About how many here hold some preterism views? - Part 2

[JLB]

God doesn't need to whisk someone away to protect them. See Daniel 3 and Daniel 6.

Brother I am not Pre trib, and I use those scriptures to prove the very point you are making.

The church can't be gone when the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man because they see Him before the elect are gathered, as the very scripture you've provided proves.

It is simultaneous, in a twinkling of an eye.

The Church will not mourn, the world will. That is the point.

Every eye will see Him.

That event will happen at the end of the age.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

Look at the same event from Paul's perspective - 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 Paul defines those who will be alive and experience the reurn of Jesus Christ. Them and you. Your either a "them" or a "you" [ewe] Sudden destruction comes upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. Labor pains come unexpectedly. They cause the woman to double over with pain and mourn. The reason there is such a violent reaction is that there is no time for the woman to "brace" or prepare for this unexpected shock wave of pain. Not so with the children of light that know the signs that Jesus left for us in the scriptures. They are expecting this event with joy and great expectation. No reason to mourn.

So, in Revelation 3:3 (My Namesake Scripture BTW), Jesus promises that His thief's coming would befall the 1st century Church at Sardis.
Jesus promised actual air breathing, blood pumping human beings alive in the 1st century that He would come as a thief to those in Sardis who did not watch, while those actual living breathing human beings that DID watch, would not be thusly overcome.

This is congruent teaching about the thief's coming, as you correctly cite above. Those who do not watch would be overtaken violently while those who did watch would not.

And in Rev 3:3, Jesus CEMENTS that one and only Thief's coming TO THE FIRST CENTURY.

Rev 3:3 is the death Knell of Futurism, if we are to believe the words of Jesus that is.....

 

[JLB]

Look at the same event from Paul's perspective - 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 Paul defines those who will be alive and experience the reurn of Jesus Christ. Them and you. Your either a "them" or a "you" [ewe] Sudden destruction comes upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. Labor pains come unexpectedly. They cause the woman to double over with pain and mourn. The reason there is such a violent reaction is that there is no time for the woman to "brace" or prepare for this unexpected shock wave of pain. Not so with the children of light that know the signs that Jesus left for us in the scriptures. They are expecting this event with joy and great expectation. No reason to mourn.

So, in Revelation 3:3 (My Namesake Scripture BTW), Jesus promises that His thief's coming would befall the 1st century Church at Sardis.
Jesus promised actual air breathing, blood pumping human beings alive in the 1st century that He would come as a thief to those in Sardis who did not watch, while those actual living breathing human beings that DID watch, would not be thusly overcome.

This is congruent teaching about the thief's coming, as you correctly cite above. Those who do not watch would be overtaken violently while those who did watch would not.

And in Rev 3:3, Jesus CEMENTS that one and only Thief's coming TO THE FIRST CENTURY.

Rev 3:3 is the death Knell of Futurism, if we are to believe the words of Jesus that is.....

Thats funny!

Look at what Jesus said in Revelation 1:20 -

20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: Revelation 2:1


Jesus would come to them and walk among the seven churches listed in Revelation, as they were represented by the seven golden lampstands.

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus in fact came, as stated in the outset of Revelation -

It says He will come - FUTURE.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


No one will have to tell you Jesus has returned for Every eye will see Him, for He will come and remove all the wicked from the earth and cast then into hell.

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun.

Do you yourself posses a body that shines like the sun, and will never die?

If you don't, Jesus hasn't returned.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus in fact came, as stated in the outset of Revelation - It says He will come - FUTURE. .... Jesus hasn't returned.

You have two choices then:

1) Jesus' Thief's coming came upon those actual air breathing, blood pumping 1st century human beings as He promised them it would, and your understanding of the nature of those events is incorrect.

2) Jesus LIED to those actual air breathing, blood pumping Human beings in Sardis and did NOT come as a thief upon those there that did not watch.

 

[JLB]

3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus in fact came, as stated in the outset of Revelation - It says He will come - FUTURE. .... Jesus hasn't returned.

You have two choices then:

1) Jesus' Thief's coming came upon those actual air breathing, blood pumping 1st century human beings as He promised them it would, and your understanding of the nature of those events is incorrect.

2) Jesus LIED to those actual air breathing, blood pumping Human beings in Sardis and did NOT come as a thief upon those there that did not watch.

I choose option 3 -

Jesus stated that He would come as a thief in the night for those who do not watch, as He did in the Olivet Discourse.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

I choose option 3 - Jesus stated that He would come as a thief in the night for those who do not watch, as He did in the Olivet Discourse.

