Growth Abundant life?

[Jethro Bodine]

Kidron...I just do not see how you got "poverty is spirituality", or that "God wills us to be poor" out of the OP. The point was that materiality is not the essence of what Jesus was referring to. If you have it great! Share it. If you don't? By all means strive to gain (for family and others) but material riches and getting our own way are NOT what Jesus taught as any type of goal that has to do with being a Christian.

When I hear of the multibillions of valuables and money that the Vatican possesses and learn that all around them are starving masses they do little or nothing to help, I have to ask "Is this what Jesus would do?" The reverend Richard Blake takes a salary from his megachurch in south central LA of $900,000 dollars a year and lives in a huge mansion with servants and about 5 classy automobiles, a private jet, and so on and his flock is comprised of most who earn less than 30,000 per year and who's children often lack adequate clothing, medical care, and appropriate (of any) food...he guilts them all out of their money with an empty promise of 10 fold blessings financially...is the Spirit of Jesus in this man?

His relationship with God is between them but I think he should learn Matthew 25...

The post started because I met a woman who lives on Daystar, attends church, reads the word and prays...she has a really sharp apartment, nice clothes, a full belly, a good relationship, three wonderful children and a new grandbaby, but she does have a bad back...all she does is continuously wine and complain about "where is this abundant life Jesus promised, I do not see it"....she lives in her abusive past and is convinced by her favorite Pastor-Star Mike Murdoch that she must not have enough faith or else she needs to send him more money....is this man representing Jesus? Really?

Now this may or may not have been your point but do not misconstrue mine...many fine and sincere men and women of God have abundant earthly lives but the point was that attaining such is not the point of the message. If so all the Apostles would have lived in Castles with servants eating the fatted calf every day and none would ever have fallen ill.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It always gets me when people talk about tithing and think it has anything to do with christianity.
It gets me that they think it has to do with giving 10% of your income to the local church.
They think if you don't do it, then you are cheating God, that you will not receive all his blessings, that he will hold things back from you because you don't give the church 10% of your money.
Many will tell you that you are under a curse.
Malachi is used more for Christian giving than any other verse in the Bible.
How many Christians know that today, around the world, that Jews do not tithe?
Why?
Because biblically, they know they can't.
Why should a Jew listen to a Christian when they can't get anything straight?

 

[Jim Parker]

It always gets me when people talk about tithing and think it has anything to do with christianity.
It gets me that they think it has to do with giving 10% of your income to the local church.
They think if you don't do it, then you are cheating God, that you will not receive all his blessings, that he will hold things back from you because you don't give the church 10% of your money.
Many will tell you that you are under a curse.
Malachi is used more for Christian giving than any other verse in the Bible.

Well said.
I have met very few people who have actually read how the scriptures say that the Jews were to tithe. They are surprised to be told that 2 years out of 3 they are supposed to take their tithe to Jerusalem and have a party and that in the third year they are to take their tithes to the storehouses in their towns (we don't have those today) so that there will be provision for the widow, orphan, stranger and Levite. (We don't have Levites in the church either.)
See Deut 14:22-29
There is no New Testament teaching which requires Christians to keep that portion of the Law of Moses.

iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

You are defending prosperity gospel doctrine. I will use this forum as the opportunity to expose it for what it really is.

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Well, first you have to use anything ive said as your proof that i support or preach the prosperity gospel.
You've not done this, because its not possible.
So until you do, then you are being deceitful to accuse me, with no Proof, yet presented.
So Typical of you.
Next, the tithe is 10%, its not "what you can afford" as you just taught it.
Read your bible for an update.
Finally, the abundant life we have in Jesus Christ, is connected to Abraham, and the Abrahamic Covenant.
Once you study this out, once you rightly divide the scriptures, you wont sound as unlearned, and you'll end up here. regarding Abraham and Christians.
HERE : 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; Who is the father of us all..

So, salvation recreates us to be "joint Heirs" with Jesus, as He is RIGHT NOW.
And what he is right now is not a suffering messiah, but rather a RISEN and glorious King of Kings and THE Lord of Lords.
And THAT is our "heir", THAT JESUS..... so, keep that in mind when you would try to falsely teach that prosperity is not connected to Him.
And remember, '"prosperity" is both spiritual and literal within the physical realm.
Its BOTH.

