunday school teacher.
And what else?
He has changed all 3 weekly services, no altar calls, no prayer at the end of services, elders are not allowed up front to pray with people, etc. etc. etc.
Nobody knows what is going on in his mind.
Jim Jones?
I hope not.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't know how Calvary Chapel is structured but it sounds like if there is someone higher up to appeal to that is what you need to do.
Obadiah
Member
That sure doesn't sound like the Calvary Chapel that I went to as a frequent visitor (Costa Mesa in the 70's). If what you are saying is accurate, I wonder if this is a rogue pastor trying to set up his own little theocracy and needs to be removed by the congregation.
Having been on staff at more than one church in my time, what is disturbing to me (among other things) is his hiding of the finances from congregation members. When you say "We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000" do you mean a mortgage was taken out specifically to fix the air conditioner and you question why it was so much more than the esitimated cost of repairs? This is certainly a question that should be answered to any congregation member that asks it. In fact, there should have been a clear explanation given to the congregation before they even had to ask. I can see valid and proper reasons for this to happen, but it should be clear and out in the open! (For example, it could be a mortgage in the form of a line of credit in which interest is only paid on the amount used, and the higher limit of $90,000 allows a large margin for unanticipated cost overruns, etc.) I take it you are an official member, have actually asked to see the financial records, and have been denied. Or at least you know for a fact that another member has done this... No church I've been involved with has ever hidden their financial records!
When you say he has fired people from the ministry I assume you are talking about paid ministry staff, not non-ministerial staff such as a church secretary, janitor, etc? And firing (as opposed to laying off) implies it was done because of some serious problem with the minister, not just a budget cut or something similar. This is ALWAYS something that the congregation should have a say in, probably through an official vote at an official congregational meeting if it has come to that point. As with anyone else, Matt 18:15-17 should have been followed and presenting the situation to the entire congregation for determination of what action should be taken would have been the last of the three steps if the 1st two failed. Sometimes this can cause splits in a congregation, which is sad. And to avoid this, sometimes church officials will fire someone without congregation approval, or they will force them to resign so they can claim that it was the minister's choice, not theirs. But this goes against Matt18, and using a congregations perceived inappropriate reaction is no excuse for circumventing God's word. Matt 18 applies to all Christians, whether brand new convert or long time pastor.
As far as his changes to the services, well, these things are a pastors prerogative in my opinion. They don't sound like good changes to me, but I'm not a member of that church. The pastor needs to make changes that are beneficial to his congregation, not for his own good or his own advancement of power. If the congregation doesn't like these changes, this is another area that the congregation needs to come together and confront him, and demand changes.
All in all, the easiest way (other than to simply leave) is probably going to be for the congregation to fire the pastor and find a new one that fits their ideas better. A harder way will be to teach the pastor to change his ways and attitudes. Not sure ho you do that with someone who is how you describe this man. It won't be easy. But keep in mind, most churches that fire a pastor also loose at least half of their congregation in the process. And this DOES have real world consequences when it come time to pay the bills out of the reduced income that will result. That may not be right, but it is reality and is something worth considering when choosing whether to fire him or to try to change him.
Having been on staff at more than one church in my time, what is disturbing to me (among other things) is his hiding of the finances from congregation members. When you say "We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000" do you mean a mortgage was taken out specifically to fix the air conditioner and you question why it was so much more than the esitimated cost of repairs? This is certainly a question that should be answered to any congregation member that asks it. In fact, there should have been a clear explanation given to the congregation before they even had to ask. I can see valid and proper reasons for this to happen, but it should be clear and out in the open! (For example, it could be a mortgage in the form of a line of credit in which interest is only paid on the amount used, and the higher limit of $90,000 allows a large margin for unanticipated cost overruns, etc.) I take it you are an official member, have actually asked to see the financial records, and have been denied. Or at least you know for a fact that another member has done this... No church I've been involved with has ever hidden their financial records!
When you say he has fired people from the ministry I assume you are talking about paid ministry staff, not non-ministerial staff such as a church secretary, janitor, etc? And firing (as opposed to laying off) implies it was done because of some serious problem with the minister, not just a budget cut or something similar. This is ALWAYS something that the congregation should have a say in, probably through an official vote at an official congregational meeting if it has come to that point. As with anyone else, Matt 18:15-17 should have been followed and presenting the situation to the entire congregation for determination of what action should be taken would have been the last of the three steps if the 1st two failed. Sometimes this can cause splits in a congregation, which is sad. And to avoid this, sometimes church officials will fire someone without congregation approval, or they will force them to resign so they can claim that it was the minister's choice, not theirs. But this goes against Matt18, and using a congregations perceived inappropriate reaction is no excuse for circumventing God's word. Matt 18 applies to all Christians, whether brand new convert or long time pastor.
