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StoveBolts

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#21
It's still in a staff discussion, but I'm guessing if a new sub-forum was created, it would be a Christian sub-forum, not just a YEC one.

Do we start having different sub-forums for all the major denominations now? Why do we wish to further divide the Body? I would have thought the area of science is where we need to be united the most at the moment.
Nick,

Christian Sub Forum or not, it sounds like you and the rest of the staff won't support a YEC subforum.

Christians should be united in many area's, but we are not. I understand that both you and Free don't believe in a literal 6 day creation, and that neither of you support a YEC view. That is fine, you are both free to believe that and we will remain in disagreement about that. But that does not mean that I should have to argue with either of you, let alone anyone else about it. You see, I, nor anyone else should have to constantly defend every post. It takes the fun out of learning and creates an environment where somebody can't afford to be wrong, because if they are, they loose the argument. At the least, it pits "us" against "them". When we are pitted against each other in arguments, we become further separated and does nothing to unite us. No, it creates hard feelings and stifles growth as prideful boasts and arrogance bubbles to the top. Frankly, I'm tired of it.

Other Christian forums do have separate forums for each denomination. If that is the staff's direction, then so be it as I always have the option to avoid a particular forum if I choose. But at least I have a choice. If you choose to create an OEC forum, that's ok too. Personally, I have no desire to go poking around in there. If people want to argue about it, let them go into the Science pit and duke it out like they have been for how many years now?
 
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#23
Agreed.

And at the very least, just make a forum and keep arguments out of it. I don't poke my nose into things in the Christian only section that I disagree with because my opinion won't be welcomed and will be seen as a argument. Same thing here.
 
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#24
If there is to be no arguing or no challenge to points being made then what is the point?
 
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#26
If there is to be no arguing or no challenge to points being made then what is the point?
What's the point of the Christian only forum? It is very clearly stated that the forum is not for debate. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=20567

The point is education. I want to learn about this stuff. I've TRIED before in the appropriate forum but my attempts were futile because some people simply cannot respect the idea of educating oneself. Instead I got a bunch of garbage and I didn't learn anything except to avoid those kinds of people.
 
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#27
What's the point of the Christian only forum? It is very clearly stated that the forum is not for debate. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=20567
I'm aware of what the Christian only forum is for. That's not what I was asking.

Pard said:
The point is education. I want to learn about this stuff. I've TRIED before in the appropriate forum but my attempts were futile because some people simply cannot respect the idea of educating oneself. Instead I got a bunch of garbage and I didn't learn anything except to avoid those kinds of people.
If it is YEC you want to learn about, there are numerous resources on the Internet. But if it is how science and Christianity relate, then education is found through learning about the variety of views on a given subject, even opposing ones. Insulating oneself from opposing views and discussing only one view is approaching indoctrination. That view may or may not be correct and to simply keep discussing an incorrect view as though it is correct is to do a great disservice to oneself.

The pursuit of truth necessarily entails considering all points of view, or at least as many as possible, in order to make an informed and educated decision.

A similar argument is that of which Bible version to use. If one wants to believe there is only one true version, then they may just end up believing in unicorns. But if one is actually interested in what the Bible says, two versions are better and many versions are even more beneficial.
 

StoveBolts

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#28
Free said:
If there is to be no arguing or no challenge to points being made then what is the point?
The point is some of us are tired of all the arguing and being challenged on our young earth belief. It is not a matter of science to us where it is to be argued around every corner.

Do you go to church to argue your differences, or do you go to a church where they are in line with what you believe in regard to how the bible is being interpreted? I don't go to the RCC for mass every week to argue with them about their doctrines over the wine or the bread, praying to saints etc. I'm all grown up now Free just like you and I can make my own educated decisions. So I choose to surround myself with like minded people who build each other up, and I try to avoid conflict with those I disagree about.

I believe in a 6 day creation and I believe the earth isn't much older than 6,000 years. If I'm going to argue about this, then it will be with somebody who also has these core beliefs because that's the direction in which I want to learn. In other words, we have a solid base line with solid boundaries. Trying to get everything crammed into 6,000 years is hard enough, I don't need the debate over the earth being 4.5 billion years added to the task.

Free said:
If it is YEC you want to learn about, there are numerous resources on the Internet. But if it is how science and Christianity relate, then education is found through learning about the variety of views on a given subject, even opposing ones. Insulating oneself from opposing views and discussing only one view is approaching indoctrination. That view may or may not be correct and to simply keep discussing an incorrect view as though it is correct is to do a great disservice to oneself.
Correct me if I am wrong, but what I hear you saying is that since you believe in an old earth, you'll not have us talking unbridled and unchallenged about a young earth lest we become indoctrinated with this incorrect view of scripture.

