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Bible Study A study on the Sabbath

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If you had clicked on the last link in the list (the apostles), you would have seen this:
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures (Acts 17:2 KJV)
Paul went to the synagogue every Sabbath, and so did Jesus
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. (Mark 1:21 KJV)

This is true, Paul does that many times, and naturally being "a Jew unto the Jews" he would do so. Later in chapter 17 Paul also addressed the Philosophers on the Aeropagus (vs. 22) or would everyday visit the synagogue and marketplace (vs. 17), and one occasion is mentioned where Paul met on the first day of the week (20:7). But knowing that Jesus and Paul both went to Synagogues on the Sabbath is a given. It's not that I am ignorant of such Scriptures, it is just that they do not constitute a statement of requirement for all Christians to do so. Jesus and Paul especially were ministers unto their people though, so they traveled often from place to place and the Synagogues were the main place to meet among the Jews and naturally the Jews met on the Sabbath. I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, just clarifying what it actually tells us concerning this subject.

As I told Elijah though earlier I do not wish to be argumentative. I, not too long ago, got into a huge discussion about the Holy Spirit that still has me searching for a fresh understanding of it, and perhaps the Sabbath will be the same way. I do not see that Sabbath observance will be impressed upon me as necessary, and at this point it would be pure legalism for me to try to 'get right' with God by doing so, but perhaps God will show me a deeper meaning and value of the Sabbath I never have seen before. That is something between me and God though that one cannot learn from a thread. I will have to spend quality time with this on my own to discern the matter. But I always do enjoy discussing these matters with others.

Nathan: do you feel that this thread has made any progress or that your understanding on anything has increased so far? You had said something to me about having the basic conviction on this issue that some esteem some days above others and some esteem all days alike. Have you come to any conclusion yet? Perhaps I too could benefit from a Scriptural conclusion to this.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
It's not the requirement that matters, it's the principle behind it. I know I have said it before, but it bears repeating; a 24hour day is a 24hour day.

We claim that no where is it "written" yet we know that there are documents that we have no knowledge of contents(epistle to the Laodicians). Now I have no clue as to what else could have been written. Is there any more needed for salvation? NO.

So it's not a matter of discovering the "lawful" way of worshiping, but rather the benefit of honoring our God and His Holiness. The righteousness attainable through the observance of it is now unatainable. That does not negate the importance of it. But maybe it does for some?

For some it is unimportant because they just want a "ticket" to heaven, a relationship is not something they desire? What if you had married a woman. She was a beautiful woman. Loved you with a love that is undescibable. What if after living with this woman you got to know her more and more. She then tells you of a 'special' day. A day that means so much to her. Would you in turn say it did not matter? It may be a special day, but you want to make this day over here special instead?

What amazes me is that we claim "no rule for Sabbath worship", but we somehow hold to a 'secrete' rule for Sunday worship? Some say "does it matter"?

Well....does it? Does God care at all? Have we ever even asked Him? Or do we just follow in the "tradition" of men before us?

Jesus had something to say to those in His day that "blindly" followed tradition.

Indeed, relationship is what matters. And as we come to know God more he will bare and reveal to us His desires, and they will eventually become our desires if we continue to walk with Him. I think the lesson here is not to be presumptuous and depend upon the traditions of men but listen to God. My heart is maleable, whether I may seem stubborn or not, and I actually prayed today that God would not allow any pride or 'puffed up knowledge' to hinder me from seeing the truth of this matter. God will weigh His hand on our conscience as guided by the Spirit as we walk with Him on matters that need to be addressed. It was my testimony earlier, not in so many elegant words, that God had not yet laid any burden of conscience on me concerning this issue (though He has for many other things), but I am sensitive to the Lord's leading and if God reveals something to me about this then I must obey.

And especially if God reveals something wonderful to me, I love to share it! But if I am to share anything I am accountable for what is taught to others and I by no means want to yoke my family, friends, or fellow church members to something foreign to Christ's way and truth, nor do I want to put a stumbling block before any weaker or new bretheren. We must not forget freedom in Christ, but we also have our responsibility to obey Jesus and his commandments. If there is any doctrine which wholly satisfies both of these things then surely it is worth sharing the wonderful news!

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Josh: In a few short words; yes, I have come a great deal further from where this started. I have learned a lot, through the Spirit bearing witness to me. I can say that because I am at peace that my "seeking" is being blessed by God through everyone involved in this discussion. God can use even evil for good. Not that I presume to think that anyone was intending evil towards me. I just rest that my heart and motives for this thead were pure and not intended for argumentative purposes.

I have to say I am quit impressed that it has been so civil. But maybe I should not be, for it just adds to the fact that He controls all things. I will share more of my heart tomorrow. The night is closing in, and there is much to do tomorrow. I hope to have the wisdom given to me to speak clearly what I have been being witnessed to by the Spirit. I know He will give it to me.
 
Indeed, relationship is what matters. And as we come to know God more he will bare and reveal to us His desires, and they will eventually become our desires if we continue to walk with Him. I think the lesson here is not to be presumptuous and depend upon the traditions of men but listen to God. My heart is maleable, whether I may seem stubborn or not, and I actually prayed today that God would not allow any pride or 'puffed up knowledge' to hinder me from seeing the truth of this matter. God will weigh His hand on our conscience as guided by the Spirit as we walk with Him on matters that need to be addressed. It was my testimony earlier, not in so many elegant words, that God had not yet laid any burden of conscience on me concerning this issue (though He has for many other things), but I am sensitive to the Lord's leading and if God reveals something to me about this then I must obey.