Which circles us back to Options 1 or 2.

In the Olivet, He also promised REAL PEOPLE who were there with Him, that if THEY did not watch, He would come upon THEM.

Rev 3:3 is simply a reiteration with even more time and location specific details.

Your position mandates Jesus Lied to those real people if He did NOT come upon THEM as He said he WOULD.

Maybe you are comfortable with that?

 

[JLB]

I choose option 3 - Jesus stated that He would come as a thief in the night for those who do not watch, as He did in the Olivet Discourse.

Which circles us back to Options 1 or 2.

In the Olivet, He also promised REAL PEOPLE who were there with Him, that if THEY did not watch, He would come upon THEM.

Rev 3:3 is simply a reiteration with even more time and location specific details.

Your position mandates Jesus Lied to those real people if He did NOT come upon THEM as He said he WOULD.

Maybe you are comfortable with that?

No Brother, it circles you back to your very narrow view of scripture.

Jesus said in AD 33, that He would come as a thief in the night for those who don't watch.

Do you even know what this Hebrew idiom refers to?

In 90 AD, He said the same thing?

He also said is the same chapter -

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.


The simple fact is, Jesus hasn't returned, nor has the resurrection of the dead taken place.

When it does, everyone on earth will know.

Again, is case you get confused again, go to the nearest mirror at look.

If you are not shining like the sun and don't have a body that will never die, then Jesus has not returned.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

I choose option 3 - Jesus stated that He would come as a thief in the night for those who do not watch, as He did in the Olivet Discourse.

Which circles us back to Options 1 or 2.

In the Olivet, He also promised REAL PEOPLE who were there with Him, that if THEY did not watch, He would come upon THEM.

Rev 3:3 is simply a reiteration with even more time and location specific details.

Your position mandates Jesus Lied to those real people if He did NOT come upon THEM as He said he WOULD.

Maybe you are comfortable with that?

No Brother, it circles you back to your very narrow view of scripture.

Jesus said in AD 33, that He would come as a thief in the night for those who don't watch.

Do you even know what this Hebrew idiom refers to?

In 90 AD, He said the same thing?

He also said is the same chapter -

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.


The simple fact is, Jesus hasn't returned, nor has the resurrection of the dead taken place.

When it does, everyone on earth will know.

Again, is case you get confused again, go to the nearest mirror at look.

If you are not shining like the sun and don't have a body that will never die, then Jesus has not returned.


JLB

Just so I and our readers are clear on your position, is your contention that Jesus warning to Watch or Be overtaken by the one and only "Thief's Coming" was NOT applicable in any way to the very people who FIRST received His Direct Admonition?

If I'm wrong about that, Please explain HOW His admonition to WATCH or be Overtaken by the Thief's Coming applied to them directly.

 

[JLB]

I choose option 3 - Jesus stated that He would come as a thief in the night for those who do not watch, as He did in the Olivet Discourse.

Which circles us back to Options 1 or 2.

In the Olivet, He also promised REAL PEOPLE who were there with Him, that if THEY did not watch, He would come upon THEM.

Rev 3:3 is simply a reiteration with even more time and location specific details.

Your position mandates Jesus Lied to those real people if He did NOT come upon THEM as He said he WOULD.

Maybe you are comfortable with that?

No Brother, it circles you back to your very narrow view of scripture.

Jesus said in AD 33, that He would come as a thief in the night for those who don't watch.

Do you even know what this Hebrew idiom refers to?

In 90 AD, He said the same thing?

He also said is the same chapter -

11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.


The simple fact is, Jesus hasn't returned, nor has the resurrection of the dead taken place.

When it does, everyone on earth will know.

Again, is case you get confused again, go to the nearest mirror at look.

If you are not shining like the sun and don't have a body that will never die, then Jesus has not returned.


JLB

Just so I and our readers are clear on your position, is your contention that Jesus warning to Watch or Be overtaken by the one and only "Thief's Coming" was NOT applicable in any way to the very people who FIRST received His Direct Admonition?

If I'm wrong about that, Please explain HOW His admonition to WATCH or be Overtaken by the Thief's Coming applied to them directly.

Jesus' admonition was for His disciples when He was with them, His admonition was to the church of Sardis in Revelation 3, and His admonition to watch is for us today, as it is written -

37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!"

JLB

 

[Rev33]

Jesus' admonition was for His disciples when He was with them, His admonition was to the church of Sardis in Revelation 3

HOW?
HOW did it apply to THEM?