 

[Kidron]

It always gets me when people talk about tithing and think it has anything to do with christianity.

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Whether it has anything to do with NT Christianity, its still a fact the that the tithe means 10%.
Thats what it means.
Should you tithe, does it matter.?..... Well we know that Paul says that a Pastor is to be paid for being a Pastor.
Some "double wages" depending on what they are doing.
So, this comes out of something, and if you have an idea of what that is that is not the tithe,.., im happy to hear it.

I know this...
A Pastor is to be paid for pastoring, as its not a part time call that God gave them.
Its their JOB, its their ministry.
So, the money to pay them has to come from the Flock he is pastoring, and if you dont want to call that a tithe, ...thats fine by me.
And also, the church building that is filled by the sheep, has lights and AC, and so forth, and this has to be paid for by the congregation.
So, if you dont want to see this connected with "tithing" then call giving money to pay the pastor and money given to keep your church's lights on whatever you feel like calling it, Rollo.
The name does not matter, but the giving does.

 

[iLOVE]

I contend that most Christians in this world will have no idea how to explain and understand that statement.
Do they not live properly for God?
Go ahead, prove me wrong.
Go out into the streets and pick 100 Christians at random and see how many can answer your question.
Then you go into a study Bible that mentions the cross of Christ in the study but still shows no verses to back up what is being said.

But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 1 Corinthians 2:14 NLT

Then He added, “Pay close attention to what you hear. The closer you listen, the more understanding you will be given[a]—and you will receive even more. 25 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.” Mark 4:24-25 NLT

 

[for_his_glory]

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Im not a "prosperity gospel" advocate., but not for the same reason that most would hate it.
And, this is not because the "abundant life" that Jesus came to give is only a spiritual situation.
"life" is not just the spirit....It does include our earthly humanity.
ITs both.
So, to be abundantly blessed by Jesus, is not only to be redeemed from sin and given eternal life, but it is to also became directly connected to the Abrahamic covenant..
You should study this...
So, its all of this....."you are Christ's"...."Abrahams seed", "heirs according to the promise". = The Abundant life in Christt.
I'll bet your preacher or any that you know who will tell you that "abundant life" is "spiritual only", has a nice car, house, TV, all the goodies.
So, Study all that.....find out about this, and you'll see that your Salvation offers you more then just Heaven.

The abundant life that God has given us beginning with Adam and Eve is spiritual and not earthly as God has never been about monetary gain, but only Spiritual gain as what He gave in the beginning with every green herb, animals, water and shelter is Gods provision while we are here on this earth. We are to help others out of the abundance of our heart in what we give back to the Lord, not out of the abundance of monetary riches.

No one here is teaching that being broke is to be spiritual as that type of teaching comes against what God has already spoken in His word of what the abundance is. Should we not be seeking Spiritual riches rather than earthly riches as the abundance from God are Spiritual, not worldly as we came into this world with nothing and will leave not taking anything with us. Our abundance is that of Divine blessings as we are good stewards over all we have just like the widow who little but gave much as she gave from her heart, Luke 21:1-4.

1Timothy 6: 17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[for_his_glory]

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Whether it has anything to do with NT Christianity, its still a fact the that the tithe means 10%.
Thats what it means.
Should you tithe, does it matter.?..... Well we know that Paul says that a Pastor is to be paid for being a Pastor.
Some "double wages" depending on what they are doing.
So, this comes out of something, and if you have an idea of what that is that is not the tithe,.., im happy to hear it.

I know this...
A Pastor is to be paid for pastoring, as its not a part time call that God gave them.
Its their JOB, its their ministry.
So, the money to pay them has to come from the Flock he is pastoring, and if you dont want to call that a tithe, ...thats fine by me.
And also, the church building that is filled by the sheep, has lights and AC, and so forth, and this has to be paid for by the congregation.
So, if you dont want to see this connected with "tithing" then call giving money to pay the pastor and money given to keep your church's lights on whatever you feel like calling it, Rollo.
The name does not matter, but the giving does.

Paul in Galatians 2:19 did not say the law was dead; he said he was dead to the law. In other words the law had no authority over him because he was under grace and law and grace cannot mix, Galatians 2:21. The law is not dead as some teach. You can live under the Law if you choose, but Galatians 3:10-13 states the law is very much alive, so alive that it carries a curse with it if violated trying to live by it.