And especially if God reveals something wonderful to me, I love to share it! But if I am to share anything I am accountable for what is taught to others and I by no means want to yoke my family, friends, or fellow church members to something foreign to Christ's way and truth, nor do I want to put a stumbling block before any weaker or new bretheren. We must not forget freedom in Christ, but we also have our responsibility to obey Jesus and his commandments. If there is any doctrine which wholly satisfies both of these things then surely it is worth sharing the wonderful news!

God Bless,

~Josh

Freedom In Christ is FREEDOM from Sin, (Rom. 8:1) and what IS SIN? Sin IS DEFINED in 1 John 3:4 as the New Covenant N.T.'s ETERNAL LAW BREAKING. Never can any one have FREEDOM while living IN SIN! And what Command is broken makes no difference. James 2:8-12

--Elijah
 
This is going to be long. If people want to skip the backtrack, they can go directly to the last 8 paragraphs. Otherwise you can follow my train of thought. While I am addressing Josh's question, the answer is transcendent.


Nathan: do you feel that this thread has made any progress or that your understanding on anything has increased so far? You had said something to me about having the basic conviction on this issue that some esteem some days above others and some esteem all days alike. Have you come to any conclusion yet? Perhaps I too could benefit from a Scriptural conclusion to this.


Josh. What a wonderful question. It might not be that my understanding has increased, but my faith has grown? The conviction that is addressed by Paul is still my conviction. But notice what the ‘commonality’ of his statement proclaims.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.

Here is the crux. The ‘person’ is esteeming, one way or another, he is esteeming. To this extent I believe that the fact is this statement by Paul does not take away from the significance of what the Sabbath is. It does, however, point to the fact that the ‘day’ is a singular one for some, and is a plural one for others. Paul is making the statement that some will regard ‘just’ the Sabbath as a holy day, and some will regard all of their days as holy from God.

This does not take anything away from what the Sabbath is. The ‘clause’ that Paul interjects, “forâ€, in verse 7, is a clause of definition, or to clarify what his previous statements meant. And that is that none of us lives to ourselves. We are the Lords. Point blank. So, what ever we do we should be doing it for the Lord. Catch that? What ever we do we should be doing it for the Lord. And what is the “rules†that surround the magnification of the Sabbath?

13 “If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your pleasure on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the LORD honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
or seeking xyour own pleasure, or talking idly;
14 then you shall take delight in the LORD,
yand I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
afor the mouth of the LORD has spoken.â€

And Jesus would say this about it;

12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.â€

He specifically says that it is “lawful†to do good on the Sabbath. That is, to “do†good on the Sabbath. Never once do you hear, in all of His addressing criticism of the Sabbath, of His speaking about what the requirements under the Law of Moses were concerning the Sabbath. He magnified it, speaking toward the fact that the intentions of the Sabbath are very specific; for the physical rest of man, but greater still the spiritual rest He gives us in Himself.

Here is the crux. Sure, you can interpret Paul as making it seem that the Sabbath is no more better than any other day. But that is not what Paul says. He says that some will regard the Sabbath as it is, and some will regard each and every day like the Sabbath. We have taken it to mean that we can regard one other specific day as the Sabbath. But what we loose is in our regarding the ‘other’ day as they did the Sabbath, we do not really regard it like they did the Sabbath. We have in effect built our own method of observance of the day. We do not regard Sunday like they did the Sabbath.

In fact, if anything, we regard it as freedom from “bondage†not rest in Christ. Is the resurrection significant? Yes indeed it is! But our rest in Christ is more significant. I have heard it said, and I am sure some are thinking it now reading this, that Sunday IS about our rest in Christ, the ‘rest’ is freedom from bondage. But we entirely miss the point by doing that. The only way we are free is when we are IN Christ. There is no freedom apart from that. And that is what the Sabbath points too.

So here is/was my train of thought through out this study.

I began with an intense desire to understand the significance of the Sabbath. Is it significant for just Jews? And where I have come to is that it is only ‘significant’ to the Jews because it is important to God. It would be one thing if it was just a law ‘added’ to increase transgressions. But it was the first thing in existence that God made Holy. It has nothing, in its purity, to do with the Jewish people. But it has everything, in its entirety, to do with who God is.

Sure, it’s true, it is ‘written’ in the law. But does that mean just because it was written that it is not significant beyond the words written? And if it is, then would it not do us good to better understand why? So then it brought me to the law. What part of the other 10 do we not consider ‘in effect’ today? Do we consider them ‘in effect’ ONLY because they are reiterated Jesus? Because they were reiterated by the Apostles? Did He say nothing about the Sabbath? Did they not?

The conviction, where this all began, is with Paul’s addressing of the day. There is no doubt that he was speaking towards the Sabbath. The ‘definite’ article before the word “day†indicates a specific day. But…that is a BIG but…he was speaking toward the rules and regulations that surround it. If a man chooses to honor God by observing the Sabbath in the manner of ancient times, then as long as he is not doing it for righteousness sake, he is ok in it. And if a man wants to observe each and every day the same with regards to how he lives to the Lord, then he has that right. That is the whole context of that passage. What has always had me unsteady, and not rock solid, on this conviction of mine was that this is the only place we really draw the thought that the ‘Sabbath day’ is not meant for Gentile believers like it was meant for Jewish believers.

And this is true! It is not meant in the same way. It is not that we “have†to not step a foot out the door or do good on the Sabbath. But it in no way nullifies when the Sabbath is, and what specific day He made Holy. But can we not just think about the Sabbath on Sunday? I mean, if it’s not about “not doing things†then what does it matter which day is which? Here is a very simple, yet very interesting question you would need to ask yourself do certain days mean anything to you personally?

