A Statement From A Recently Turned Non-Christian

[Inviolable]

I have grown tired of this kind of post where you state:

• 'I did look for it and couldn't find it';
• 'There are passages'.

If you can't find a passage, please don't make a post until you find that passage and state where it can be located. These kinds of nebulous posts do not assist us in discussion.

They dont assist you, because you've never seen it. And I think I'll post whatever I want. And also, its the only time you've seen me post it because its like my 6th post here. If you're saying it in general then please do us the favor of taking off your (Edited, ToS 2.3, vulgar language and ToS 2.4, inflammatory remark. Obadiah) and letting us know what you mean.

 

[OzSpen]

They dont assist you, because you've never seen it. And I think I'll post whatever I want. And also, its the only time you've seen me post it because its like my 6th post here. If you're saying it in general then please do us the favor of taking off your (Edited, ToS 2.3, vulgar language and ToS 2.4, inflammatory remark. Obadiah) and letting us know what you mean.

It can't assist me or anyone else until you tell us exactly what it is and which verses you refer to.

Paul's exhortation to Titus and to us is: 'You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine' (Tit 2:1 NIV).

 

[Inviolable]

(Post temporarily removed from public view for violations of ToS 2.4 until mods of this forum can review it. Obadiah)

 

[OzSpen]

(Post temporarily removed from public view for violations of ToS 2.4 until mods of this forum can review it. Obadiah)

Thank you for doing this. It was flaming/goading me.

Oz

 

[Choir Loft]

I have recently left Christianity. March 30th to be exact. Information that I had discovered that day by accident was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'll give you some back round on my life. I wasn't raised in a strong Christian house in my early life. My dad seemed to have a belief in God but his lifestyle didn't match up being that he was an abusive drunk. My mother seemed to have little to no belief. My dad became in trouble with the law and found God in prison. When he got out I was taken to a variety of churches until my Dad found one that fit his beliefs. I went for a few years, then I stopped and never really went back or to any other church. In my early adult life I got more into my Christian religion and reading the bible, listening to the bible, watching biblical shows, documentaries, movies, reading apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, early church history, early Jewish history, you name it. I never felt that churches represented what I believed by reading the bible. I also didn't believe that God existed in the formation of any of the denominations. I didn't let anything get in the way of my beliefs. Scientific issues never got in the way of my beliefs. I could always find debunkers of scientific contradictions and attacks as well as opposing scientists with differing scientific information. I could always get past secular histories conflicting with biblical histories being that the victors writing history as well as even looking at it with a conspiratory eye giving priority to the biblical(I also did this with the scientific). I could get past virtually all ancient cultures having a flood story and many cultures having a creation story, many of them seeming older than the Hebrew's. You could always say, well the Hebrews only wrote it down on papers so the papers decentagrated where other cultures had stone tablets and such things that lasted longer in antiquity. For Christianity I could get past the fact that there were other older religions and philosophies that contain similar Christian happenings of Jesus in the Gospels as well as his sayings. I thought something similar to Justin Matyr's reasoning that the devil counterfeited the information to man before the actual happenings to cause doubt in the real story except I differed that it wasn't the devil but angel human hybrids with heavenly knowledge that knew of Christ and that he would eventually come that what would happen. The only thing that I could not reconcile is information that I discovered that it appears that the Flavian Roman Dynasty created the Gospels which started as a satirical work as well as a pacification psychological operation. This theory is considered by scholars as not accurate, Christian or secular. It is also rejected by many mythicists. Regardless of what "experts" feel, in my heart, I knew this was true after reading a couple books on the evidence as well as a few documentaries and interviews combined with I saw how it was used by governments and empires as enslavement and mind control. I'm not writing this to be convinced otherwise of my beliefs. That is not possible. I'm writing it as an explanation of how I used to be a Christian(saved about 22 years ago) albeit an unconventional one, an active member here for some time, to now being an agnostic. I won't post any links to my reasoning of my beliefs as this is a Christian site and I don't want to tear people away from their religion. Trust me, I'd rather have J.C. by my side and eternal life in heaven. I just no longer feel this is the situation. As a Christian I've always been a seeker of truth and that's how I've come to my conclusions. Now I have nothing, and I'm learning how to live with that. I still have my morality, likes and dislikes, etc. I also don't feel I wasted my life. I am learning how to convert my beliefs and philosophies into a positive direction.

You are not seeking truth, despite your claims otherwise. You have done yourself a disservice.

