A Biblical Conflict

[GodsGrace]

When discussing eternal security, many that believe a person is saved forever, no matter what, will often post 2 Timothy 2:12-13:

12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
nasb

They like verse 13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

But...wait.
Doesn't verse 12 say: "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" ??

So... does HE also deny us...
OR
Does He remain faithful, even if we're not?

Sounds like a conflict, doesn't it...but there is no conflict in scripture.
So...what's the solution?

The solution is in the last sentence...
what does it mean?

 

[WIP]

Faithful means loyal.
Like the prodigal son's father, God patiently waits with open arms for our return for His will is that all will come to the truth and be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

When discussing eternal security, many that believe a person is saved forever, no matter what, will often post 2 Timothy 2:12-13:

12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
nasb

They like verse 13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

But...wait.
Doesn't verse 12 say: "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" ??

So... does HE also deny us...
OR
Does He remain faithful, even if we're not?

Sounds like a conflict, doesn't it...but there is no conflict in scripture.
So...what's the solution?

The solution is in the last sentence...
what does it mean?

Faithful means loyal.
Like the prodigal son's father, God patiently waits with open arms for our return for His will is that all will come to the truth and be saved.

Won't work.
Verse 12 says He will deny us...
Verse 13 says He won't...

What does it mean that God cannot deny Himself?

 

[chessman]

So... does HE also deny us...

Deny us what?

A. Salvation
B. Reigning with Him
C. Pudding
D. None of the above
E. Denies He ever knew us (even though He once did)?

P.S. Paul was referring to a pre-existing commonly known Christian hymn in verses 11-13 (to make his point to Timothy).
Kinda like (but not exactly) me saying to you: Wondering, don’t you know that - If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

 

[GodsGrace]

Deny us what?

A. Salvation
B. Reigning with Him
C. Pudding
D. None of the above
E. Denies He ever knew us (even though He once did)?

P.S. Paul was referring to a pre-existing commonly known Christian hymn in verses 11-13 (to make his point to Timothy).
Kinda like (but not exactly) me saying to you: Wondering, don’t you know that - If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

Be serious.

2 Timothy 2:8-13
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

You could compare this to:

Mathew 10:32-22
32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. "
nasb

If Jesus denies you, it means you're lost..it means He never knew you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus is just and faithful to all whether they believe in Him or not as all have a chance to come to Him before the door of Salvation is closed when He returns. God said that He would that none should perish and Jesus remains faithful in our hope of eternal life to all who are His own and endure until He returns.

If people continue to deny Him, even though He remains faithful in accepting all who will come to Him before He returns then they are the ones Jesus will deny as He never knew them.

 

[chessman]

Be serious.

I can be serious and have a little fun at the same time can’t I? Or would you deny me that???

You didn’t answer (nor highlight the preceding stanza to the phrase in question). So is it : A, B, C, D or E?

 

[GodsGrace]

I can be serious and have a little fun at the same time can’t I? Or would you deny me that???

You didn’t answer (nor highlight the preceding stanza to the phrase in question). So is it : A, B, C, D or E?

I answered you in post no. 5 C.
It's salvation, of course.

If Jesus denies us before God, what else could it mean?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is just and faithful to all whether they believe in Him or not as all have a chance to come to Him before the door of Salvation is closed when He returns. God said that He would that none should perish and Jesus remains faithful in our hope of eternal life to all who are His own and endure until He returns.

If people continue to deny Him, even though He remains faithful in accepting all who will come to Him before He returns then they are the ones Jesus will deny as He never knew them.

Agreed.
God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny Himself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is just and faithful to all whether they believe in Him or not as all have a chance to come to Him before the door of Salvation is closed when He returns. God said that He would that none should perish and Jesus remains faithful in our hope of eternal life to all who are His own and endure until He returns.

If people continue to deny Him, even though He remains faithful in accepting all who will come to Him before He returns then they are the ones Jesus will deny as He never knew them.

