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A Biblical Conflict

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How about this. I replied earlier that God is faithful. God will not forsake us (Deuteronomy 31:6-8, Hebrews 13:5). I referenced the prodigal son as an example. He took his inheritance, left the fold, and went out on his own. As far as his father was concerned he was lost (dead in some translations) but despite that, the father remained faithful and when the son finally realized his error and in humility came back to his father, his father welcomed him with open arms, rejoicing that he was once again no longer lost (dead in some translations). Nowhere in that parable does it talk about the father going after the son. When the son left, he was dead as far as the father was concerned.
Yes, this works well.
Why? Because the Father, as our Father in heaven, remained true to HIMSELF in that He did accept the son back...He did maintain His promise to forgive...He did maintain His promise to save the lost son that had returned.

God will always be faithful to Himself, to His nature, and to HIS promises.
 
This isn't a scriptural answer, or even an answer that is in reference to 2 Timothy 2. So for that I apologize. I wrote it a while ago, concerning some thoughts that sometimes show up inside of me. But I think it fits the context of being Christian, but having struggles in faith, or having walked away for a time, or of any failure in our walk in faith.
___________________

A wish among wishes. Beyond most dreams and hopes is the final hope, the lasting wish. That I might be found in your name, and have a home in your Kingdom. What a hope that could be.

But on each day, I see my faults, and my strong weaknesses. I see every reason to not keep me and not want me. And some days I discover new reasons and new faults. What could become of someone like me. In an imperfect world I am a failure, and my frustration fills me with fear that I will break all my bridges and only have myself to blame.

Oh what is there that in my greatest hope there lies my greatest fear. That you would not pick me, and would not know me.
__________________________

... It's worth sharing that while writing and finishing this, I felt a mix of sadness and love. I think God won't abondon us, and He knows our weaknesses. At least that is my hope. Otherwise what other hope is there? I've once fallen away due to a depression where I distanced myself from anyone, God included. If that can happen once, it can happen again. I have to hope on God because both everyday failures and the big ones that happen less often can be a source of great worry. "Am I really saved," "was I ever saved," "does God love me;" are all the kinds of thoughts after seeing our own failures and worrying about a great change in our relationship with God.

Hope on God, cling to Him. Because there's too much in us to not be reliable about.
God doesn't abandon us because we're depressed and can hardly take care of ourself, let alone think about church or anything else.
But He knows if our desire is to be with Him,,,and it's that desire that counts. Depression deadens our feelings, at least those that are good, and satan uses it to strike at us, and it does certainly work, but even in our depression we should not give satan the victory. I like Philippians 4:8 even when in the pit, think of things above.

We all fail, that does not mean we're not saved. Abandonment of God must be intentional, thought out, and final, for it to be true abandonment.
 
What’s to explain and where’s the seeming conflict?
It’s only those that don’t know the answer to the following question, where’s there a conflict it seems with v11 and 13: Deny us what???

People assume all kinds of things are the right answer. Anything from denying us pudding (or a new car) to denying us salvation (which isn’t in the Text). If you let the context decide, however, it’s easy to see what He will deny us of however (even in the English but even more so in the Greek);

if we endure, we will also reign with him​
if we deny him, he also will deny us​

Enduring misfortunes results in reigning with Him.

Denying Him results in Him denying us that reigning with Him. They even rhyme (in the Greek).
So if we deny Him, we will not reign with Him.
This means we will not end up in heaven with Him?

Verse 13, which you do not want to handle, says that even if we are not faithful...HE will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

So what does verse 13 mean?
According to you, it means that He will reign no matter what.
Is this what you mean?
 
there are many things i do not understand in scripture.. i once heard it said like this its not the things i dont understand that bothers me. its the things i do understand that does
 
So if we deny Him, we will not reign with Him.
It’s called exegesis. Interpretation of the Text by analysis of it’s content (not some other context or one’s presuppositions). To deny Him in this context is to not endure through great persecution, imprisonments etc. Paul or Timothy could have simply stopped their ministry short of serving to their death (i.e. not endured). It’s an assumption that the hymn is about denying His Deity. In this case, the content is about reigning with Him (sharing thrones) not entrance into Heaven.
This means we will not end up in heaven with Him?
Nope. Reigning does not mean ending up in Heaven. It means reigning with Him. Just like it says. It’s eisesges to assume it means not ending up in Heaven.
Verse 13, which you do not want to handle,
I don’t want to handle??? You sure you know what I don’t want?
So what does verse 13 mean?
Just what it says.