Instead you have abandoned your moral, spiritual and philosophical anchor and like a ship without a rudder or anchor you WILL be tossed violently from one thing to another until you are heaved upon some pile of rocks. If you do not seek the Kingdom of God with all your mind and heart and soul you risk losing everything including your own soul.

You are no scholar, sir, despite your thin use of references. You seek only to justify the lusts and desires of your heart, which even secular minds acknowledge to be corrupt and untrustworthy.

I am not attempting to support the corruption of Christendom or the Protestant church (which, like its Catholic cousins, claims all truth), but I am trying to give warning against abandoning the love of Christ and discipleship in Him. Only He can save you. Your opinions and objections will only lead you to confusion and disaster for it is not in man to know the things that lead to salvation. This is why we are called to trust and obey Jesus.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[smaller]

I kind of had to laugh at the "Flavian Mind Control" theory of the Gospel, used to dispel same. I've looked at the presentations awhile back, just for kicks. It's really so weak on so many counts I had to finally put it down as just another incredible tale concocted by someone who hasn't a clue about scripture.

Most of these attacks are on the O.T., but this particular one was oddly on the N.T. Where the tale derails is on the fact that the bulk of the N.T. resides upon the O.T., which the author, Joseph Atwell, apparently didn't realize, when he tries to make his case that the N.T. was an allegorical concoction of the Roman conquerer Titus. Except that the signature features that define if a N.T. writer had laid his groundwork solidly upon the O.T. are not easy marks to hit. I doubt very much that any concoction of unbelieving Roman scholars or Jewish turncoat, Josephus, could have cracked through those marks and hit them as the N.T. writers did. His connections with a Roman war campaign by Titus Flavius to the Gospel are utter nonsense connections. Of course Atwell claims these connections are crystal clear when they are entirely pure mythology on his part. About the only connections are that both Titus and Jesus were in Israel and the surrounding areas. So what? So were millions of other people, in those same areas. It really is patent absurdity, these supposed parallel's.

And from what I understand Josephus did write about Jesus which do somewhat parallel the Gospel accounts. How this would prove Atwell's claims is again, patent absurdity. If anything these accounts would verify the Gospel from a possible outside source of validity, Josephus.

I'm surprised anyone would bite on Atwells stories, quite frankly, unless they didn't have clue one about the scriptures themselves.

Probably one of the worst pieces of supposed biblical expose' I have ever seen.

A good friend of mine, who has been a believer for decades, was badly shaken in his faith by a similar proposal that is commonly taught in college and through other religious abolisment groups, such as "Zeitgeist" about correlations in pre-biblical or similar time frame historical religions to christian proposals, meaning to cast a pale on christianity as borrowed positions from religious proposals of Egypt, Sumeria, etc etc. Another nonsensical set of diatribes that take such broad strokes to try to make these supposed connections that they could be connected to just about anything in the broad sense. But it really got to him. He is finishing up college and trying to go to law school, so this is part of the religious deprogramming that a lot of educated people are subjected to in schools of supposed higher learning.

I told him we were going to have to sit down and have a nice long talk about broad concept comparisons compared to intimate details, intricately woven together.

Was the religion of Judaism a big set of lies, such lies upheld by potentially millions of Jewish people over 2 or 3 generations and NO ONE cried foul and said so? Uh, no. Two people have a hard time keeping a secret, yet alone what some claim to be fantastical sets of miraculous LIES?

Uh, no. The Jews were real people with real encounters with God in Christ, long before His Incarnation. It was not an agreement for national lies upheld by millions over generations. That claim is the real myth.

 

[Choir Loft]

potentially, this is the best day of your life. I'm not allowed to post on this site why. but if you are able to get richard wurmbrands books and read them in the next few weeks (the sooner 'maybe' better, but only Yhwh knows)
you might understand why. shalom in christ jesus the only lord and savior and true friend of sinners.

I tend to agree with the flavor of the lead post here as well as yours. When in seminary many years ago, I encountered the religious de-programming that is spoken of in the lead post. Its taken that long to percolate down into under-graduate school levels and even to community colleges to some degree. I'm an employee of a community college and am well aware of the anti-Christian pressures involved. I'm also aware of an increasing Muslim presence as well as the humanistic philosophy that so pervades classrooms, content and social gatherings.