Paul never taught tithing, in truth he taught against it. Tithing is not for the born-again believer today. Tithing was incorporated into the law given to Moses, Leviticus 27:26-34. The same law where circumcision was incorporated into, Lev. 12:1-8. We do not circumcise or sacrifice animals according to the law, so why do we tithe. Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. Galatians 3:10-13 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse and man is not justified by the law in the sight of God, but Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

When you tithe, if you do not tithe correctly according to the law you will be cursed with a curse, Malachi 3:8, 9. If you tithe correctly you will get blessings poured out upon you, Malachi 3:10. The blessings are not just all about money for there are many different types of blessings. In truth, if you tithe correctly the blessings of God would be overflowing in your life. Some of you, like myself, have been tithing and tithing and nothing has changed in your life. If the way tithing has been taught by man than all the ministries that have been teaching tithing for years should have so much money they would not have enough room to store it all and the banks would be overflowing with all the money you should be receiving by the way man has taught us for years.

Tithing has never been taught to be money in the scriptures. Tithing has put people under bondage and a lot of people need to be set free from the bondage law of 10%. Most people cannot afford to give 10% of their paycheck. They would not have time to count out 10% of all their perishable and nonperishable food items and bring them into Gods storehouse. The laws given to Moses in Leviticus 27 required all this. The storehouses that God was talking about was storing up food to feed the priest and scribes in the temple so they could be about those things of the Lord and not have to worry about what they should eat or how to provide food for themselves.

You can give 10% when you know the truth. When you do not know the truth and you are tithing because you are told to tithe this is called tithing under the Old Testament law. God does not honor this today. Just because we do not know the truth, this does not change God's word. We have all tithed. To this day has anybody ever showed you in the Bible where tithing is money? You have just taken mans word for it all these years.

The God I serve and read about in the Bible is not a God that would expect you to give the babies milk money to him. He would not expect your family to go without twenty dollars worth of food so you can give the last 20 to the church. Even the women with the two mites gave her last from the heart and not because she had to, but because she wanted to. If tithing meant money in today's world we would need ten or twelve banks just to hold our money. See, the over abundance is not happening. Tithing is nothing more than good intentions and good intentions do not get you your blessings. The only thing that is going to set you free is the truth of the word of God. Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; these ought to have been done and not to leave the other undone. See, the hypocrites do these things for show, but they do not give out of love. They give because they were told to do so.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

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Whether it has anything to do with NT Christianity, its still a fact the that the tithe means 10%.
Thats what it means.
Should you tithe, does it matter.?..... Well we know that Paul says that a Pastor is to be paid for being a Pastor.
Some "double wages" depending on what they are doing.
So, this comes out of something, and if you have an idea of what that is that is not the tithe,.., im happy to hear it.

I know this...
A Pastor is to be paid for pastoring, as its not a part time call that God gave them.
Its their JOB, its their ministry.
So, the money to pay them has to come from the Flock he is pastoring, and if you dont want to call that a tithe, ...thats fine by me.
And also, the church building that is filled by the sheep, has lights and AC, and so forth, and this has to be paid for by the congregation.
So, if you dont want to see this connected with "tithing" then call giving money to pay the pastor and money given to keep your church's lights on whatever you feel like calling it, Rollo.
The name does not matter, but the giving does.

Kidron, we all need teaching with Scripture.
But you sometimes sound like you've only taught yourself.
Double wages does not exist in Scripture.
It is double honor.
And that is not necessarily pointed toward a shepherd of the flock.
And tithing is a word that is specifically used for a purpose in Scripture.
The words ten percent instead of tithing are used in Scripture many times.
Have you ever wondered why?
There are several places in Scripture that teach us how God's buildings are built, paid for, and the upkeep.
There are a million Rabbis out there to ask how they manage to receive a paycheck.
Yet what do we do?
We tell people they need to give 10 % or else they are not good Christians, they throw as much guilt on these Christians as they can, and they find success with their finances.
All I'm doing here is exposing you and others like you for your lack of knowledge and understanding of God's Word.
In over 30 years, I've never heard a convincing tithing sermon or teaching.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 1 Corinthians 2:14 NLT

Then He added, “Pay close attention to what you hear. The closer you listen, the more understanding you will be given[a]—and you will receive even more. 25 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.” Mark 4:24-25 NLT

Well, I certainly can't argue that, now can I?
Good point, but it was not understood earlier.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

keep that in mind when you would try to falsely teach that prosperity is not connected to Him.

