A belief in inaccuracy

[Not_Now.Soon]

A reoccurring Theme in I've heard from some Muslims, is that the Quaran is accurate where as the New Testiment and the Torah have been corrupted over time. With how the Old Tesiment leads to the New Testiment in the bible, I can't imagine God would allow His scriptures to be mangled to the point of not conveying what He was trying to teach us. Even through all the centuries and languages it's translated through, I can't imagine that God would allow the guide of the previous books in Gods word to become anything but a beacon to anything in the future that He plans for us. So corruption of the bible is the first reason I stopped my search for God after accepting Christianity to be from Him. Because the next religion that claims to be from the same line of prophets, also claims that those words are not to be trusted that are from the previous prophets, and scriptures.

That said, how can I convoy this in a conversation to a Muslim I meet without the conversation or friendship turning sour. He would say, "do the reasurch," confidant that I would reasurch Islam and find it to be true. I can't say no what you've described is an insult to Faith in God. And I expecially can't say such things at work, or several other places if I meet another Muslim to befriend.

Any thoughts on how to say I don't want to reasurch it, or say God would not allow such a crouption, without it being as much an insult to his beliefs, as his thoughts on previous religions are an insult to my beliefs?

 

[smaller]

There is a deadly witness to the Muslims. Deadly. It works, effectively.

They know that they must abide by the law, as they see it. They also know that lawlessness is of Satan. They even term the U.S. the "great Satan." And therefore do they fight us.

Take them down the Road of Law. Tell them, that yes, violation of law is sin. And that sin is of the devil. In that, there is agreement.

Then, the death blow comes.

Jesus teaches us that evil thoughts are what defile us all, and that evil thoughts are the basis for all external sins. Not just the mere action of lawless sin on the outside, but in the slightest thoughts of evil. Matt. 5:28 is a fantastic witnessing tool for this matter, of internal evil, of adultery. Every last one of them will find CONVICTION on this ground. They can cover their women on the outside, but GOD KNOWS WHAT IS WITHIN THEM! And is neither MOCKED nor FOOLED by any man! And that it is internal evil that Jesus sees, not just those who are acting legal on the outside. Additional bolstering is found in Matt. 15:18-20 and Mark 7:21-23. IT is with this Sight, This Eye of God, that every person is proven to be a factual sinner, not on the outside but within, in the wicked evil of their own thoughts. And that only an HONEST person will see themselves, as God SEES them, within, in their own struggles with SATAN in their thoughts, which is EVIL within them.

It is on this ground that we cast ourselves unto Jesus, for His Infinite Grace and MERCY. Not lying to ourselves, that our external obedience is what saves us. We are saved by His Grace and Mercy, and not of our phony legal actions, which are only a cover-up of what is within, and the source of all religious hypocrisy, is sourced in LIES, because we are not honest before God about our INSIDES, and seek to fool Him and DECEIVE HIM, by our exterior actions.

You will find the conviction of The Holy Spirit, is with you in this matter. And the Sword of conviction will fall upon them.

They may not be turned, but they will QUESTION their every thought, once they have heard from The Holy Spirit in your witness of Christ's SIGHT, within them.

All this snick snack conversation about jots and tittles and translations will evaporate IN TRUTH.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There is a deadly witness to the Muslims. Deadly. It works, effectively.

They know that they must abide by the law, as they see it. They also know that lawlessness is of Satan. They even term the U.S. the "great Satan." And therefore do they fight us.

Take them down the Road of Law. Tell them, that yes, violation of law is sin. And that sin is of the devil. In that, there is agreement.

Then, the death blow comes.

Jesus teaches us that evil thoughts are what defile us all, and that evil thoughts are the basis for all external sins. Not just the mere action of lawless sin on the outside, but in the slightest thoughts of evil. Matt. 5:28 is a fantastic witnessing tool for this matter, of internal evil, of adultery. Every last one of them will find CONVICTION on this ground. They can cover their women on the outside, but GOD KNOWS WHAT IS WITHIN THEM! And is neither MOCKED nor FOOLED by any man! And that it is internal evil that Jesus sees, not just those who are acting legal on the outside. Additional bolstering is found in Matt. 15:18-20 and Mark 7:21-23. IT is with this Sight, This Eye of God, that every person is proven to be a factual sinner, not on the outside but within, in the wicked evil of their own thoughts. And that only an HONEST person will see themselves, as God SEES them, within, in their own struggles with SATAN in their thoughts, which is EVIL within them.