The National Socialists in Germany worked hard to do the same thing and by the 1930's had succeeded in their agenda to rid the nation of Christian principles and rhetoric. America today has nearly completed the conversion. We have turned our backs on God and I for one will sit by and watch judgment rain down upon the land and as the old curmudgeon I am - appreciate divine justice in all its forms.

Most deny God's judgment upon the nation and fewer still realize that we are deep into it already. So be it. Let America fall, praise God. There is nothing anyone can do about it now.

"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."
- Jeremiah 7:16/11:14

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

 

[Edward]

I have recently left Christianity. March 30th to be exact. Information that I had discovered that day by accident was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'll give you some back round on my life. I wasn't raised in a strong Christian house in my early life. My dad seemed to have a belief in God but his lifestyle didn't match up being that he was an abusive drunk. My mother seemed to have little to no belief. My dad became in trouble with the law and found God in prison. When he got out I was taken to a variety of churches until my Dad found one that fit his beliefs. I went for a few years, then I stopped and never really went back or to any other church. In my early adult life I got more into my Christian religion and reading the bible, listening to the bible, watching biblical shows, documentaries, movies, reading apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, early church history, early Jewish history, you name it. I never felt that churches represented what I believed by reading the bible. I also didn't believe that God existed in the formation of any of the denominations. I didn't let anything get in the way of my beliefs. Scientific issues never got in the way of my beliefs. I could always find debunkers of scientific contradictions and attacks as well as opposing scientists with differing scientific information. I could always get past secular histories conflicting with biblical histories being that the victors writing history as well as even looking at it with a conspiratory eye giving priority to the biblical(I also did this with the scientific). I could get past virtually all ancient cultures having a flood story and many cultures having a creation story, many of them seeming older than the Hebrew's. You could always say, well the Hebrews only wrote it down on papers so the papers decentagrated where other cultures had stone tablets and such things that lasted longer in antiquity. For Christianity I could get past the fact that there were other older religions and philosophies that contain similar Christian happenings of Jesus in the Gospels as well as his sayings. I thought something similar to Justin Matyr's reasoning that the devil counterfeited the information to man before the actual happenings to cause doubt in the real story except I differed that it wasn't the devil but angel human hybrids with heavenly knowledge that knew of Christ and that he would eventually come that what would happen. The only thing that I could not reconcile is information that I discovered that it appears that the Flavian Roman Dynasty created the Gospels which started as a satirical work as well as a pacification psychological operation. This theory is considered by scholars as not accurate, Christian or secular. It is also rejected by many mythicists. Regardless of what "experts" feel, in my heart, I knew this was true after reading a couple books on the evidence as well as a few documentaries and interviews combined with I saw how it was used by governments and empires as enslavement and mind control. I'm not writing this to be convinced otherwise of my beliefs. That is not possible. I'm writing it as an explanation of how I used to be a Christian(saved about 22 years ago) albeit an unconventional one, an active member here for some time, to now being an agnostic. I won't post any links to my reasoning of my beliefs as this is a Christian site and I don't want to tear people away from their religion. Trust me, I'd rather have J.C. by my side and eternal life in heaven. I just no longer feel this is the situation. As a Christian I've always been a seeker of truth and that's how I've come to my conclusions. Now I have nothing, and I'm learning how to live with that. I still have my morality, likes and dislikes, etc. I also don't feel I wasted my life. I am learning how to convert my beliefs and philosophies into a positive direction.

Paragraphs, brother. I couldn't read it all.

 

[Barbarian]

Your path is familiar to a lot of Christians. If you are honest enough, there will be times when faith seems unable to sustain you. We call it the "dark night of the soul", and it leads, if you let it, to a stronger faith. Keep your mind open and keep moving forward. It might surprise you where you end up.

Mark 9:And Jesus saith to him: If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. [23] And immediately the father of the boy crying out, with tears said: I do believe, Lord: help my unbelief. [24] And when Jesus saw the multitude running together, he threatened the unclean spirit, saying to him: Deaf and dumb spirit, I command thee, go out of him; and enter not any more into him.

 

[Barbarian]

The National Socialists in Germany worked hard to do the same thing and by the 1930's had succeeded in their agenda to rid the nation of Christian principles and rhetoric.

Principles, yes. Rhetoric, no. On the SS belt buckles: "Gott mit Uns."

Translated: "God is on our side."

And this:
The Darker Side of Martin Luther
http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=constructing

Religion if you can pervert it, is a very effective vehicle for evil.