Jesus said if they did NOT watch, His coming would overtake them "As a thief"

You are saying that those in Sardis who did NOT watch were in fact NOT EVER overtaken by the Thiefs coming, even though Jesus said they would be.

 

[JLB]

Jesus' admonition was for His disciples when He was with them, His admonition was to the church of Sardis in Revelation 3

HOW?
HOW did it apply to THEM?

Jesus said if they did NOT watch, His coming would overtake them "As a thief"

You are saying that those in Sardis who did NOT watch were in fact NOT EVER overtaken by the Thiefs coming, even though Jesus said they would be.

Jesus said the same thing to His disciples on the Mount of Olives in 33 AD, as He said to the Church in Sardis in 90 AD.

This is a Hebrew Idiom.

It refers to the High Priest coming to check on the watchman who were on duty during the night.

Those who fell asleep, were punished by the High Priest coming upon them in the night and setting their clothes on fire.

The only recourse was to tear off the burning clothes so that they were found "naked".

Everyone knew of this custom, and a person who was found naked in this manner, it was known that they fell asleep on watch, and they felt ashamed.

Sadly enough, you don't understand this, so you have built a "doctrine" on a Hebrew idiom that you nothing about.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

Jesus' admonition was for His disciples when He was with them, His admonition was to the church of Sardis in Revelation 3

HOW?
HOW did it apply to THEM?

Jesus said if they did NOT watch, His coming would overtake them "As a thief"

You are saying that those in Sardis who did NOT watch were in fact NOT EVER overtaken by the Thiefs coming, even though Jesus said they would be.

Jesus said the same thing to His disciples on the Mount of Olives in 33 AD, as He said to the Church in Sardis in 90 AD.

This is a Hebrew Idiom.

It refers to the High Priest coming to check on the watchman who were on duty during the night.

Those who fell asleep, were punished by the High Priest coming upon them in the night and setting their clothes on fire.

The only recourse was to tear off the burning clothes so that they were found "naked".

Everyone knew of this custom, and a person who was found naked in this manner, it was known that they fell asleep on watch, and they felt ashamed.

What Scripture or scriptures supports this theory of yours? I'm Not particularly interested in your extra Biblical Eisegesis. Show me the scriptural teaching that this is the Idiom you claim it is.

Truth is, The "Thief in the Night" event IS the Day of the Lord event, scripturally speaking and it only happens ONCE.

COMPARE THIS-

• 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
• 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which theheavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

TO THIS-


1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


Matthew 24:43




43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.


TO THIS-

• Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
• Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

JLB, these ALL speak of the Same, ONE TIME ONLY Event.

Sadly enough, you don't understand this, so you have built a "doctrine" on a Hebrew idiom that you nothing about.


JLB

Rather, I have accepted what scripture teaches on the topic at face value, Sadly it appears you have built a doctrine on Extra Biblical stories and rumors....

But lest suppose you have something here.... IF the idiom is about the High Priest coming and burning the asleep "watchmen", and "everyone knew" this is what He meant... Then they would have clearly understood Jesus, being their High Priest, would be the one who would "Come" and burn them if they weren't watching yes?

 

[JLB]

What Scripture or scriptures supports this theory of yours? I'm Not particularly interested in your extra Biblical Eisegesis. Show me the scriptural teaching that this is the Idiom you claim it is. Truth is, The "Thief in the Night" event IS the Day of the Lord event, scripturally speaking and it only happens ONCE.

Scripturally it happens at the end of the age.

Rather, I have accepted what scripture teaches on the topic at face value, Sadly it appears you have built a doctrine on Extra Biblical stories and rumors....

If you have accepted what the scriptures teach, then you would not keep avoiding the question I have asked you about your resurrected body.


Do you yourself have a resurrected body that will never die?

How about this question.

Have you a blood pumping, heart beating human being ever literally died and been buried in the earth?

Not a symbolic burial in water, as in Baptism, but a literal death whereby your body ceases to function and your heart stops beating and you are literally buried in the literal ground?

If the answer is no, then you yourself have not been resurrected from the dead, and therefore Jesus has not returned.


When Jesus comes with all His holy angels every person whether they are a sheep destined for God's Kingdom or a goat destined for hell, will stand before a literal Lord Jesus Christ and receive a sentence of Judgement.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41

and again -


34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." Luke 20:34-37

Jesus literally died and was buried, and was the firstfruits of those who will attain the resurrection of the dead.