The reality is this though Duane. For those of us who don't want to argue with Atheists and other Christians like yourself about a young earth vs. old earth, evolution etc, all your doing is moving our discussions and learning elsewhere.
 

StoveBolts

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#29
What's the point of the Christian only forum? It is very clearly stated that the forum is not for debate. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=20567

The point is education. I want to learn about this stuff. I've TRIED before in the appropriate forum but my attempts were futile because some people simply cannot respect the idea of educating oneself. Instead I got a bunch of garbage and I didn't learn anything except to avoid those kinds of people.
Pard,
This is one of my favorite passages of scripture because it can be applied is so many different situations.

Proverbs 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.
 
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#30
agreed ,jeff as per our often phone discussion. @ free. i am the lone , to my knowledge, amil/partial preterist in my church. we have a propecy class and its a futurists one. i can go and listen easily but i wont argue in my church, oh but i have engaged one man that will listen and we learn.

why cant it be the same here with those that are yec?shoot if we did a discussion on genesis and jeff and moi posted the jewish stuff he has read and im reading i KNOW few on this forum would agree with the statements he nor i would come here to say.

christianity and like the jews before them never agreed on much. when they did agree it was because a move of god that line them up. yes they had things in common as today but read up on some simple things that the jews argued over. the simple placement of the menorah in the temple near the Holy of Holies isnt agreed upon.
 
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#31
There is a place for debate and there is a place for discussion among like minds. Church is a place for the later and everywhere else is the place for the former.

Where I live you don't argue unless you and the other person have agreed to make an argument out of it. It's rude to argue or to debate with someone's opinion without getting permission. That's the culture I live in. I argue on here because it's pretty well assumed that people post and expect confrontation, but I am generally a very non-argumentative person.

Further, I don't do well in the science section because I frankly don't know much about science and I can't learn anything from like minds in there for the same reason that you don't put a person trying to learn English into a literature class reading "La Morte'd Arthur".I can read articles, sure, but a lot of them go over my head and then I need to ask questions, and when I do I don't get answers I get "That answer is wrong, so let me tell you what I feel is right."
 
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Nick

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#32
The staff are still discussing this. YEC or Christian sub-forum have not been ruled out yet.


Nick,

Christian Sub Forum or not, it sounds like you and the rest of the staff won't support a YEC subforum.
I will go with a combination of staff and community concensus. Final decision has not been made.

Christians should be united in many area's, but we are not. I understand that both you and Free don't believe in a literal 6 day creation, and that neither of you support a YEC view. That is fine, you are both free to believe that and we will remain in disagreement about that. But that does not mean that I should have to argue with either of you, let alone anyone else about it. You see, I, nor anyone else should have to constantly defend every post. It takes the fun out of learning and creates an environment where somebody can't afford to be wrong, because if they are, they loose the argument. At the least, it pits "us" against "them". When we are pitted against each other in arguments, we become further separated and does nothing to unite us. No, it creates hard feelings and stifles growth as prideful boasts and arrogance bubbles to the top. Frankly, I'm tired of it.
True, but isn't it also prideful to create an exclusive forum because subscribers of that view are unwilling to defend it against supposedly Biblical and scientific untruths which other (in your words, Jeff) "Christians" hold?

I'm not sorry at all in pointing out that I'm a "Christian" to you, Jeff. I find it odd that you embrace discussion and debate with atheists, and yet wish to segregate yourself from other believers who don't believe in a Young Earth. I just don't get it.

Other Christian forums do have separate forums for each denomination. If that is the staff's direction, then so be it as I always have the option to avoid a particular forum if I choose. But at least I have a choice. If you choose to create an OEC forum, that's ok too. Personally, I have no desire to go poking around in there. If people want to argue about it, let them go into the Science pit and duke it out like they have been for how many years now?
I assume you're talking about ChristianForums.com, which is a much larger website, so it is more practical for them to do so. Having said that, I don't necessarily agree with how they run things over there.
 

Sparrowhawke

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#33
I noticed this thread and thought I'd put my two-cents in. The existing sturcture is okay and I don't think that creating a sub-forum for a "special interest group" would serve our best interest. Occasional statements by the moderators that this is a "Christianity and Science" forum where all forms of Christian beliefs are allowed (encouraged) might help.

My personal belief (that the earth was created in 6 days) is easy enough to defend. I just say, "God is not a liar." But I do understand that it can be frustrating sometimes. It seems at times that purposeful disruption tactics are used. Some members come in and demand answers to their questions not related to the topic.