The fact that material abundance and prosperity for the Christian comes from God (when he has it) is not in contention. What is in contention is that being in Christ is a guaranteed ticket to that material abundance and prosperity, if you'll just be 'spiritual' about it. Paul is very careful to tell us the opposite, that godliness is NOT a means to (material) gain:

"men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain." (1 Timothy 6:5 NASB)

But you have been clearly making the case that 'godliness is a means of gain'. The whole point of this thread is that there is an abundance from God that is GREATER than any material abundance you can have:

"18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." (1 Timothy 6:18-19 NIV)

And this is the exact point that so many who subscribe to material goods being the abundant life that God gives us miss. Many of them simply have not experienced, or perhaps simply do not appreciate and value in comparison the 'life that is truly life' Paul speaks of above. That life is far more satisfying and abundant than possessing material things. And that hardly means we don't have any good material possessions. It means the person who has found the 'life that is truly life' does not covet the things of the world because the 'zoe' life Christ died to give us is far, far better and more satisfying and lasting.

 

[Kidron]

The abundant life that God has given us beginning with Adam and Eve is spiritual and not earthly as God has never been about monetary gain,

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AH, so thats the problem.
You are talking about the garden of eden's "spirituality" , before the law, before Abraham, before any covenant, where there was not even any MONEY.
No wonder...

And im talking about the "abundant life" that Jesus came to provide the born again.
These are not the same, as Adam and Eve were before the CROSS, and were before the Abrahamic Covenant that is a part of the "Abundant Life" that is a part of the doctrine of Salvation, that im talking about. = John 10:10 where Jesus is talking about how the devil comes to (rob, steal, kill) destroy you, and He came to do the opposite for you on the EARTH.

 

[Kidron]

Kidron, we all need teaching with Scripture.
But you sometimes sound like you've only taught yourself.
Double wages does not exist in Scripture.
It is double honor.
And that is not necessarily pointed toward a shepherd of the flock.
And tithing is a word that is specifically used for a purpose in Scripture.
The words ten percent instead of tithing are used in Scripture many times.
Have you ever wondered why?
There are several places in Scripture that teach us how God's buildings are built, paid for, and the upkeep.
There are a million Rabbis out there to ask how they manage to receive a paycheck.
Yet what do we do?
We tell people they need to give 10 % or else they are not good Christians, they throw as much guilt on these Christians as they can, and they find success with their finances.
All I'm doing here is exposing you and others like you for your lack of knowledge and understanding of God's Word.
In over 30 years, I've never heard a convincing tithing sermon or teaching.

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But you sometimes sound like you've only taught yourself.

Thank you for your opinion.


Double wages does not exist in Scripture.
It is double honor.

Some bible versions say what you are saying......i agree.
Some say this... Tim 5:17
"""Elders who do their work well should be respected and PAID WELL, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching."""
So, that is my take.
I believe you "doubly honor" a worker with a RAISE.
You dont believe this.......and thats fine with me
However, be certain that before you post "your bible version", as your reality, that you have checked out at least one other version.
See, if you had, you would not be thinking that "double honer" is not translated as money, in other versions.
You need to be more careful with your finger-pointing.
Truly.

And tithing is a word that is specifically used for a purpose in Scripture.

All i said was that the word MEANS 10%.

There are several places in Scripture that teach us how God's buildings are built, paid for, and the upkeep.

As i said, a Minister who ministers is to be paid for his work.
The church building has bills, and to build it costs money.
The sheep that are a part of this MINISTRY< are to give into it, as they are being fed by it.
If you cant understand this, then its your problem to solve, isnt it?

There are a million Rabbis out there to ask how they manage to receive a paycheck.

Thats not Christianity.......Different rules.

We tell people they need to give 10 % or else they are not good Christians, they throw as much guilt on these Christians as they can, and they find success with their finances.