Here is a personal example. Today is my wife and I 10 year anniversary. Is there a ‘law’ that says we have to observe it on this day? Well…maybe an unspoken one. LOL. But no, there is not one. What if I were to say, and to act, each and every day the same as it was our anniversary? Would that be a bad thing? No. She would probable love it. But, what if I were to tell her that I wanted to celebrate it on a different day? That would probably not cut it. In fact, it would not.

Simple example? Yes, very simple. But we are not talking about an appointed ‘feast day’ or a day that is specific to only the Jewish heritage(Passover). We are talking about a day that God blessed and made Holy.

Ok. So then my thought is if I would be ‘putting myself’ under obligation to keep the whole law. Well, which law are we talking about? If I make it an effort on my part to be peacable with my fellow man, not easily getting angry with him, am I trying to keep myself under the 6th commandment? What if I choose to see the idolatry of putting something else before God. Am I putting myself under the 1st commandment, and therefore liable to keep the whole thing?

--continued--
 
That does not make any sense. So the thought of, by observing the Sabbath, I am putting myself under the law, and therefore am responsible to keep all of it, is just a baseless theology. So then I go back to the thought of why not just observe the Sabbath on Sunday? Well, why not observe the resurrection on the Sabbath? Then it hits me. This all makes no sense. How can I truly observe, and by observe I mean really think on and ponder the things of God the way He designed them to be, on a day other than the day He created it to be as. The significance transcends ‘time’ as we know it. The seventh day, is the seventh day. Those who worship on Sunday can make it just as much a ‘regulation’ as those who worship on the Sabbath. But what Sunday worshipers cannot do is actually worship on the Sabbath.

Does that make sense? There is no ‘ordained’ resurrection day. God did not make the resurrection day Holy, or record it anywhere that He ‘blessed’ it. Let me ask you this; is there any other name under heaven by which we can be saved? Of course not. But isn’t a name just something we call someone? But isn’t that what the new age movement is all about? Call ‘him’ Buddha, call ‘him’ Mohammad, call ‘him’ the air blowing in the trees. They say ‘he’ is one in the same. But we know better….don’t we?

No. Jesus is His name. Jesus of Nazareth. Oh, but can’t we just follow John the Baptist teaching. I mean, after all, he was a man ordained by God. No. We must follow Christ. And then it hits me. Like a ton of bricks. What is a Christian? A ‘follower of Christ’, a ‘Christ one’, ‘one like Christ’. What day did Christ regard as Holy? Did Christ ever not regard the Sabbath as Holy? Was He only regarding the Sabbath as Holy because of the Covenant? Of course not. He was not ‘under’ the covenant, and He NEVER said that the Sabbath Day, the seventh day of the literal week, was not still HOLY. Therefore, in my desire, my wanting to follow the ONLY Christ, why would I not follow in His ways?

He enacted a new covenant when He told the disciples to partake of His ‘flesh’ and ‘blood’. That new covenant annulled the old covenant of sacrificial offerings. Of the rules and regulations regarding ritualistic things that were a picture that pointed to Him. But all though out His ministry He still gave ‘guidelines’ of what to do and what not to do. Some, most, if not all, were also written in the book of the law.

Ok, then why would He knowing that we would be at this point in time questioning the Sabbath like we do, not specifically say something about it? Why do we think that He did not???

27And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.â€

Jesus the Christ specifically said, out of His own mouth, that the Sabbath (the seventh day), was made for man. Now, did He say “whatever day you want, just pick one, and let that be unto you a day of rest� No. But alas, to keep things in context, my mind thinks, “ok, so the Sabbath was made for man. But does that mean we ‘have’ to observe it? I mean, if it was made for us, can’t we do with it what we please?†Huh? How absurd is that really? God makes something for us, transcendent of ALL people groups(it was created before man), and we are going to say “no thanks�

Wow. WOW!!! Ok, now I am really not understanding why in the world we would have stopped meeting on the Sabbath day. When I say stopped, I mean stopped. Because its not like the meeting of on a Sabbath was not a thing that was in ‘practice’ already, even for the Gentile believers. And where we might not have a specific case after specific case, we do have more information to allude to the practices we ‘attend to’ today specifically attributed to what they did on the Sabbath back then.

42As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. 43And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’â€
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Notice a few things here. Number one, they were speaking on the Sabbath. Second, the next time they met it was on the Sabbath. Third, we see Jews and Gentiles the first time as well as the second time they met. So, here we have an example that the Sabbath was not a foregone thought by the Apostles. Acts 17 and Acts 18 both show the example of observing the Sabbath, at least in the way God had intended it, by doing His good pleasure. Remember, Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath.

So, then naturally we come to the question when did it change? Why did it change? Are all the accounts we see in Acts simply and only because it was just their tradition, and they were not ‘observing’ it in honor of the Lord? Colossians tells us not to let anyone judge us in a Sabbath. Now, we know that some will say it is referring to festival days, and then some say it is indeed the Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week. My thoughts ask the question, does it matter? Is that even the context that Paul is speaking too? I mean, does it matter whether we should let someone judge us in a festival Sabbath or a seventh day Sabbath? I think not. Either way, we should be living our lives to the Lord. And in the context he is speaking toward, he is addressing the regulation side of it. Do not handle, do not taste, and do not touch.

So now, my mind comes back to what the Sabbath is. In Hebrews we see it as a reference of Christ Himself being our rest. But if we look at it, it says there ‘remains’ a Sabbath rest for the people of God. And that we should strive to enter that rest. No, this in particular is not saying we should strive to be ‘keeping the Sabbath’ in a rule and regulation form. But it does say we should strive to enter it. How do we enter it? Through belief. That is the only way. And when we do, we rest from our works. What are our works? The works that we think make us righteous before God.