Sometimes it seems that the area is undermoderated. Not trying to disrespect Free or his efforts, but he is only one guy. Disrespect to other members by taking things off topic and being disruptive is against the existing rules. Moderators already have the authority to remove members (ban them). Maybe the ban-hammer could be used (starting with a 1-day ban) to enforce the existing rules?

But what we have to consider here is that the complaint (pardon guys) about non-YEC's being disruptive isn't always the predominant case. Can it really be said that the reason that the conversation didn't go the way the YEC OP wanted is because of atheist or OEC interference? Maybe it's just because no other YEC member was interested enough to reply?

Seems to me that in the scenario described where a couple members were having a productive conversation about their shared beliefs and somebody came in for the purpose of being disruptive and if they didn't heed polite requests to allow the conversation to flow in the direction of the intention of the Original Post, they could be reported, warned, banned (I suggest 1-day ban), the offending posts could be removed, etc.

The alternative of creating a sub-forum for a specific belief would open the gate for other requests. Imagine a sub-forum for every possible belief. If I were a Saducee, would you support my desire to have a sub-forum for people who don't believe in the resurrection? Why not? Is it because you think my belief is unbiblical? Of course that is the case, but who's to decide ultimately what is and isn't a biblical belief? What about a Preterist sub-forum, or a Futurist sub-forum? Maybe that's the future here but I'd be slow to go there.
 
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Nick

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#34
I noticed this thread and thought I'd put my two-cents in. The existing sturcture is okay and I don't think that creating a sub-forum for a "special interest group" would serve our best interest. Occasional statements by the moderators that this is a "Christianity and Science" forum where all forms of Christian beliefs are allowed (encouraged) might help.

My personal belief (that the earth was created in 6 days) is easy enough to defend. I just say, "God is not a liar." But I do understand that it can be frustrating sometimes. It seems at times that purposeful disruption tactics are used. Some members come in and demand answers to their questions not related to the topic.

Sometimes it seems that the area is undermoderated. Not trying to disrespect Free or his efforts, but he is only one guy. Disrespect to other members by taking things off topic and being disruptive is against the existing rules. Moderators already have the authority to remove members (ban them). Maybe the ban-hammer could be used (starting with a 1-day ban) to enforce the existing rules?

But what we have to consider here is that the complaint (pardon guys) about non-YEC's being disruptive isn't always the predominant case. Can it really be said that the reason that the conversation didn't go the way the YEC OP wanted is because of atheist or OEC interference? Maybe it's just because no other YEC member was interested enough to reply?

Seems to me that in the scenario described where a couple members were having a productive conversation about their shared beliefs and somebody came in for the purpose of being disruptive and if they didn't heed polite requests to allow the conversation to flow in the direction of the intention of the Original Post, they could be reported, warned, banned (I suggest 1-day ban), the offending posts could be removed, etc.

The alternative of creating a sub-forum for a specific belief would open the gate for other requests. Imagine a sub-forum for every possible belief. If I were a Saducee, would you support my desire to have a sub-forum for people who don't believe in the resurrection? Why not? Is it because you think my belief is unbiblical? Of course that is the case, but who's to decide ultimately what is and isn't a biblical belief? What about a Preterist sub-forum, or a Futurist sub-forum? Maybe that's the future here but I'd be slow to go there.
Sparrow,

The Preterism forum was slightly different to this, from what I remember (which is not much). But generally I agree with you.

I do not deny the science forum (and the forums as a whole) are under-staffed. Hopefully we'll spot members we think might be good staff.

If this sub-forum is to go ahead, there would need another staff member to come aboard. Perhaps some of the people who want this YEC or Christian-only science forum so bad might be willing to help moderate it?
 

StoveBolts

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#35
Nick said:
Stovebolts said:
Christians should be united in many area's, but we are not. I understand that both you and Free don't believe in a literal 6 day creation, and that neither of you support a YEC view. That is fine, you are both free to believe that and we will remain in disagreement about that. But that does not mean that I should have to argue with either of you, let alone anyone else about it. You see, I, nor anyone else should have to constantly defend every post. It takes the fun out of learning and creates an environment where somebody can't afford to be wrong, because if they are, they loose the argument. At the least, it pits "us" against "them". When we are pitted against each other in arguments, we become further separated and does nothing to unite us. No, it creates hard feelings and stifles growth as prideful boasts and arrogance bubbles to the top. Frankly, I'm tired of it.
True, but isn't it also prideful to create an exclusive forum because subscribers of that view are unwilling to defend it against supposedly Biblical and scientific untruths which other (in your words, Jeff) "Christians" hold?
Nick,
I don't think it's prideful to have an exclusive forum at all. We have a Christians only forum so we don't have to defend our views against atheists around every corner, and we have a questions and answers forum just for atheists and the like to ask their questions. If anything, having these exclusive forums creates a better sense of harmony among the members of this site. Look at the Bible Study forum verses the AP forum as another example.