You are asking me if i believe that a person should stand in front of a congregation or a TV camera, and tell you that you are under a CURSE, if you dont tithe, that you have "robbed god" of HIS Tithe.
That is what YOU are talking about, but im not discussing that yet.
Ive only been talking about the crazy idea that to be poor, is to be Christlike.
And as i said....If you cant love and serve God and have money, then you cant love and serve God and be broke.
You are the problem, not money, not prosperity.
But now i will discuss, a little, what YOU are talking about.
I completely and violently oppose any Preacher, Priest, Minister, Pastor, or Theology.... that tries to guilt trip money from my pocket, or tries to "fear monger" money from me, using Old Testament bible verses.
On the other hand, i believe and teach that Prosperity is not only spiritual gain, but earthly gain.
I believe that money, health, healthy family, "on fire" church,.... wisdom from God....."anointing for service"....and many other things are included in SALVATION, and not just being born again.
I believe that God wants his children to be healthy, happy, and prosperous in earthly life, as well as in spiritual life.
Christians who would argue with that, are ignorant and self righteous and 90% of them think they can lose their salvation.
So, ive noticed that this is connected.
Nearly everyone that cant understand the Blood Atonement and convinced themselves they can "lose it", will also believe that "prosperity" is not what God wants for His CHILDREN, as if Jesus came to die to make them BROKE.
So, in both cases, you have some extremely misguided people.

All I'm doing here is exposing you and others like you for your lack of knowledge and understanding of God's Word.

You have not actually exposed me.....you have only exposed that you didnt carefully read what i wrote.
im use to that here, so, no hard feelings, RT.
Try to do better tho, as its really not a good idea to use your opinions as your means to try to harm others.
This is not Christlike.

 

[Kidron]

The fact that material abundance and prosperity for the Christian comes from God (when he has it) is not in contention. What is in contention is that being in Christ is a guaranteed ticket to that material abundance and prosperity, if you'll just be 'spiritual' about it.

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I agree.
That is true.
The fact is, "God says that "he will bless whatever we put our hand to"
And the bible says, "It is God who giveth us the power to get Money (wealth)."
It also says "he that giveth to the poor, lendeth to the Lord, and i will REPAY"

So, its both.....its all of it.
See, God is a rewarder of diligence, of effort, regarding a BELIEVER....= PROSPERITY.
But he is also..."I cause the rain to fall on the just and the UNJUST".
God justifies the UNGODLY...."to him that worketh not but believeth on HIM who Justifies the UNGODLY = his Faith is counted as Righteousness".

So, the mercy of God, = GIVES.......as the nature of God is = LOVE.

This means he is good to all.
"For God so loved the WORLD".., (and not just the good people)
"Remember that its the GOODNESS OF GOD that leads us to repentance.."
Yet, God "chastens every BELIEVER"....Hebrews 12:6
Consider, that a sinner, unsaved, who is a good moral person, is blessed in their life, while on their way to hell.
While a backsliding Christian, is "kicking against the pricks" and end up a total loss, all the way to Heaven.

This is the thing about Christianity.......it is backwards regarding secular - rational thinking.
For example, to get something later, you do something now.....(sowing and reaping)
The secular person says....."i'll lift myself above the throne of God and become god, and pride comes before a FALL".
The Christian however Kneels in submission and God establishes them as a King.

 

[for_his_glory]

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AH, so thats the problem.
You are talking about the garden of eden's "spirituality" , before the law, before Abraham, before any covenant, where there was not even any MONEY.
No wonder...

And im talking about the "abundant life" that Jesus came to provide the born again.
These are not the same, as Adam and Eve were before the CROSS, and were before the Abrahamic Covenant that is a part of the "Abundant Life" that is a part of the doctrine of Salvation, that im talking about. = John 10:10 where Jesus is talking about how the devil comes to (rob, steal, kill) destroy you, and He came to do the opposite for you on the EARTH.

So you pick one part out of the whole of what I posted to prove your point, sheesh!!! What does having a Spiritual relationship from the beginning have anything to do before or after the cross or the laws as God is Alpha and Omega who in the beginning breathed His breath of life in us so we could be a living soul to have Spiritual fellowship with Him as He provided our provision. All things of God are Spiritual as He is Spirit and that is our abundance with Him through that of faith not earthly goods. Yes, the devil comes to kill, steal and destroy our faith, not our monetary gain unless God allows him to do so as a test of our faith. Look at Job and what God allowed Satan to do to him, did he give up his faith for worldly goods, no, he kept his faith and trust in God in the Spiritual things that mattered the most. A monetary abundant life is self gain, Spiritual abundant life is from above where God sits on His throne and they are totally different.