It is on this ground that we cast ourselves unto Jesus, for His Infinite Grace and MERCY. Not lying to ourselves, that our external obedience is what saves us. We are saved by His Grace and Mercy, and not of our phony legal actions, which are only a cover-up of what is within, and the source of all religious hypocrisy, is sourced in LIES, because we are not honest before God about our INSIDES, and seek to fool Him and DECEIVE HIM, by our exterior actions.

You will find the conviction of The Holy Spirit, is with you in this matter. And the Sword of conviction will fall upon them.

They may not be turned, but they will QUESTION their every thought, once they have heard from The Holy Spirit in your witness of Christ's SIGHT, within them.

All this snick snack conversation about jots and tittles and translations will evaporate IN TRUTH.

Sorry Smaller, that's a conversation that's outside the scope that I am trying for. It'll lead to a fairly likely religous debate, which I don't think will be welcome at work. Thanks for the thoughts though. I will try and keep them in mind if a different conversation outside of work comes up.

 

[smaller]

The New Testament is NOT corrupted in the matters conveyed, and is proven to be True, exactly in that way, to any unbeliever, regardless of any side line issues about "translations."

Sorry if you don't see the wisdom Christ conveys in this direction of witnessing.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The New Testament is NOT corrupted in the matters conveyed, and is proven to be True, exactly in that way, to any unbeliever, regardless of any side line issues about "translations."

Sorry if you don't see the wisdom Christ conveys in this direction of witnessing.

I'm not saying it is corrupted. That's exactly what I want to tell a Muslim without it blowing out into a religous discussion that might affect work or get me fired. This isn't a conversation I've really had with him, and it might not happen either. May have missed my chance on that conversation. But based on past conversations and what I've collected from Muslim perspectives, it's part of the conversation that will happen. The conversation so far is from his side. Saying he became Muslim after researching it and researching the history of Christianity. (Plus a few conspiricy theories about media munipulation and the possibility that ISIS is just portrayed wrong and not a terrorist orginization.) But that conversation tree is likely to get into translations, languages and the purposeful editing of scriptures to change it. These are argument's I've heard. And are the stem of my question. How can I tell him (or any future Muslim I meet) that this is a slap in the face in trusting God without it turning into a drastic conversation of his views verses mine. Does that make more sense?

 

[Edward]

@ Post #2...wow, bravo, Brother. I don't know about dealing with the Muslim guy, but the Word of God (His Scriptures) haven't been mistranslated to any point of significance which would impede people from finding wisdom & life through those words. I think people say that stuff because perhaps that particular passage may speak of something worldly, which they want to hang onto? So they twist the scripture to fit what they want it to, their world view and belief system. (everyone has at least one vice). But I digress, Proof that the Words of God are true? It's in there!

Matthew 24:35
Luke 21:33

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not saying it is corrupted. That's exactly what I want to tell a Muslim without it blowing out into a religous discussion that might affect work or get me fired. This isn't a conversation I've really had with him, and it might not happen either. May have missed my chance on that conversation. But based on past conversations and what I've collected from Muslim perspectives, it's part of the conversation that will happen. The conversation so far is from his side. Saying he became Muslim after researching it and researching the history of Christianity. (Plus a few conspiricy theories about media munipulation and the possibility that ISIS is just portrayed wrong and not a terrorist orginization.) But that conversation tree is likely to get into translations, languages and the purposeful editing of scriptures to change it. These are argument's I've heard. And are the stem of my question. How can I tell him (or any future Muslim I meet) that this is a slap in the face in trusting God without it turning into a drastic conversation of his views verses mine. Does that make more sense?

Actually, I just switched careers at my work and have a 23 year old devout Muslim who live in Dearborn Mi. as my mentor We get into some decent conversations, but they are never argumentative. They believe in Moses and Jesus, but know very little about either. They just finished Ramadan a short bit ago and during one of our conversations, I told him it reminded me of Purim. He asked what that was, so I told him the story of Esther. He was very intrigued about the history of Israel.
As for Christianity, he seems to like to study Catholicism.
As far as his questions to you, those are debating conversations. Stay away from them. You don't need to but heads with him. But, if the conversation ever comes up, you can validate the OT by using the Dead Sea Scrolls as an example of perfectly preserved copies of Jewish Bible that are word for word verbatim with newer OT text that are still being circulated by the Jews. This in itself is a testament to the stability of the OT writings. He may want to bring in the Septuigent (Greek version of the OT in the days of Jesus for the Hellenistic Jews). Keep in mind, that was a translation...
Again, I would just say that you should be non-confrontational and avoid anything argumentative in a polite way. He'll start asking you questions as he begins to trust you. Time is on your side and it's God that adds the increase. We just plant the seeds.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Thanks StoveBolts.