As far as being willing to defend a view, that's all the current structure of this forum as it relates to YEC affords it's members. I am not asking, nor is anyone asking that what is already in place be taken away. Currently, the structure forces me and others to consistently defend a view, and that leaves zero room for any teaching to take place in a constructive manner. Again, I point you to the idea behind the Bible Study forum and the AP forum.

Nick said:
I'm not sorry at all in pointing out that I'm a "Christian" to you, Jeff. I find it odd that you embrace discussion and debate with atheists, and yet wish to segregate yourself from other believers who don't believe in a Young Earth. I just don't get it.
Nick, I'm unsure what your talking about in regard to you having to point out that your a "Christian" to me. Apparently I've said something that you took offence to that may have inferred that you were not a Christian? A PM on the matter would have been nice. Just so you know Nick, I do not count you or Duane or Barbarian as any less of a Christian than myself. However, I hold radically different views and by way of example, I don't hang out at the Catholic Church for communion and I don't pray to saints. Obviously I hold a different view on both of their doctrines. Yet, and again by way of example I would call Joe a dear brother in Christ, and I try to go out of my way to not use particular doctrines to divide us. I recently did the same thing with Dadof10 in the AP forum, and I do it all the time in the Science forum. So as you know Nick, I have never thought of you, or Duane as anything less than a brother in Christ.

Now then, as far as embracing debates with Atheists, lets just say that I was a bit naive in the past. I have friends who are professed atheists and we can have some very candid conversations. But what I've learned, is you don't throw your pearls to swine and by that I mean I'm learning to discern between a set up question that leads to nothing other than an intellectual exercise and a question asked in sincerity. I will treat them with respect, but I'm learning to shut my mouth.

So why do I wish to segregate myself from those Christians that believe in an old earth. Simply, I don't, and that's why I've asked the Science forum to stay just as it is.

What we have been asking is that for those that have an interest in a young earth, that we have a sanctuary where we can learn and grow from each other without having to defend every question or have an alternative view that is so radically different than how we interpret the bible as creating the earth in 6 literal days.

Let me end by saying this. I can already feel the tension in this thread, and I have felt the tension between Duane and I not only in this thread, but also in the Science forum. Do I just keep my hand over my mouth to keep the peace, or do I jump right in and argue which we all know is fantastic for building relationships?

In summary, I had no idea this simple request would be belabored to such an extent. Had I known, I would have kept my mouth shut and stayed away from this OP, like so many others I stay away from.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff
 

Sparrowhawke

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#36
Sparrow,

The Preterism forum was slightly different to this, from what I remember (which is not much). But generally I agree with you.

I do not deny the science forum (and the forums as a whole) are under-staffed. Hopefully we'll spot members we think might be good staff.

If this sub-forum is to go ahead, there would need another staff member to come aboard. Perhaps some of the people who want this YEC or Christian-only science forum so bad might be willing to help moderate it?
Oh, I re-read my post and perhaps I didn't say it right. By "ban" what I meant was "banned from the Christianity-Science" forum for a day. Not banned from the entire forum. That's a slap on the wrist would have result. At minimum the members who were being harassed would have a day of peace and the offender would have a day to think about it.
 

Free

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#37
The alternative of creating a sub-forum for a specific belief would open the gate for other requests. Imagine a sub-forum for every possible belief. If I were a Saducee, would you support my desire to have a sub-forum for people who don't believe in the resurrection? Why not? Is it because you think my belief is unbiblical? Of course that is the case, but who's to decide ultimately what is and isn't a biblical belief? What about a Preterist sub-forum, or a Futurist sub-forum? Maybe that's the future here but I'd be slow to go there.
This sums up my view as well. Creating sub-forums for specific beliefs causes further division instead of unity and is precisely what is wrong with the Western Church, evangelicalism in particular. If a teaching in a sub-forum isn't correct, then what? It just keeps getting taught and believed by those in that sub-forum with no possibility of correction.

All truth claims must be prepared to be defended. That is what learning and the search and pursuit of truth is about. To shut out other voices is to think we've arrived at the truth and close our minds to any other possibilities. All minds should remain open until Christ returns.
 

Free

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#39
Then nothing, since we can't agree on YEC or OEC, there is no "correct" or "incorrect", is there?
It does seem that way but there is clearly a view that is correct and it could be anywhere in between YEC and OEC. The thing is we shouldn't shut out what others have to say, such as perfectly legitimate understandings of Scripture which say something quite different from our beliefs. Isolating ourselves in such a way as to shut out all other views is to say "we're correct."