18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:18-23

Those who are His at His Coming.

When He comes once, then all who are His will be resurrected from the dead.

To qualify for this, you yourself have to have died, literally.


JLB

 

[Rev33]

What Scripture or scriptures supports this theory of yours? I'm Not particularly interested in your extra Biblical Eisegesis. Show me the scriptural teaching that this is the Idiom you claim it is. Truth is, The "Thief in the Night" event IS the Day of the Lord event, scripturally speaking and it only happens ONCE.

Scripturally it happens at the end of the age.

YES!!
And Jesus Himself Scripturally CEMENTS the event to the FIRST CENTURY!

Rather, I have accepted what scripture teaches on the topic at face value, Sadly it appears you have built a doctrine on Extra Biblical stories and rumors....

If you have accepted what the scriptures teach, then you would not keep avoiding the question I have asked you about your resurrected body.


Do you yourself have a resurrected body that will never die?

Resurrection is for THE DEAD, Scripturally speaking.

How about this question.

Have you a blood pumping, heart beating human being ever literally died and been buried in the earth?

Not yet, But I will be. EVERYONE has an appointment with death. None escape.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

After I die Physically, I will be Judged.
Prior to AD70, those who Died went to Hades to Await Judgement, for the way to the Holiest of all had not yet been made manifest while the temple still stood. (Hebrews 9:8)

Now it happens instantly. When I shed this earthly tent I will be clothed with the Spiritual Body God made for me. (1 Corinthians 15:38-44)

Now... lets get back to Hebrew Idiom...

I'm glad you understand the concept, but it seems you are challenged to apply it correctly.

I have spent my meager 100+ posts here providing scriptural support that the terms "Every Eye shall see, Coming with the clouds, and Ever was nor ever shall be, stars falling, mountains melting, etc, etc.." are ALL well established Hebrew Idiom...Every scripture I have posted in length shows without question that these terms are used consistently in scripture in Hyperbolic and idiomatic fashion. I have posted Myriad of scriptures showing this, yet you refuse to take the blinders off because you are so attached to your presuppositions... then you throw out "Thief in the night" Claim it is Hebrew Idiom , yet can't show one single scripture supporting your claim... Where's the Proof?

Our disagreement isn't new.
You say my understanding of the timing is wrong because of your belief about the nature of the event, and I say the 1st century timing must be right, and your view of the nature must be incorrect.

Our readers can decide for themselves, and I am confident of the conclusions they will draw from our debate.
Thank you for this opportunity!

 

[JLB]

YES!!
And Jesus Himself Scripturally CEMENTS the event to the FIRST CENTURY!

Rather, I have accepted what scripture teaches on the topic at face value, Sadly it appears you have built a doctrine on Extra Biblical stories and rumors....

If you have accepted what the scriptures teach, then you would not keep avoiding the question I have asked you about your resurrected body.


Do you yourself have a resurrected body that will never die?

Resurrection is for THE DEAD, Scripturally speaking.

How about this question.

Have you a blood pumping, heart beating human being ever literally died and been buried in the earth?

Not yet, But I will be. EVERYONE has an appointment with death. None escape.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

After I die Physically, I will be Judged.
Prior to AD70, those who Died went to Hades to Await Judgement, for the way to the Holiest of all had not yet been made manifest while the temple still stood. (Hebrews 9:8)

Now it happens instantly. When I shed this earthly tent I will be clothed with the Body God made for me.

Now... lets get back to Hebrew Idiom...

I'm glad you understand the concept, but it seems you are challenged to apply it correctly.

I have spent my meager 100+ posts here providing scriptural support that the terms "Every Eye shall see, Coming with the clouds, and Ever was nor ever shall be, stars falling, mountains melting, etc, etc.." are ALL well established Hebrew Idiom...Every scripture I have posted in length shows without question that these terms are used consistently in scripture in Hyperbolic and idiomatic fashion. I have posted Myriad of scriptures showing this, yet you refuse to take the blinders off because you are so attached to your presuppositions... then you throw out "Thief in the night" Claim it is Hebrew Idiom , yet can't show one single scripture supporting your claim... Where's the Proof?

Our disagreement isn't new.
You say my understanding of the timing is wrong because of your belief about the nature of the event, and I say the timing must be right, and your view of the nature must be incorrect.

Our readers can decide for themselves, and I am confident of the conclusions they will draw from our debate.
Thank you for this opportunity!

