Abortion Biblical?

[Quath]

Quath why do people live at different ages? Just say there are two people who both have the same build and are good in health, but one of them dies a natural death.

I don't follow. Does the other one die an unnatural death? What kind of natural death are you talking about? A bear attack? A disease? A heart attack? Cancer?

Because you choose it to be so, Quath.

Heh. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about how meaningless my life is.

 

[Free]

There may actually be good biblical support that abortion is wrong, apart from the obvious argument from the sanctity of human life. Really, it should just end there but people always want more proof, and usually for such people there can never be enough proof.

Anyway, according to Alvin J. Schmidt in Under the Influence: How Christianity Transformed Civilization, the Greek word pharmakeia is used in Galatians 5:20 and Revelation 21:8, two lists of sins. The word means "the making and administering of potions" and is usually translated as "sorcery" and "witchcraft", for obvious reasons. However, Greco-Romans commonly used potions to induce abortions, as mentioned by Plutarch, Clement of Alexandria, Minucius Felix, Bishop Ambrose, and several others throughout the centuries (they all used pharmakeia as a method of abortion).

Schmidt points out that Revelation 21:8 is particularly interesting because pharmakeia is condemned immediately after "sexual immorality" - commiting abortion to conceal sin and/or to do away with an unwanted child is probably 99% of the reasons why people continue to have abortions, IMO. It is also worth mentioning that the Didache, an early Christian text, possibly for catechism, dating from the mid first to mid second centuries, condemns abortion - "you shall not kill a child by abortion".

So there you have it. Both pagan and Christian writers showing that pharmakeia, a word used by Paul and John in lists of sins, is used in direct reference to abortions.

BTW, I strongly recommend this book for Christian and non-Christian alike.

 

[Quath]

That is very interesting, Free. It is kind of the stuff I was wondering about.

However, it seems to me that potions seem to be used more generically than just for abortion. For example, love/lust potions also fits this just as easily.

 

[Free]

While that is a possibility, I have shown through extra-biblical pagan and Christian sources that pharmakeia is used directly in reference to abortion. While pharmakeia would most certainly also be used in the context of sorcery and various other potions, it does provide a plausible biblical argument against abortion.

 

[Quath]

I would probably say "possible" instead of "plausible" since it is a stretch to assume that it could only man abortion drugs when most people thought it was just straight out magic.

However, even it it did only apply to abortion magic potions, does that mean it has to apply to other medical procedures that are nonmagical?

 

[Steve]

Personally speaking, I am sick of the topic of abortion. I have always voted for pro-choice candidates, because I am not a single-issue voter. I myself have always been somewhat pro-choice; but it must be in the first trimester. I read the article, and basically have no prob with it.

 

[Guest]

Personally speaking, I am sick of the topic of abortion. I have always voted for pro-choice candidates, because I am not a single-issue voter. I myself have always been somewhat pro-choice; but it must be in the first trimester. I read the article, and basically have no prob with it.

Doesn't your position fly smack into the position of Rome? Bishops have threatened to withhold the Eucharist to those who support abortion!

Interesting how on one thread you seem to say it is okay to murder the defenseless, but on another say any church ordaining women is going to hell in a hand-basket!

:o :roll: :o

 

[christian_soldier]

Personally speaking, I am sick of the topic of abortion. I have always voted for pro-choice candidates, because I am not a single-issue voter. I myself have always been somewhat pro-choice; but it must be in the first trimester. I read the article, and basically have no prob with it.

Congrats. Your complacency helped kill 4,000 babies today.

:roll:

 

[Quath]

Congrats. Your complacency helped kill 4,000 babies today.

Are you saying that if Steve had changed his single vote that 4000 less abortions would have occured? Which vote was that close that he would have caused a change?

 

[christian_soldier]

Are you saying that if Steve had changed his single vote that 4000 less abortions would have occured? Which vote was that close that he would have caused a change?

Killing babies is nothing to make light of.