According to you, it means that He will reign no matter what.
Nope. It means Timothy had a choice as to whether he’d reign with Jesus or not. Continue his ministry while enduring all the persecution even to death means he’d regin with Jesus. Stopping his ministry short means he’d not reign with Jesus, yet still be a part of His body.

Remember it’s all one lyrical saying. Starting at v11, not 12. It has four lines, similar to:

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet
And so are you.

If you start out skipping the first line, you miss the point.


if we died-with Him, we will also live-with Him
if we are enduring, we will also reign-with Him;
if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us
if we are faithless, that One remains faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself.

As for the ending line, it rhymes with the opening:

If you’ve died with Him, you are a part of Him. His body, His bride! Paul’s told Timothy and the church this before.

For no one ever hated his own flesh, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are body-parts of His body.
Ephesians 5:29-30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 5:29-30&version=DLNT

Therefore, He cannot deny Himself (His body)! Even if you have lesd faith than Paul did.

It’s a love song/poem (the whole thing) with a special reward-desert (pudding) for those saints who endure great trials and persecutions (like Him) such as Paul and Timothy did. There’s zero conflict!
 
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the Holy spirit does prick our heart when we done q wrong/sinned . but sometimes we are hardheaded and ignore . this is where paul wrote quench not the spirit .. but never the less you made a good point
that is a different point of view ..but you explained one part and it is only minor
Well I do agree we get pricked, but if we are getting pricked it's something that has already or is being revealed. I do hear and remember the verses you mention, and do not think they contend, but rather compliment. Take David for instance, when he murdered. Now David, having the Holy Spirit, either ignored or wasn't cued to the fact he had a hand in doing something wrong. It took a delivery through Nathan to make David realize.

While quenching is a NO, it is part of growth we all test. Pretty much everyone who has been around for any length of time has a story of when they ignored God.

People who already have revelation from God but stand in total defiance of it is not what I was talking about when I said "sin on their plate".

Thank you for your call to clarify.
 
John 10:27 King James Version (KJV)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me
:
What if a BAC doesn't hear Jesus' voice?
What if a Jesus doesn't know (approve of) a BAC?
What if a BAC doesn't follow Him?

C'mon, guys, wake up, and get a life!

BACs have a God-given free will ... they are NOT robots.
They can CHOOSE to fall away, which will cause them
to fall from grace, draw back to perdition, etc.
 
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that is MAJOR disagreement.. trials are there to make us /the refiners fire.. peter is encouraging those going through tough times , he is not saying you better shape up or you will lose your salvation . i am not advocating eternal security . what i am advocating is even though we may not hold up good under trials and at times feel like throwing in the towel giving up . if every one would be honest they all have given up. then the holy spirit in us comes in and fixes our heart . in the 20 years i been in the ministry i have said many times i quit. the Bible says ROMANS 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, the law never could fix a thing but Grace will fix it all ..

I'm not talking about God keeping us from trials and tribulations as it's through these things we are to become even more faithful to Him as we trust Him in all things. I'm only addressing where you said our spiritual inheritance is kept by the power of God.

Scripture says in 1 Peter 1:5 it is we who are of Christ's own that are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (Christ) that comes in the last day. It's the same as Matthew 24:13 that all who are of Christ that will endure all trials and tribulations, even if we are persecuted to death, Matthew 10:28, for the sake of Christ we are saved from being cast into the lake of fire as our names are found in the Lamb's Book of Life, Rev 21:27. Our inheritance is the New Jerusalem where will will have eternal life with the Father and His Son Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we deny Christ, if we believe not in who Christ said he is, then do we really think we have a place with Him in the New Jerusalem, I think not as in this scenario one never knew Him to begin with.