But, does that mean then that the Sabbath is full and no longer has meaning? Does it mean that the purpose and intention of God creating the Sabbath, making it Holy and blessing it, is done away once we believed? I thought so. I thought that by living a life of faith, we are thereby fulfilling the bigger purpose of what the Sabbath is and thought that I was leaving all of the ritualistic things out of it by doing it that way. But I still did not feel easy about it. I was not at peace.

--continued--
 
What then makes me at peace now? I am at peace because I believe the seventh day is indeed the Sabbath of our Lord. In it, by ‘observing’ it, we have a constant reminder of who God is and what He has done for us. Every literal week, there is a constant reminder of what God has done for us. Can I say, “I choose to believe that, it’s just that I am going to think about those things on Sunday.� Yes, I can say that, but it does not make much sense. Because at that point what I am doing is saying I believe in your rest, but I also want to ‘add’ some of my own feelings to it by worshiping on Sunday, the first day of the week.

So does it all boil down to what our ‘conscience’ tells us what is right? Well, I dunno about you, but my conscience will lie to me if I let it. I have to have some sort of ‘ruler’ to measure it by. I cannot get past the fact that there is no scriptural evidence to Sunday ‘ritualistic’ worship. So ok, maybe it just ‘happens’ to be the day we do it on. What’s the big deal? To that I would ask, “Yes. What is the big deal? Why not worship on the Sabbath?â€. Then I get a ah ha moment. What are the ‘advantages/disadvantages’ to Sunday verses Sabbath worship?

This might be the breaking point. This might just be the tell tale. Advantages and disadvantages are EQUAL…with the exception of one. Yes. We will all admit. A day is a day. We use the passage all too well. One day above another, all days the same. 24 hours is 24 hours. One has ‘historical’ significance. The other has ‘historical’ significance. When it comes down to all things, one could have an argument that would counter act the other. A to and fro battle can ensue, given both parties do not kill each other first.

But one thing and one thing alone breaks the two. One thing and one thing alone tips the scale. God blessed the 7th day and made it Holy. God did it. Man blessed the 1st day…and has ever since tried to make it holy. Its not about Sun-worship. It’s not about changing a day from one to the next. Its not about living as though each and every day is the same. Indeed we should live that way. What it is about is actually accepting God’s blessing, and ‘keeping’ it in our hearts. 7th day worship is our way of doing so.

Do we believe in a literal God? Do we believe in a God that does watch over us? Do we believe in a savior that came and died for us 2000 years ago? Do we believe in a literal flood? Do we believe that the Bible is true? Do we believe that God created the world and all that is in it in 6 days? If we can believe all of that, all of that, then why can we not believe that the literal 7th day that He created He also literally blessed and also literally made Holy?

What it comes down to is faith. I see the literal keeping of the Sabbath as an great act of faith. Not the literal rule and regulation keeping of it, as proclaimed in the book of the law. But the keeping of the actual 7th day as a testament of who God is, what He did, and what He has done for us. The Sabbath embodies that. Sunday does not.

Am I going to go all legalistic because of this? Nah. Does that mean you wont find me anywhere but in my bed, doing my best not to move a muscle for fear of profaning the Sabbath? Nah. What it does mean is that from now on I will be meditating on who God is, not only through out the weeks, months, and years. But especially on the Sabbaths. They will be a time of great reflection on who God is and what He has done. And they will also be a testament to me that a Sabbath day of rest is soon coming, a literal 1000 years of pure rest and enjoyment with my Lord.

Will you still find me at the local fellowship on Sundays? Sure. There are countless souls there who are searching and why would I stop going to a place where I know people want to know the truth. I know the truth. I have peace. There is no legalism involved. Just a deeper devotion to Him. Why not have faith that just as He blessed it in the beginning, that He can also keep that blessing flowing to those who believe Him?

--end--
 
--Elijah here:

And FORUM, there is [[NO ONE]] on these forums that I care about above Nate. And seeing that that is so, this post will say exactly how 'i' see the last portion of the posting.

Ask yourself how that the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath had almost became non/existent? And then read on down! (see Dan. 7:25 as well)

Ask yourself why Christ required a John 10:16 verse, if it were He that was already 'in these church folds'?

Ask yourself why Inspiration has a warning in 2 OCR. 6:14-18 of not being 'unequally yoked'. And remember the first question? What about ones 'yet to be Born Again' ones children being tempted? and being called 'old Jewish legalists'?+ all of their activites even in a church school are mostly on the Lords 7th Day Sabbath? (Isa. 58:13)

And what about the Inspiration Documented in Rev. 17:1-5 as The Abomination Of The Earth???? (stay yoked to that?? That would be serious danger!)

And what about the last fatal WARNING in Rev. 18:4?? Being a Partaker is not a sin?? And sun worship is OK???
See Eze. 8:16-17 last couple of Inspired Words.

And remember forum, that the whole Jewish ex/Virgin Fold were 7th Day Sabbath professors. And that was not why Christ was rejected by them! See Isa. 5:3
 
Thanks for your conclusions Nathan! I read the ending paragraphs of it but will take time later to read the entirety of your posts. At least you have given me something to mull on now. And perhaps now is a good time for me to duck out before I speak on things which I cannot know, and I don't seek to "darken God's council" by muddling anything with words. If I have any additional thoughts I will just PM them to you.

Great discussion! :)

God Bless,

~Josh
 
--Elijah here:

And FORUM, there is [[NO ONE]] on these forums that I care about above Nate. And seeing that that is so, this post will say exactly how 'i' see the last portion of the posting.

Ask yourself how that the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath had almost became non/existent? And then read on down! (see Dan. 7:25 as well)

Ask yourself why Christ required a John 10:16 verse, if it were He that was already 'in these church folds'?