 

[pie-man]

Hi Not_Now.Soon,

I though comments from SteveBolts were helpful. I think trying to find the common ground with anyone whom we disagree with, is a good place to start. Sincerity I think is important, and something God takes into account more than any theological understanding we have. Jesus gave an excellent example of this in his story about the good Samaritan. The Samaritan wasn't the right religion, essentially looked down on as an heretical cult of their day, yet Jesus holds him up as example of what God is looking for. Could we replace Samaritan with a Muslim?

 

[JCitoL]

how is it possible that all christian clerics of the world (without exception) decide with one voice to change the Holy Scripture especially after at least most of them know the greatest punishment in hell is prepared exactly for the false prophets?!, and if someone even tries to introduce such a change, will not there be many christian clerics to resist and prevent this from happening?!, even if many christian clerics are unfaithful, the Lord, Jesus, says on this:

Matthew 23:2-7 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever(i.e. any thing according to the original/genuine scriptures) they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi."

in principle all biblical scriptures are translated from the original/genuine manuscripts that were written by the respective true Prophets/Saints or ancient scribe(s), while another question is which translations/versions of the Bible are more correct and which are more incorrect, which usually varies within passages, not that the difference in this regard is only between the versions, and if some believer mistrusts the translations, then the same can use the original manuscripts which are now available on the internet, moreover, free

Blessings

 

[JohnDB]

I would say that both books are accurately replicated through the years.

But only the Bible has several layers of complexity that insure its accuracy. (Equal distance letter spacing and poetry and...) All the while being simplistic in its story telling. It has a chronology to it and thematics that blend.

Meanwhile the Koran jumps and shifts topics like a Dictionary does. It's really impossible to follow.

 

[Free]

how is it possible that all christian clerics of the world (without exception) decide with one voice to change the Holy Scripture especially after at least most of them know the greatest punishment in hell is prepared exactly for the false prophets?!, and if someone even tries to introduce such a change, will not there be many christian clerics to resist and prevent this from happening?!, even if many christian clerics are unfaithful, the Lord, Jesus, says on this:

You seem to be contradicting yourself between the first and second sentences. What are you trying to say?

in principle all biblical scriptures are translated from the original/genuine manuscripts that were written by the respective true Prophets/Saints or ancient scribe(s), while another question is which translations/versions of the Bible are more correct and which are more incorrect, which usually varies within passages, not that the difference in this regard is only between the versions, and if some believer mistrusts the translations, then the same can use the original manuscripts which are now available on the internet, moreover, free

Blessings

I'm not sure what your point is here, but for clarification we do not have any of the original autographs, we only have copies.

 

[Kidron]

A reoccurring Theme in I've heard from some Muslims, is that the Quaran is accurate where as the New Testiment and the Torah have been corrupted over time.

The Quran is a badly attempted counterfeit of the account of Christianity.
Its complete with a messiah-prophet, a heaven (paradise), a bible, and even goes so far as to attribute the Qu`rans origin as coming from the same angel who spoke to Mary.
Duh.
The Qu-ran as well as Islam in general is nothing more then an attempt to counterfeit Christianity.
They have no religion of their own other then to have 3-600 "godz" they worshiped as Bedouin tribes until they decided on the "moon god", >allah< as there #1, but He was not always.
Then of course they needed a prophet, so they choose Mohammed as their copy of the real Messiah, and have him ascending into heaven, as only a good false copy of the Truth can do.

Have you ever noticed the Muslim-Islamic flag?
Take a look at it, and you'll note it has a crescent MOON on it.
>allah<

----------

 

[Free]

I would say that both books are accurately replicated through the years.

But only the Bible has several layers of complexity that insure its accuracy. (Equal distance letter spacing and poetry and...) All the while being simplistic in its story telling. It has a chronology to it and thematics that blend.

Meanwhile the Koran jumps and shifts topics like a Dictionary does. It's really impossible to follow.

The Qur'an may have been accurately replicated over a long period of time, but it was not so in the process of its formation.

A reoccurring Theme in I've heard from some Muslims, is that the Quaran is accurate where as the New Testiment and the Torah have been corrupted over time. With how the Old Tesiment leads to the New Testiment in the bible, I can't imagine God would allow His scriptures to be mangled to the point of not conveying what He was trying to teach us. Even through all the centuries and languages it's translated through, I can't imagine that God would allow the guide of the previous books in Gods word to become anything but a beacon to anything in the future that He plans for us. So corruption of the bible is the first reason I stopped my search for God after accepting Christianity to be from Him. Because the next religion that claims to be from the same line of prophets, also claims that those words are not to be trusted that are from the previous prophets, and scriptures.