Peter denied Christ at first, even three times, but it was because he knew not who Christ truly was at that time and still being in the flesh feared for his own life. After being filled with the Holy Spirit Peter stumbled and fell short at times and denied parts of God's commands, but was soon corrected by the Holy Spirit and accepted the correction.

To deny something is to oppose or to reject. This is the same with Christ who will deny anyone entrance into the kingdom of God that are not His own. Jesus came for a purpose of God's plan of salvation for all who will receive Him and He will be faithful to that plan until He returns.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
 
where you said our spiritual inheritance is kept by the power of God.
and it is kept by the power. how well do you endure ? im not talking about living a life of sin. peter is not addressing that .these people was going through heavy trails/ persecution . possibly during a Nero era .they was faced with physical for being a christian ..your not going to lose your salvation if you dont do good in hard times . 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

encouragement encouragement encouragement hope to the end . not like the Corinthian church out of control
 
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we deny Christ, if we believe not in who Christ said he is, then do we really think we have a place with Him in the New Jerusalem, I think not as in this scenario one never knew Him to begin with.

Peter denied Christ at first, even three times, but it was because he knew not who Christ truly was at that time and still being in the flesh feared for his own life. After being filled with the Holy Spirit Peter stumbled and fell short at times and denied parts of God's commands, but was soon corrected by the Holy Spirit and accepted the correction.

To deny something is to oppose or to reject. This is the same with Christ who will deny anyone entrance into the kingdom of God that are not His own. Jesus came for a purpose of God's plan of salvation for all who will receive Him and He will be faithful to that plan until He returns.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
disagree with you on peter .remember Christ said who do you say i am peter said your the Christ .. peter had knowledge peter denied out of fear .yes peter failed Christ yes peter failed himself. yes the roster had crow 3 times .to show him what Christ had said to him. on the day of Pentecost he it right with the anointing 3 thousand souls saved . i am well aware of what rejecting is in peter in that chapter doing is hang in there --hope to the end
 
Throwing my chip on the pile of there being not even an appearance of conflict in 2 Timothy 2:12-13.

Peter lost faith while walking on actual water. He also denied the Lord three times. People go through stuff. God is faithful and wasn't done with Peter just like He isn't done with people going through that same stuff now. Everyone dies with unresolved sin on their plates.


Peter repented and came back to the Lord.

Judas did not but went and hanged himself.


If we sin, we need to repent and confess our sin and be forgiven.



JLB
 
and it is kept by the power. how well do you endure ? im not talking about living a life of sin. peter is not addressing that .these people was going through heavy trails/ persecution . possibly during a Nero era .they was faced with physical for being a christian ..your not going to lose your salvation if you dont do good in hard times . 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

encouragement encouragement encouragement hope to the end . not like the Corinthian church out of control

If you are going to reply to me please use the full quote of what I am addressing as I said, "I'm only addressing where you said our spiritual inheritance is kept by the power of God." You cut off the first part of that to make it look like I was agreeing with you and I am not about who or what is kept by God. Please refer back to my post #90 as this is what I am trying to discuss with you.

What do you make of these two verses as they are the same as 2 Timothy 2:12, 13.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
 
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disagree with you on peter .remember Christ said who do you say i am peter said your the Christ .. peter had knowledge peter denied out of fear .yes peter failed Christ yes peter failed himself. yes the roster had crow 3 times .to show him what Christ had said to him. on the day of Pentecost he it right with the anointing 3 thousand souls saved . i am well aware of what rejecting is in peter in that chapter doing is hang in there --hope to the end

What about those who walk in fear during the time of God's great wrath that have always seemed to have trusted in Christ, but will deny Christ to save their own life or their families life and take the mark of the beast.

There are thousands today that are being persecuted to death for the sake of Christ who have been horrendously tortured to death. These are they that have stood grounded in faith as they have trusted Christ with their very soul. It's easy to say you will never deny Christ when things are going good, but when it hits the fan many have denied/renounced Christ in their life as they have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and there is no forgiveness for that, Mark 3:28-30. It all comes down to lack of knowledge, Hosea 4:6, 7.
 
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