The Resurrection of the dead happens at the Coming of The Lord for all of those who are Christ's, as there is only One Coming at the end of the age.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.



Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

At the resurrection we shall all be resurrected and will never die anymore.

This occurs at His Coming, once and for all.

This event is something to look forward to.

JLB

 

[ezrider]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION], I've read through many of your posts in this thread and others, and you are certainly steadfast in your position and have not wavered. With that though in mind, I have a simple question for you: Do you consider yourself to be "Born Again"?

 

[JLB]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION], I've read through many of your posts in this thread and others, and you are certainly steadfast in your position and have not wavered. With that though in mind, I have a simple question for you: Do you consider yourself to be "Born Again"?

Yes

 

[JLB]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION], I've read through many of your posts in this thread and others, and you are certainly steadfast in your position and have not wavered. With that though in mind, I have a simple question for you: Do you consider yourself to be "Born Again"?

How about you Brother, what are your views of the resurrection of the dead.

Do you think that Jesus returned in 70AD, and the resurrection occurred then?


JLB

 

[ezrider]

How about you Brother, what are your views of the resurrection of the dead.

Do you think that Jesus returned in 70AD, and the resurrection occurred then?

JLB

Let me first say that I really don’t think you are at all truly interested in my opinion. You are fully convinced of your own opinions, and appear to be closed off to considering anything that does not square with your own dogma, I believe you are only looking for someone else to debate, so let me be clear, I will not engage in a debate with you, because there is absolutely nothing edifying in it.

So let me begin with this: I had never heard of preterism until I came on this forum, nor do I know, or even care to know, what the tenants of preterism are, but reading through this forum has given me a general idea. So before I answer your question, I must first state what I believe to be the faulty premise of this thread and debate in general, and that is when anyone is steadfast that it must be one way or the other, they fail to recognize the difference between the spirit and the flesh. Those that live after the spirit tend to see the fulfillment of prophecy as past, and walk with the newness of spirit according to the promise in his kingdom. Those that live after the flesh tend to see the prophecy as yet future, and walk with the expectation of a kingdom to come. I would tell you that both in a way are correct: for Christ came that he might be Lord of both the living and the dead (Rom 14:9).

Now you asked me if I thought the resurrection occurred in 70 AD? First off, I have no idea what connection there may be between 70 AD and the resurrection, I was simply under the impression that is when many believe the temple was destroyed. But my faith is not bound to that, and I really could care less one way or the other. If you want to know my belief, then I would tell you the resurrection began at Pentecost, or maybe even earlier, such as the time of the resurrection of Christ (Matt 27:52). Now you might be curious as to why I would ask you if you considered yourself to be “Born Again,” and that is because being “Born Again” is of the spirit and of the kingdom now present, yet you seem awfully wrapped up in the flesh and a kingdom to come. To me, being “Born Again” is a spiritual resurrection, and with it comes a recognition of the fulfillment in Christ. The future fulfillment that you seek is the judgement of the law according to the flesh for those who remain under the law. But that law holds no power over me in Christ, and obsessing over future fulfillment of any prophecy in that respect no longer consumes me. My mind is set on the full realization of the kingdom of God now present with us; As 2 Cor 4:7 tells us that we have this treasure in earthen vessels.

You have concluded that the resurrection has not yet happened, and that the promises of God were for a singular future generation that you believe yourself to be a part of, as have most generations for the past two thousand years. But I would tell you that those promises were made for all generations, and that since the resurrection of Christ, the resurrection in spirit has continued for each generation and for all individuals in their own time. Now in 2 Tim 3:18, the scripture says that they erred in saying the resurrection is past already, and by that overthrew the faith of some, but it did not say say were completely wrong, only that it could harm the faith of some, and destroy what hope they had until their time should come. But is that any less subversive than your stance that the promises of God were to come only on one unique and final generation. Can you understand how that could also overthrow the faith of some as well. As Jesus said to the Pharisees concerning the kingdom of God: you don’t enter in, and you prevent those who are entering. You look at a scripture that says as the lightening cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be (Matt 24:27) as proof of a singular event where every eye shall behold him to justify your assertions, but I will tell you that the sun continues to rise in the east and set in the west day after day without fail, as it has for generation after generation, to each in his own time. You have continued to reject the premiss of other members on this board who have kindly stated that Jesus was speaking to His generation, yet the scripture plainly tells us during the time of the apostles, that the promise was unto you, and to your children, and to those that are a far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts 2:39): to all generations, not just one.