Ask yourself why Inspiration has a warning in 2 OCR. 6:14-18 of not being 'unequally yoked'. And remember the first question? What about ones 'yet to be Born Again' ones children being tempted? and being called 'old Jewish legalists'?+ all of their activites even in a church school are mostly on the Lords 7th Day Sabbath? (Isa. 58:13)

And what about the Inspiration Documented in Rev. 17:1-5 as The Abomination Of The Earth???? (stay yoked to that?? That would be serious danger!)

And what about the last fatal WARNING in Rev. 18:4?? Being a Partaker is not a sin?? And sun worship is OK???
See Eze. 8:16-17 last couple of Inspired Words.

And remember forum, that the whole Jewish ex/Virgin Fold were 7th Day Sabbath professors. And that was not why Christ was rejected by them! See Isa. 5:3


I have to say that it is very humbling to be viewed so highly. It is kept in check and understood that it is not because of me but Him who I love.

Jhn 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

This is exactly one of the many reasons that lead up to my understanding on this matter. It goes hand in hand with the idea that I previously posted with regards to the olive tree that we are grafted into. And why are the natural branches natural? Are we not all found in the same sinful state? Are we not all without righteousness of our own? What makes Jews natural and us unnatural?

I follow what you are saying up until the last statement. I do not understand. Could you please expound upon that. Isa 5:3?
 
Thanks for your conclusions Nathan! I read the ending paragraphs of it but will take time later to read the entirety of your posts. At least you have given me something to mull on now. And perhaps now is a good time for me to duck out before I speak on things which I cannot know, and I don't seek to "darken God's council" by muddling anything with words. If I have any additional thoughts I will just PM them to you.

Great discussion! :)

God Bless,

~Josh

Indeed this was a great discussion. I am so happy that it has turned out so peaceful. I trust God will work through each and everyone of our lives through this. How amazing it is to receive the promise first hand of seeking, asking, and knocking.
 
I have to say that it is very humbling to be viewed so highly. It is kept in check and understood that it is not because of me but Him who I love.

Jhn 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

This is exactly one of the many reasons that lead up to my understanding on this matter. It goes hand in hand with the idea that I previously posted with regards to the olive tree that we are grafted into. And why are the natural branches natural? Are we not all found in the same sinful state? Are we not all without righteousness of our own? What makes Jews natural and us unnatural?

I follow what you are saying up until the last statement. I do not understand. Could you please expound upon that. Isa 5:3?


--Elijah Here:
I was reentering Acts 4:12. That their was NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG men, whereby YE MUST BE SAVED. In other words [WE DO BELIEVE] that alone, the Commands of God save NO ONE, but are Lovingly Obeyed when one has been Born Again. And this Truth stands out in Isaiah 5

You wondered what I meant with this:
'And remember forum, that the whole Jewish ex/Virgin Fold were 7th Day Sabbath professors. And that was not why Christ was rejected by them! See Isa. 5:3'

Isa.5

[1] Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: (verse 7 tells one who & what Christs Virgin Vineyard, House, Sanctuary, or Church is! There was NOTHING wrong with the Vineyard's teachings)

[2] And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. (yet they still were professed 7th Day Sabbath keepers)

[3] And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, [judge, I pray you, betwixt me] and [my vineyard.] (again, this was my point. A virgin 'House' even while teaching Christ's Truth..(7th Day Sabbath keeping) yet without the Centerpiece being Christ Himself, the Eternal Gospel's [MERCY SEAT] is useless!)

[4] What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
(That is a good question? See Rev. 3:16 for ALL the Spewed out ones! some ones??!! And the answer to that is seen in Luke 19:39-40)

[5] And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
[6] And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

[7] For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is [the house] of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(yet nothing is said against Christ's VIRGIN DOCTRINES that are a copy of Heavens Sanctuary. Even note Rev. 3:16-17 CONDEMNATION is not Doctrines! )

So the point was that Christ requires a real LOVE THAT WORKS 'OBEDIENCE' FROM MOTIVE! And in John 12:42-43 we see REAL Believers choosing what over Christ??? And Nate, these ones were not sun goers but 7th Day Sabbath keepers even! And the Rev. 18:4 verse is FATAL SERIOUS TRUTH!
 
--Elijah Here:
I was reentering Acts 4:12. That their was NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG men, whereby YE MUST BE SAVED. In other words [WE DO BELIEVE] that alone, the Commands of God save NO ONE, but are Lovingly Obeyed when one has been Born Again. And this Truth stands out in Isaiah 5

You wondered what I meant with this:
'And remember forum, that the whole Jewish ex/Virgin Fold were 7th Day Sabbath professors. And that was not why Christ was rejected by them! See Isa. 5:3'

Isa.5

[1] Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: (verse 7 tells one who & what Christs Virgin Vineyard, House, Sanctuary, or Church is! There was NOTHING wrong with the Vineyard's teachings)

[2] And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. (yet they still were professed 7th Day Sabbath keepers)

[3] And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, [judge, I pray you, betwixt me] and [my vineyard.] (again, this was my point. A virgin 'House' even while teaching Christ's Truth..(7th Day Sabbath keeping) yet without the Centerpiece being Christ Himself, the Eternal Gospel's [MERCY SEAT] is useless!)