 

[Guest]

Killing babies is nothing to make light of.

I would agree - but who is making light of whom?

I do not believe Quath was attempting to make light of anything - rather, you cannot say that Steve contributed to the death of babies - no more so than our President has contributed to the death of babies. Where has Bush championed a law to completeling outlaw abortion?

Your snide remark to Steve was ... well... just snide.

 

[christian_soldier]

I would agree - but who is making light of whom?

I do not believe Quath was attempting to make light of anything - rather, you cannot say that Steve contributed to the death of babies - no more so than our President has contributed to the death of babies. Where has Bush championed a law to completeling outlaw abortion?

Your snide remark to Steve was ... well... just snide.

Bush isn't on the board professing Christ and pro-death.

 

[Guest]

Bush isn't on the board professing Christ and pro-death.

True - but isn't Bush in more of a position to do something about it more than Steve is?

 

[Quath]

Killing babies is nothing to make light of.

As aLoneVoice is point out, accusations of murder is nothing to make light of either.

 

[Solo]

Personally speaking, I am sick of the topic of abortion. I have always voted for pro-choice candidates, because I am not a single-issue voter. I myself have always been somewhat pro-choice; but it must be in the first trimester. I read the article, and basically have no prob with it.

I am more sick of abortion and the spineless cowards who will not stand up for the defenseless unborn of this country, than I am of being sick of the topic of abortion.

May all of those who do not stand for the innocent unborn be accursed.

 

[christian_soldier]

As aLoneVoice is point out, accusations of murder is nothing to make light of either.

Anyone who stands by and condones the violent destruction of unborn babies is complicit in the act.

Even if its just the first trimester.

7 WEEKS

http://abortionno.org/Resources/Abortio ... eks-03.jpg

 

[Quath]

Here is a picture from the 7th week of pregnancy:

But pictures are not the best way to debate abortion. After all, I could launch a good campaign against knee surgery by showing the graphic details of the operation. It would cause people to feel queasy and feel uncertain about it. However, that is an argument by grossness, not by logic.

 

[Vic C.]

A knee is part of the life form, not THE life form. :-? We're not debating knee-killing. :o

 

[christian_soldier]

Here is a picture from the 7th week of pregnancy:



But pictures are not the best way to debate abortion. After all, I could launch a good campaign against knee surgery by showing the graphic details of the operation. It would cause people to feel queasy and feel uncertain about it. However, that is an argument by grossness, not by logic.

Human Embryo (7th week of pregnancy, 5th weeks p.o.)

This photo of an opened oviduct with an ectopic pregnancy features a spectacularly well preserved 10-millimeter embryo. It is uncommon to see any embryo at all in an ectopic, and for one to be this well preserved (and undisturbed by the prosector's knife) is quite unusual.

Even an embryo this tiny shows very distinct anatomic features, including tail, limb buds, heart (which actually protrudes from the chest), eye cups, cornea/lens, brain, and prominent segmentation into somites. The gestational sac is surrounded by a myriad of chorionic villi resembling elongate party balloons. This embryo is about five weeks old (or seven weeks in the biologically misleading but eminently practical dating system used in obstetrics).

The photo was taken on Kodak Elite 200 slide film, with a Minolta X-370 camera and 100mm f/4 Rokkor bellows lens at near-full extension. The formalin-fixed specimen was immersed in tap-water and pinned to a tray lined with black velvet. The exposure was 1/4 second at f/8.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... embryo.jpg

No matter how you slice it, abortion is murder, knee surgery isn't.

 

[Vic C.]

The photo was taken on Kodak Elite 200 slide film, with a Minolta X-370 camera and 100mm f/4 Rokkor bellows lens at near-full extension. The formalin-fixed specimen was immersed in tap-water and pinned to a tray lined with black velvet. The exposure was 1/4 second at f/8.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... embryo.jpg

No matter how you slice it, abortion is murder, knee surgery isn't.

Wait... isn't this and Quath's photos the same? 8-)