That said, how can I convoy this in a conversation to a Muslim I meet without the conversation or friendship turning sour. He would say, "do the reasurch," confidant that I would reasurch Islam and find it to be true. I can't say no what you've described is an insult to Faith in God. And I expecially can't say such things at work, or several other places if I meet another Muslim to befriend.

Any thoughts on how to say I don't want to reasurch it, or say God would not allow such a crouption, without it being as much an insult to his beliefs, as his thoughts on previous religions are an insult to my beliefs?

Something to keep in mind is that whenever someone makes a positive truth claim--the Bible has been corrupted over time; the Qur'an has been perfectly transmitted over time; God does not exist; the Bible is God's Word; ad infinitum--the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. That is, it is the person who makes a truth claim that is the one that must provide the proof. It is a fallacy to make a truth claim and put the burden of proof on the person who disagrees.

We used to have Muslims come frequent these forums and each time one of them claimed that the Bible was corrupted, I asked for proof. I never got any. In fact, the evidence points to the accurate transmission of the Bible--things like the Dead Sea Scroll find of Isaiah and the thousands of NT manuscripts. Just like Mormons, Muslims will make the claim that the Bible has been corrupted but if you get them talking, they will eventually appeal to the Bible to support some of their claims, at which point it must be asked how they know that the portion they are appealing to has not been corrupted.

It takes a lot of time, patience, and the love and grace of God in one's speech to reach such people. But try we must.

 

[Kidron]

It takes a lot of time, patience, and the love and grace of God in one's speech to reach such people. But try we must.

I was talking to a devout Muslim about the fact that Muslim women dont go to Allah's paradise even if they blow infidels up.
He told me that this is true, and told me that Allah would eventually work all that out on behalf of Muslim women at some point.

 

[JCitoL]

You seem to be contradicting yourself between the first and second sentences. What are you trying to say?

I'm not sure what your point is here, but for clarification we do not have any of the original autographs, we only have copies.

i also do not understand you

Blessings

 

[Kidron]

i also do not understand you

Blessings

What JCitoL is telling you is that there are no original letters from the Apostles.
All we have are greek manuscripts that are created from copies of the original letters written by the Apostles.
So, if a person says...."the original greek", they mean "copies of the original letters".
And if your pastor says...."this is a bad translation and we need to go back to the originals".....he is ither ignorant and does not have any manuscript evidence study in his seminary degree, or he is speaking about the greek manuscripts from which there are about 30 complete, but only a few are actually used to create the Protestant NT.
The Catholic NT is created from different manuscripts then what was used to create the Protestant NT that you use.

 

[Free]

Hi Not_Now.Soon,

I though comments from SteveBolts were helpful. I think trying to find the common ground with anyone whom we disagree with, is a good place to start. Sincerity I think is important, and something God takes into account more than any theological understanding we have. Jesus gave an excellent example of this in his story about the good Samaritan. The Samaritan wasn't the right religion, essentially looked down on as an heretical cult of their day, yet Jesus holds him up as example of what God is looking for. Could we replace Samaritan with a Muslim?

 

[JCitoL]

What JCitoL is telling you is that there are no original letters from the Apostles.
All we have are greek manuscripts that are created from copies of the original letters written by the Apostles.
So, if a person says...."the original greek", they mean "copies of the original letters".
And if your pastor says...."this is a bad translation and we need to go back to the originals".....he is ither ignorant and does not have any manuscript evidence study in his seminary degree, or he is speaking about the greek manuscripts from which there are about 30 complete, but only a few are actually used to create the Protestant NT.
The Catholic NT is created from different manuscripts then what was used to create the Protestant NT that you use.

and this is just one of the proofs which lead to the question (of) how can one be sure that the Bible (or another scripture) is the genuine Word of That Who really is the true Lord God?!, because which one of the humans could know that at all if there is no true God to give it to understand?!, that is why no one of the true believers is based on the Bible reading, but they all have His Truth by believing in Him, because it is anyway so that one could be confident in the genuineness of one or another scripture only then

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

Muslims are commanded to believe the bible. But they are told no bible exists.
They believe in Abraham, David, and even Moses. 400 people just died in an event honoring Abraham when he went to sacrifice his son

The OT is a great place to start with them because we have the Dead Sea scrolls etc that prove the accuracy of the Bible. Ground them in the stories they already know and find that common ground. Btw, they believe we serve the same God, so show them the relationship we have with our God. Don't tell them they serve a different God, cause we don't. Same God, different view