 

[Kidron]

So you pick one part out of the whole of what I posted to prove your point, sheesh!!! What does having a Spiritual relationship from the beginning have anything to do before or after the cross or the laws as God is Alpha and Omega who in the beginning breathed His breath of life in

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Here is what i do.
I pay attention to what someone writes.
Im not Jethro Bodine or Rollo Tamasi, who read one word in my 2 fairly long posts, and said....."Oh, he used the word prosperity...= prosperity preacher, = lets attack".
So, i dont do that.
I read, i think, i respond.

So, with you post, i took your first line, you main thought......."In the garden, all spiritual, nothing else matters", as this is your main point in 4 posts or more.
After all, you are certainly not trying to convince anyone here that money is really important and that God wants us to have plenty and to also have a very good life, ( tho im not talking about Trump styled riches.)
No, that would be ME, saying all that.
See, you perceive that if anyone says that MONEY is a God given "prosperity" to his children, then they are just biblically incorrect, or they are trying to overthrow (with money) the REAL PROSPERITY, which is spiritual.
And i did none of this....
All i did was post that its ignorant theology to reduce the abundance of God to ONLY the "spiritual" realm.
And its the same to try to imply that if someone is discussing the virtue of Jesus's Abundance is ALSO recognized as material gain, then they are somehow negating or reducing "spiritual prosperity".
Why cant it be both, when it is in fact both.
So, on this forum, what you find is that many will only connect the word "prosperity" to a prosperity gospel, which they hate.
However, prosperity really mean "increase", biblically speaking.

Paul spoke about knowing what it was to live in $$$$ abundance $$$$ and also, having very little, and he never said that he was more spiritual when he was broke.
Money matters, and its not sin to have a lot of it., and its not a virtue to have very little of it.
Your heart condition determines motive, and motive reveals you as what you are.
Living in lack, being broke, living in poverty, this is anguish, its SLOW TORTURE... and what LOVING GOD would want anguish as a normal lifestyle for His children that Jesus Bled out to save?
Our bible says we are worse then an Infidel if we dont supply for and take care of our family, and we look to our Father to supply......as He is our supply, as everything we have is His.
And included in all that is enough money to do it well, as God by His own words would be worse then an infidel if He didnt take care of His family....US.
See, God is not the author of double standards.....He does not require of us what He does not require of Himself.

 

[for_his_glory]

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Here is what i do.
I pay attention to what someone writes.
Im not Jethro Bodine or Rollo Tamasi, who read one word in my 2 fairly long posts, and said....."Oh, he used the word prosperity...= prosperity preacher, = lets attack".
So, i dont do that.
I read, i think, i respond.

So, with you post, i took your first line, you main thought......."In the garden, all spiritual, nothing else matters", as this is your main point in 4 posts or more.
After all, you are certainly not trying to convince anyone here that money is really important and that God wants us to have plenty and to also have a very good life, ( tho im not talking about Trump styled riches.)
No, that would be ME, saying all that.
See, you perceive that if anyone says that MONEY is a God given "prosperity" to his children, then they are just biblically incorrect, or they are trying to overthrow (with money) the REAL PROSPERITY, which is spiritual.
And i did none of this....
All i did was post that its ignorant theology to reduce the abundance of God to ONLY the "spiritual" realm.
And its the same to try to imply that if someone is discussing the virtue of Jesus's Abundance is ALSO recognized as material gain, then they are somehow negating or reducing "spiritual prosperity".
Why cant it be both, when it is in fact both.
So, on this forum, what you find is that many will only connect the word "prosperity" to a prosperity gospel, which they hate.
However, prosperity really mean "increase", biblically speaking.