 

[Edward]

Yep.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time cometh that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

 

[Barbarian]

So it was with Saul of Tarsus, who thought he was serving God until he was knocked to the ground on the way to Damascus.

 

[turnorburn]

Principles, yes. Rhetoric, no. On the SS belt buckles: "Gott mit Uns."

Translated: "God is on our side."

And this:
The Darker Side of Martin Luther
http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=constructing

Religion if you can pervert it, is a very effective vehicle for evil.

You know what they say about those that live in glass houses?

tob

 

[Barbarian]

You know what they say about those that live in glass houses?

I wasn't thinking about anyone in particular here. I think most people here are sincere in their beliefs. Don't take it as a criticism.

 

[turnorburn]

I wasn't thinking about anyone in particular here. I think most people here are sincere in their beliefs. Don't take it as a criticism.

Just trying to prepare people for whats in store for them..

tob

 

[Michael74]

I I'm an employee of a community college and am well aware of the anti-Christian pressures involved.

Yes, the public school system has been waging war against the Bible. From kindergarten to graduate school. I can't imagine why Christian voters keep voting resources to it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paragraphs, brother. I couldn't read it all.

I had an epileptic seizure about half way through.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, the public school system has been waging war against the Bible. From kindergarten to graduate school. I can't imagine why Christian voters keep voting resources to it.

Here in Australia, part of the reason is that many Christians cannot afford to pay for tuition in a Christian school. There is the added problem of knowing exactly what is being taught as 'Christian' to children in private schools. However, there is significant accountability that can be raised at parent-teacher meetings and in the P&C group at the school if there are doubts about the kind of Christianity being taught.

As for the public school system, most parents Down Under do not have any other alternative.

However, this does raise the need for churches to be more proactive in equipping children, youth and adults in apologetics - particularly addressing areas that are under attack such as,
(1) The credibility and authenticity of Scripture;
(2) Evolution vs creationism in science classes;
(3) The historical Jesus and historical veracity;
(4) Evidence for the existence of the Lord God Almighty;
(5) Yahweh vs Allah;
(6) A defence against atheism.

Perhaps you can think of other areas that need attention. However, I find that many Christian students graduate from high school and enter university where their faith is attacked and they have not been equipped with answers to defend the faith by their churches.

Oz

 

[Choir Loft]

Yes, the public school system has been waging war against the Bible. From kindergarten to graduate school. I can't imagine why Christian voters keep voting resources to it.

I haven't seen any legitimate surveys on this. PEW is one of the best for religious issues and I recommend that site to anyone who wants a survey result other than Gallup polls. I've been around to many churches and my observation is that none of them have a political voice other than waving the flag on various national occasions. The same attitude was prevalent in 1930's Germany during the rise of National Socialism.

I have, however, been reviewing the wider issue of Culture Wars in the United States. Those values which are considered to be 'traditional' are being neutralized by the media and the progressive left. It should be noted here that 'traditional values' are those of honesty, working for one's living, value of one's family, religion and obeying the law of the land. These 'values' are not restricted to any ethnic group BUT they are nevertheless under attack by a minority that have no values other than their own agenda.

I could write a book, one among many on the market right now, about Culture Wars in America and globally but the bottom line is that the old ways are losing ground rapidly. We are losing ground much more rapidly than anyone guesses. Social changes that once took decades are now happening in just a few short years. Not all of them are good, either.

The church is one large organization that ought to exert its numerical influence. It hasn't and in the absence of doing so is writing its own epitaph. We are being betrayed by our own leaders who are too cowardly or have too many vested interests in remaining silent.

"The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

Perhaps a more pointed statement was made by a Protest clergyman of the past.

"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney

Six of one. Half dozen of the other. The criminals are the ones that hold their tongues.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[OzSpen]

The church is one large organization that ought to exert its numerical influence. It hasn't and in the absence of doing so is writing its own epitaph. We are being betrayed by our own leaders who are too cowardly or have too many vested interests in remaining silent.

How is it possible for the churches' numerical influence to have impact when denominations cannot agree even about the Gospel. We have beliefs from evangelical to postmodern theological liberalism. We don't speak with the same voice because of divergent views of the authority of Scripture and cultural engagement.

I urge you to get two proactivist Christians together engaging an evangelical and a theological liberal and discuss,

• homosexuality,
• abortion,
• the reliability of the Bible,
  
• the nature of Hades/hell,
• What happens at death.

That kind of discussion has convinced me there can be no consensus when there are such divergent views regarding Scripture.

Oz