Like I stated in my opening, I will not debate you on this matter. You have asked my opinion and I have given it. I bid you to consider the following passages very carefully, and ask yourself where you stand, for your conversation remains of the flesh and looks only to the judgement of the children of disobedience according to the law.

Col 1:25-27
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Col 2: 8-12
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Eph 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Let me first say that I really don’t think you are at all truly interested in my opinion. You are fully convinced of your own opinions, and appear to be closed off to considering anything that does not square with your own dogma, I believe you are only looking for someone else to debate, so let me be clear, I will not engage in a debate with you, because there is absolutely nothing edifying in it.

So let me begin with this: I had never heard of preterism until I came on this forum, nor do I know, or even care to know, what the tenants of preterism are, but reading through this forum has given me a general idea. So before I answer your question, I must first state what I believe to be the faulty premise of this thread and debate in general, and that is when anyone is steadfast that it must be one way or the other, they fail to recognize the difference between the spirit and the flesh. Those that live after the spirit tend to see the fulfillment of prophecy as past, and walk with the newness of spirit according to the promise in his kingdom. Those that live after the flesh tend to see the prophecy as yet future, and walk with the expectation of a kingdom to come. I would tell you that both in a way are correct: for Christ came that he might be Lord of both the living and the dead (Rom 14:9).

Now you asked me if I thought the resurrection occurred in 70 AD? First off, I have no idea what connection there may be between 70 AD and the resurrection, I was simply under the impression that is when many believe the temple was destroyed. But my faith is not bound to that, and I really could care less one way or the other. If you want to know my belief, then I would tell you the resurrection began at Pentecost, or maybe even earlier, such as the time of the resurrection of Christ (Matt 27:52). Now you might be curious as to why I would ask you if you considered yourself to be “Born Again,” and that is because being “Born Again” is of the spirit and of the kingdom now present, yet you seem awfully wrapped up in the flesh and a kingdom to come. To me, being “Born Again” is a spiritual resurrection, and with it comes a recognition of the fulfillment in Christ. The future fulfillment that you seek is the judgement of the law according to the flesh for those who remain under the law. But that law holds no power over me in Christ, and obsessing over future fulfillment of any prophecy in that respect no longer consumes me. My mind is set on the full realization of the kingdom of God now present with us; As 2 Cor 4:7 tells us that we have this treasure in earthen vessels.

You have concluded that the resurrection has not yet happened, and that the promises of God were for a singular future generation that you believe yourself to be a part of, as have most generations for the past two thousand years. But I would tell you that those promises were made for all generations, and that since the resurrection of Christ, the resurrection in spirit has continued for each generation and for all individuals in their own time. Now in 2 Tim 3:18, the scripture says that they erred in saying the resurrection is past already, and by that overthrew the faith of some, but it did not say say were completely wrong, only that it could harm the faith of some, and destroy what hope they had until their time should come. But is that any less subversive than your stance that the promises of God were to come only on one unique and final generation. Can you understand how that could also overthrow the faith of some as well. As Jesus said to the Pharisees concerning the kingdom of God: you don’t enter in, and you prevent those who are entering. You look at a scripture that says as the lightening cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be (Matt 24:27) as proof of a singular event where every eye shall behold him to justify your assertions, but I will tell you that the sun continues to rise in the east and set in the west day after day without fail, as it has for generation after generation, to each in his own time. You have continued to reject the premiss of other members on this board who have kindly stated that Jesus was speaking to His generation, yet the scripture plainly tells us during the time of the apostles, that the promise was unto you, and to your children, and to those that are a far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts 2:39): to all generations, not just one.

Like I stated in my opening, I will not debate you on this matter. You have asked my opinion and I have given it. I bid you to consider the following passages very carefully, and ask yourself where you stand, for your conversation remains of the flesh and looks only to the judgement of the children of disobedience according to the law.

Col 1:25-27
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Col 2: 8-12
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Eph 2:1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Full Preterism teaches that Jesus returned in 70 AD, as that was the end of the age.

Also this Forum has its rules and guidelines as well -

Full preterism teaches , all eschatological prophecy has come to pass, the Great White Throne Judgment, including the resurrection, the destruction of satan, and the Second Coming of Christ. This view is not a part of Cfnets Statement of Faith. Cfnet holds the view full preterism is heresy.
Postings will be closely moderated, subject to quick deletions.
Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2012

As far as the Resurrection of the dead, Paul teaches that all who belong to The Lord will be Resurrected at the same time at His Coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1Corinthians 15:20-24

JLB