[4] What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
(That is a good question? See Rev. 3:16 for ALL the Spewed out ones! some ones??!! And the answer to that is seen in Luke 19:39-40)

[5] And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
[6] And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

[7] For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is [the house] of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(yet nothing is said against Christ's VIRGIN DOCTRINES that are a copy of Heavens Sanctuary. Even note Rev. 3:16-17 CONDEMNATION is not Doctrines! )

So the point was that Christ requires a real LOVE THAT WORKS 'OBEDIENCE' FROM MOTIVE! And in John 12:42-43 we see REAL Believers choosing what over Christ??? And Nate, these ones were not sun goers but 7th Day Sabbath keepers even! And the Rev. 18:4 verse is FATAL SERIOUS TRUTH!


PS:
The UNITING with the Rev. 17:5 ones is of satan as 'i' see it. And has always been the way that he has worked, and then comes FORCE! 666

Ask yourself how that the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath had almost became non/existent? And then read on down! (see Dan. 7:25 as well)

Ask yourself why Christ required a John 10:16 verse, if it were He that was already 'in these church folds'?

Ask yourself why Inspiration has a warning in 2 OCR. 6:14-18 of not being 'unequally yoked'. And remember the first question? What about ones 'yet to be Born Again' children, being tempted, and being called 'old Jewish legalists'?+ all of their activites even in a church school is mostly on the Lords 7th Day Sabbath? (Isa. 58:13)

And what about the Inspiration Documented in Rev. 17:1-5 as The Abomination Of The Earth???? (stay yoked to that??)

And what about the last fatal WARNING in Rev. 18:4?? Being a Partaker is not a sin?? And sun worship is OK???
See Eze. 8:16-17 last couple of Inspired Words.

And remember forum, that the whole Jewish ex/Virgin Fold were 7th Day Sabbath professors. And that was not why Christ was rejected by them! See Isa. 5:3 again!
 
I have to say that it is very humbling to be viewed so highly. It is kept in check and understood that it is not because of me but Him who I love.

Jhn 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

This is exactly one of the many reasons that lead up to my understanding on this matter. It goes hand in hand with the idea that I previously posted with regards to the olive tree that we are grafted into. And why are the natural branches natural? Are we not all found in the same sinful state? Are we not all without righteousness of our own? What makes Jews natural and us unnatural?

I follow what you are saying up until the last statement. I do not understand. Could you please expound upon that. Isa 5:3?

Good morning!;)
OK: I see by your 'postings' that you have given up your 'mod' job. I see that you have openly made a 'decision' to follow the Lord's set aside 7th Day Sabbath.

I also find that every one reading our posts can easily find that we as 'posters' very much respect each others posting. And now.. from the start, no one needs to be troubled to 'find' that satan does indeed work in many ways. He sends the ones to Christ's sincere 'subjects' (us) that he thinks that can best 'derail' these ones who are 'seeing' new Truth. The way that perhaps you or I are approached would be in opposite directions as we truely are seeming as different in personality as Joseph & Paul were, yet both at present are solid in Christ.

The 7th Day Sabbath is the point, yet, how does satan change your convictions is the point? (think about after H. Armstrong died, which was actually printed in a major USA magizine! And what his closest thought to be 'spiritual brother' that took over did.)

Well, the Lord told us about Titus 3:9-11. And seeing that this has been mentioned from both of our postings, we MUST see another approach considered to take place? And it is one of us that is at present the target.

Get ride of one of us might be the best way? (For sure we will see 2 Cor. 4:2, huh?) Which one? Surely 'both ones', but in different ways, the one that has been around with this 'teaching' the longest must be derailed also. And how does that get done to the other person?? Go personal with a lot of satan's type of love, sweet & self humbling talk to the other, and then very cunningly carry the posting into private talks, huh?? (that is a question)

And it seems that you did have a letter sent to your home address by me about this very same tactic with mod's having their own seperate thread on many sites, to privately do their thing? And that was told me by a moderator. Anyway, the verse of Gen. 49:16-17 was given as a possible sorce for backbitting?? So beware, huh? satan is lovingly cunning when it is useful against Christ's 'very ellect ones!

OK: Now about this other guy? (me) I have been around here & many sites for a GOOD number of years. And have been IN THE TRUTH (same Truth) perhaps as nearly as you are of physical age? And I would like for you to pay attention to your past & present (personal) emails especially now. Pluss the red flag that went up when you stated that you agree with some of my postings, the 7th Day Sabbath. (remember that that puts you exactly on the bottom of the Rev. 17:1-5's pile!) The RED Flag was a warning to me & for me as well.;) Matt. 10:22-27 (+ ibid. 20!) SO...? Take a peek of what [OPENLY] follows my posting from certain ones who are 'your' seemingly your friends for awhile at least???

Again it is the PERSON OF THE POSTS that Christ tell's will be made to be a 'devil' and attacked huh? Not any thing to much against the Lord's ETERNAL 7Th Day Sabbath which He Set Aside for Holy Use, and Blessed the DAY, and Sanctified that any sincere Christian can readily see, but Just the same OLD REPEATED stuff. Eccl. 3:15

Just letting you know what to exspect from ALL sides of these SET IN CONCRETE MATURE ones??? Who are they? If your eyes are wide open, you will recognize them! 1 Cor. 12:10 last part of the verse.

--Elijah
 
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--Elijah here:
I ran across an old post from another site that you might find interesting here:?
_________________

No. 1 Reply: Re: Shabbat
By: * -------- http://www.meetchristians.com/php/m...jusqgmfsk8wtva&m_to=MiguelServetoConesa&gto=M Gender: M Age: 52 on Aug 15, 2009 at 1:12 AM
I think that the ten are the least of these, as there are many more explaintory commandments that were added to the ten. So in direct answer I think that Sabbath keeping is in there.

There is a worthly discussion as to keeping the Sabbath for Christians, specially Gentile Christians.