As far as his changes to the services, well, these things are a pastors prerogative in my opinion. They don't sound like good changes to me, but I'm not a member of that church. The pastor needs to make changes that are beneficial to his congregation, not for his own good or his own advancement of power. If the congregation doesn't like these changes, this is another area that the congregation needs to come together and confront him, and demand changes.
All in all, the easiest way (other than to simply leave) is probably going to be for the congregation to fire the pastor and find a new one that fits their ideas better. A harder way will be to teach the pastor to change his ways and attitudes. Not sure ho you do that with someone who is how you describe this man. It won't be easy. But keep in mind, most churches that fire a pastor also loose at least half of their congregation in the process. And this DOES have real world consequences when it come time to pay the bills out of the reduced income that will result. That may not be right, but it is reality and is something worth considering when choosing whether to fire him or to try to change him.
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Obadiah
Member
I was told a long time ago by a Calvary Chapel pastor that each Calvary Chapel is an independent church, much like independent Baptist churches, with no head office or "higher authority" to appeal to. Don't know if that's always the case or if it's still the case.
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B
Brother Mike
Guest
Being Pastor is not easy. Thing is, as I would tell my people, did the Lord send you here? If you don't know, or if not, you need to find out who your suppose to be hooked up with.
If the Lord told you to be in that Church, then there should be no complaints. Now if you never heard clearly the Lord to be there, then let me tell you, being out of your place never satisfies, or works out.
92% of people that go to my church moved from all over the world and USA to go there. We only have 8% going there that is local and lived in Branson when Brother Keith came. That means people are hearing God and going where they are suppose to go.
I was under another man that owned the Church, He always ran night service, and gave me the day service. I had lots of folks coming to me wanting to do this, or that, and people like to pull to get their way on how things should be done. None of it moved me, what God said do, I did, and nothing extra.
God gave me an amazing praise and worship team. The professional singer and player for the night service told me he did not have time to do Sunday morning. I said fine, God will provide so I don't have to just play music through a CD. A girl I led to the Lord Sam Brandt who never sang, I brought her in to sing, and the rest just came in. Keyboards and everything.
Sam just cut her first Studio CD and is now singing professionally and writing songs. She is amazing.
If everyone is in the will of God, things run smooth. I don't fight against the pricks, it's a sign that I am heading the wrong direction.
We just spent 760,000 for air conditioning at our church. 65,000 is not a lot of money. The amount is not the issue. Millions, and I am believing God to be involved in projects for people to run into the billions. God is not broke, and nothing is impossible to him.
Heb_6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
If the person your following has issues with funds as that is the first thing to go once someone is out of the Will of God, it's time to seek the Lord, and find out where your suppose to be.
We have to make a choice, is God first? Is He really first, is the Word first.
If the Lord told you to be in that Church, then there should be no complaints. Now if you never heard clearly the Lord to be there, then let me tell you, being out of your place never satisfies, or works out.
92% of people that go to my church moved from all over the world and USA to go there. We only have 8% going there that is local and lived in Branson when Brother Keith came. That means people are hearing God and going where they are suppose to go.
I was under another man that owned the Church, He always ran night service, and gave me the day service. I had lots of folks coming to me wanting to do this, or that, and people like to pull to get their way on how things should be done. None of it moved me, what God said do, I did, and nothing extra.
God gave me an amazing praise and worship team. The professional singer and player for the night service told me he did not have time to do Sunday morning. I said fine, God will provide so I don't have to just play music through a CD. A girl I led to the Lord Sam Brandt who never sang, I brought her in to sing, and the rest just came in. Keyboards and everything.
Sam just cut her first Studio CD and is now singing professionally and writing songs. She is amazing.
If everyone is in the will of God, things run smooth. I don't fight against the pricks, it's a sign that I am heading the wrong direction.
We just spent 760,000 for air conditioning at our church. 65,000 is not a lot of money. The amount is not the issue. Millions, and I am believing God to be involved in projects for people to run into the billions. God is not broke, and nothing is impossible to him.
Heb_6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
If the person your following has issues with funds as that is the first thing to go once someone is out of the Will of God, it's time to seek the Lord, and find out where your suppose to be.
We have to make a choice, is God first? Is He really first, is the Word first.