Agreed.
God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny Himself.

 

[chessman]

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

If Jesus denies us before God, what else could it mean?

What the song is about.

 

[Senior]

Mathew 10:32-22
32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. "
If Jesus denies you, it means you're lost .. it means He never knew you.

"I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23) fits, if one was to
deny Jesus ... because W. E. Vine says "knew" here means "approved of".

If you deny Jesus during Christian persecution, that means you haven't endured in the faith.

And there are a page full of NT verses which teach us that
we must endure until the end of our lives to be saved.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is just and faithful to all whether they believe in Him or not as all have a chance to come to Him before the door of Salvation is closed when He returns. God said that He would that none should perish and Jesus remains faithful in our hope of eternal life to all who are His own and endure until He returns.

If people continue to deny Him, even though He remains faithful in accepting all who will come to Him before He returns then they are the ones Jesus will deny as He never knew them.

Agreed.
God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny His nature ad His conditions.

 

[ezra]

neither side can you can not can prove there pint only by using scripture .. i have been studying on this for years one thing that is certain our salvation is kept by the power of God.. Jesus said no man can pluck us out of the fathers hand... my point in all this get ready it will draw fire ..btw might i add great job on stirring it lol the only true way either side can prove there point is die living the life of being lost w/o christ .. i am speaking on those who hold to eternal security .. but see a person living like the lost most likely never had salvation to start with . paul covered that in romans 6..shall we sin because we are under grace? GOD FORBID .. so imo i had rather know i was walking with him when my time comes .. all this does is creates arguments /discussion actually instead of a Biblical conflict ..it should read human conflict some place in time man kind read scriptures and made him self a doctrine and people jumped on board . many not even knowing the scriptures

 

[JLB]

But...wait.
Doesn't verse 12 say: "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" ??

Yes it does.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Faithful means loyal.
Like the prodigal son's father, God patiently waits with open arms for our return for His will is that all will come to the truth and be saved.

Amen.

Thank God He is paitient.

However, Those who become lost must repent and return or remain lost.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Deny us what?

A. Salvation
B. Reigning with Him
C. Pudding
D. None of the above
E. Denies He ever knew us (even though He once did)?

P.S. Paul was referring to a pre-existing commonly known Christian hymn in verses 11-13 (to make his point to Timothy).
Kinda like (but not exactly) me saying to you: Wondering, don’t you know that - If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

Here is what Paul was referring to -


But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33



JLB

 

[ezra]

Agreed.
God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny His nature ad His conditions.

there is numerous and i do mean numerous scriptures that shows the security of salvation . the old argument 1. teaching of eternal security is dangerous . 2. it gives a license to sin. while i am not pro Bono osas like southern baptist or few the other baptist teach.. i am very secure in my salvation . its called being mature in Him . the teaching of eternal security if taught right is correct . the arguments of 1 and 2 in not correct the license to sin is not Bible
Romans 6 the entire chapter covers the practicing of sin wrong.. if we are practicing sin on a daily bases .red flags go up . on the other hand we have this scripture .
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
i look at it this way when driving i can have a wreck ..but rather than focus on the wreck. i focus on driving so i dont wreck .john 10:10 Christ came to give us abundant life . focus on that by keeping our eyes on the prize the finish line .

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=KJV

 

[ezra]

However, Those who become lost must repent and return or remain lost.

so can any one pinpoint to the exact point we are lost again by using scripture .

 

[JLB]

so can any one pinpoint to the exact point we are lost again by using scripture .

From whose perspective?

I believe to pinpoint the exact point a person who belongs to the Lord, then becomes lost, is up to us.


When we look at scripture with a pure motive of seeking the truth, we are looking at things from the Lord’s perspective, not necessarily our own.


I think we can get a good idea about this subject from listening to what the Lord says about it.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


The steps to restoring a brother -

• “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Based on what Jesus is teaching us here, I would say it’s the moment the person refuses to hear the Church’s call for him to repent.




JLB