Some Chistians teach that the Lord's Day, or day of the Lord's resurrection is the Christian sabbath, and try to show that the early church kept Sunday or the first day of the week in this way. But in doing a little bit of study in the Greek I found that they kept the last or seventh day sabbath, with some also gathering at day break on the first day for a resurrection celebration, with prayers and hymn singing.

I find that I was holding to seeing Christ as my sabbath rest, and therefor not in need of keeping a day. Following after Paul's words about keeping sabbaths and festivals. Yet, I think now that Paul was addressing not the actual keeping of the weekly Sabbath, but the sabbaths that were part of the festivals given to Israel, that were ways of remembrance of the grace of God to them as a nation.

Through discussion in this forum I am now seeing that the weekly sabbath is older than the Mosaic law, which gives it a deeper foundation and greater authority. And that the Mosaic law just incorporated it into its structure, confirming the basis of it in God's ways.

So if one teaches others to not keep the Sabbath, are they in danger of having lead another astray? I would have to say yes to that now.

(Elijah will be beside himself reading this from me, as we had a long debate on this matter last fall when I came back online.)

I find the ten commandments are the heart and soul of what is pleasing to God. It is the way of righteousness that God delivered to man, that if we walk by them we shall live the kind of life he created us to live. I also see that by the indwelling Holy Spirit we can live according to them, we can walk in righteousness.

from: ----------
 
Yes. You are correct on both counts of observation. I decided that being a moderator was not my 'calling'. And I was overwhelmed with the evidence that proves the Sabbath day is Holy and Blessed by Almighty God. It is the Sabbath, therefore it is the 7th day of creation. And I do not see how it can be 'observed' in its context on any other day.

I do respect your postings. I believe that there is great wisdom that has come with your time as a follower of Christ. I believe that most of us have fallen along the side of the way thinking "we know better, than those who have gone before us". I think it is because of the point you make about how we are completely opposite as I see it when it comes to personality. Most of the time I have always found that I get along a whole lot better with those who are "like" me. But I have found a friend in you.

I also do not say these things without prior consideration. I have looked and watched you for a while now. And I will continue to do so. I have found nothing that throws up those "red" flags for me along the way except for the one that threw me at first which was my concern for your seemingly "legalistic approach" as some view it. I have come to know that it is only your passionate love for God and Christ. I think that what you openly profess, rather exhibit, is actually quoted in the Bible.

Jhn 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Also;

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;

Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

Psa 19:9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.

Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.

Psa 19:11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.


I say these things not as a 'fluff' to boost your ego, or to make anything "seem" right. I simply am stating that which is in my heart toward you.

Yes, the Sabbath is the point to all of this. It has only come, through your obedience to Christ, the understanding that I have now. It is not because of your words, but rather your desire for the truth to be made known. I have always wondered about it, but have never found anyone to sit down and talk with me like you have. You have been a great participator in these discussions and have brought much needed stances on the subject.

Indeed we should keep away from 'arguments' as such. But my desire for this thread was to learn. Not only for myself, but for others that may be in the same place as me spiritually.

In the question you pose, I assume you might be under the impression that there are secrete talks going on? There are indeed some personal messages being sent to people, but are by no means underhanded or double-talk. Thank you very much for your concern, it will be taken to heart. I by no means pretend that I am not able to be led astray in one way or another. Which is precisely why I try not to arrive at any conclusions without much study.

Indeed, you probably have been in fellowship as long as I have been alive. I am now approaching 32, and realize that with age comes wisdom. I say I agree with "some" of your postings only so as to not say I completely understand all of them. I would be lying if I were to say I completely understand every expression and thought you portray. So to agree completely would be a lie.

I understand your concern and warning. It is appreciated once again. Indeed it goes along well with;

2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Which all boils down to the definition of "godly life". And which you bring up the topic of hand that has been made openly clear for me. That the Sabbath is indeed a Holy day and blessed by none other than God Himself. This hollowing and blessing clearly transcends any Law and precept. It is eternal in its own right. If one were to try and explain this away, then they would have to explain away all of creation, Adam and Eve, and original sin.

I will always be open to expressing my 'new found' understanding with anyone. And I will be openly honest, no offense intended, that it did not come directly from you but from the Spirit of God. I can see no other way around this issue. It would destroy my very foundation of faith to try and prove this other wise. And it is not that I am open for direct attack purposefully, but I will always be open to give a defense for the hope that lies in me. And there is no doubt that the hope has a firm association with the Blessed and Holy Sabbath Day!

But just because my faith is solid now in this subject, does not mean I seem to think that there are not other sincere "personalities" out there that desire the same hope. I believe that in all we do love should be expressed above all things. And just to put this in perspective, I must include the definition of what that love is.

1Cr 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant

1Cr 13:5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

1Cr 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

1Cr 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Cr 13:8 Love never ends...


Elijah, I love you as a brother and a friend. It is hard to describe for we have only known each other for a few short months. But in that time, more often than not, you have exemplified just what love is. You have given of yourself and asked nothing in return except careful consideration for the truth.

I can only hope that others will see you for who you are IN Christ. I am also grateful for the others who have participated in this endeavor. One day I might be able to spot evil for what it is, but until then I know that God's grace is sufficient for me. I also believe that He works ALL things out according to His will. And I believe that nothing is done that He is not in control of. I have to know that He has a watchful hand over me, just as He does with others, and only He can discern the true intentions of ones heart.

I fully believe and have peace that He understands my heart on this topic now.
 
Ok, so its not like there are not enough other topics going that could be discussed, but this one is on my mind so I wanted to talk about it.

I do not want this to turn into a 'bashing' of any group of people. That is why I want to put it in here. I want to study the Sabbath from a purely Biblical perspective. The best way to start is from the beginning, working our way through the OT references to it. Anything that has to do with the "Sabbath" or "Seventh Day" is what I want to focus on. Then after it has been discussed thoroughly, I would like to move into the NT view of it. Make sense?

There are a few on this board who I genuinely respect who hold very strong opinions on this topic. I do not wish to offend anyone. I would like to keep it civil, and in a respectful manner. I know its a lot to ask for, but I am asking. I want it to be a study where questions can be raised, and answered, and then talked about. It should not be taken as an attempt to persuade anyone in one direction or another.

So, with that in mind, lets start diving in shall we? These may seem like very basic questions, but I would like to lay groundwork before we get too deep.

Question: What is the first reference to the 'Sabbath' we see in the OT?


Dear friend, The OT with Moses and the Law of God and the animal sacrifices in the Jewish Temple, had one purpose: to prepare the earth for the Coming of the Messiah in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, the LORD GOD of Israel, the Only-begotten Son of God. Now that Christ has come, and is ascended to the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven, the Church is the Body of Christ to preach the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ our LORD. And Jesus is, in His shed blood on the Cross and His third-day resurrection from the dead, the only way back to fellowship with God the Father, in the Power of His Holy Spirit, Who proceedeth from the Father (JOHN 15:26). May the Holy Spirit lead us into all the truth (JOHN16:13). AMEN. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:):pray:waving
 
Dear friend, The OT with Moses and the Law of God and the animal sacrifices in the Jewish Temple, had one purpose: to prepare the earth for the Coming of the Messiah in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, the LORD GOD of Israel, the Only-begotten Son of God. Now that Christ has come, and is ascended to the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven, the Church is the Body of Christ to preach the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ our LORD. And Jesus is, in His shed blood on the Cross and His third-day resurrection from the dead, the only way back to fellowship with God the Father, in the Power of His Holy Spirit, Who proceedeth from the Father (JOHN 15:26). May the Holy Spirit lead us into all the truth (JOHN16:13). AMEN. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:):pray:waving

True. The only way to have fellowship with God is through His Son. And that ONLY comes through His shed blood for us, the forgiveness of our sins. That is the foundation upon which all else is built. Any other foundation is false. However, it does not mean that the foundation is bare. There is a temple being built on that foundation, His Church. And there is an order to the building of that Church. We are not just stones that are stacked at will by our own good pleasure. Only as He see's fit are we built up into a holy temple.
 
Hello again everyone. I just wanted to let everyone know that this topic has sufficiently stirred me to want to conduct some serious study on the subject. In keeping with how seriously I am treating this topic I have just purchased four books on Amazon which I plan on reading each one of and comparing, never however forgetting the absolute source called Scripture, to get to the bottom of the issue. These books deal extensively with the Scriptural evidence as well as consider how the Sabbath was regarded in the Early Church and throughout Church history, and a few also touch on the early traditions of the Lord's Day.

The books that I purchased were as follows (see the links):

- "From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity" by Samuele Bacchiocchi (link)- [Apparently Bacchiocchi is an eminent and accomplished scholar and is a champion of the cause in the eyes of Christians who observe the Sabbath. He defends Sabbath observance.]

- "From Sabbath to Lord's Day: A Biblical, Historical and Theological Investigation" Edited by D. A. Carson (link)- [This book has several contributors arguing that observation of the Sabbath is not required and is regarded as an answer to Bacchiocchi's book. Most Christians who have studied any theology have heard of D. A. Carson, who also is an eminent scholar.]

- "The Sabbath - Scriptural Truth Concerning the Sabbath and Christian Sunday Observance" by Todd D. Bennett (link) - [I've never heard of him but the book had such good reviews I thought I'd give it a try. Sounds like he argues for the observing the Sabbath but not law keeping. I hope this is as balanced as it sounds.]

- "The Sabbath" by Abraham Joshua Heschel (link) - [This one should be quite interesting because it is written by an (apparently) well-known Jewish scholar. No doubt Sabbath observance will be promoted in this book but I bought this book more to gain more insights into how he views the value of the Sabbath as it stands in-and-of-itself.]

So as you can see I have my work cut out for me and I will attack it with hopefully unwearying diligence. Also one can easily see that I purchased three books arguing for Sabbath observance and only one taking the position that the Sabbath is not necessary to observe, so I cannot easily be accused of biasing my reading resources toward works that sympathize with my current conviction that it is not necessary to observe the Sabbath according to the law of Moses. I suspect that many of my views will be seriously challenged, and in general I expect that my understanding of the Sabbath will increase astronomically. Above all I will bring this matter before the Lord in prayer and also strive to emulate the Bereans in my Scripture-searching, for the issue ultimately must not be man-centered but rather God-centered.

I will try to keep you all posted as I read the books.

-------------------------------------------

Now, while I am here, I wanted to also present (what I thought were) an excellent series of articles that I found on the Sabbath which dives into what the Scriptures and the Church Fathers said about the Sabbath. I encourage and challenge you to read these articles and give your thoughts on the conclusions. They are of manageable length so it's not too much to ask that you read them from top to bottom if you choose to read them in the first place.

- Understanding the Sabbath
- More thoughts on the Sabbath (in response to comments on the first article)
- The Law of Moses (Abolished?) - More generally discusses the issue of the relationship of the Law and Christians

Feel free to let me know your thoughts on the books I bought and/or those articles above.

May God Bless You,

~Josh
 
Josh,

You must have quite a library. Lol. I hope you enjoy reading them. They do sound interesting. I will take some time to read those articles sometime. They may be a source of some more discussion in relation to this discussion.

It is good to see your desire to learn more. I look forward to hearing your thoughts after reading those books. As long as you keep God centered you won't go wrong.
 
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