Paul spoke about knowing what it was to live in $$$$ abundance $$$$ and also, having very little, and he never said that he was more spiritual when he was broke.
Money matters, and its not sin to have a lot of it., and its not a virtue to have very little of it.
Your heart condition determines motive, and motive reveals you as what you are.
Living in lack, being broke, living in poverty, this is anguish, its SLOW TORTURE... and what LOVING GOD would want anguish as a normal lifestyle for His children that Jesus Bled out to save?
Our bible says we are worse then an Infidel if we dont supply for and take care of our family, and we look to our Father to supply......as He is our supply, as everything we have is His.
And included in all that is enough money to do it well, as God by His own words would be worse then an infidel if He didnt take care of His family....US.
See, God is not the author of double standards.....He does not require of us what He does not require of Himself.

I agree in this day and age it does take money to get by on, but it's not the way God intended it to be in the beginning as God has never changed in His promises of true blessings to those who are obedient to Him, but many have changed God into some Jeanie type rubbing lamp expecting miracles to fall from heaven, but have no obedience in faith and trusting God in all things. Our Spiritual abundance and Gods provisions need to be more important to us than monetary gain. There is nothing wrong with having worldly possessions as long as you came by it honestly and being obedient to God with what you do with it, Deuteronomy28:1,2,8.

There is an old saying "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer". Why do you think this is so? My answer is that the majority of the rich prosperity teachers have no true Spiritual relationship with Christ as they do not walk by faith, but walk by sight as they would rather walk by the poor and destitute rather than giving them a helping hand. (I'm talking about those who,truly need help and not those who are to lazy to seek a job). Would these Pastors be like Job when God allowed him to lose everything or will they curse God if they lost everything. They may have started out being faithful to God early in their ministries until the love of money took them over to darkness as they no longer walk in the light of Christ. We truly need to pray for them to turn back to being obedient to God and faithful in all things.

This is what these prosperity teachers do as they walk by sight as their god is their bank accounts of that of what they gained by the poor widow who gave all she had as she walked by faith and trusted God for her provision as she gave from the heart and not told that she had to give 10% of all she had, plus an additional offering like many Pastors insist you give or you are robbing God of blessing you.

The God I serve and read about in the Bible is not a God that would expect you to give the babies milk money to him. He would not expect your family to go without twenty dollars worth of food so you can give the last 20 to the church. Even the women with the two mites gave her last from the heart and not because she had to, but because she wanted to. If tithing meant money in today's world we would need ten or twelve banks just to hold our money. See, the monetary over abundance is not happening to those who are obedient to God.

 

[Runner]

-
Paul spoke about knowing what it was to live in $$$$ abundance $$$$ and also, having very little, and he never said that he was more spiritual when he was broke.
Money matters, and its not sin to have a lot of it., and its not a virtue to have very little of it.
Your heart condition determines motive, and motive reveals you as what you are.
Living in lack, being broke, living in poverty, this is anguish, its SLOW TORTURE... and what LOVING GOD would want anguish as a normal lifestyle for His children that Jesus Bled out to save?
Our bible says we are worse then an Infidel if we dont supply for and take care of our family, and we look to our Father to supply......as He is our supply, as everything we have is His.
And included in all that is enough money to do it well, as God by His own words would be worse then an infidel if He didnt take care of His family....US.
See, God is not the author of double standards.....He does not require of us what He does not require of Himself.

When we examine the New Testament verses about material riches as a whole, I believe it is difficult to make an argument that the abundant life refers to material success at all. Three things I do know about material success: (1) It is very difficult to achieve material wealth with God as your primary focus (not impossible, very difficult); (2) it is very difficult to maintain and grow material wealth with God as your primary focus (not impossible, very difficult); (3) the magnitude of the temptations to which you will be exposed is pretty much in direct proportion to your material wealth, and very few believers or non-believers withstand those temptations.

In my experience, rich people who insist their primary focus is on God are typically like my law clients who insist "This isn't about the money, it's a matter of principle." (Translation: "It's about the money.") Grueling poverty is certainly no fun, but I don't believe it is an impediment to spirituality unless you have the mistaken notion that God is obligated to reward you with material success if you're a faithful believer. I come from a fairly wealthy family and have had the opportunity over the years to be quite wealthy, but I have consciously chosen a very modest lifestyle in large part because it gives me the time to focus on spiritual matters and, especially, because it does not expose me to the temptations that come with wealth.

To ask, "what LOVING GOD would want anguish as a normal lifestyle for His children that Jesus Bled out to save? seems to me little different from the questions atheists ask: What sort of God would do that, what sort of God would allow evil of that magnitude? What loving God would want a devout believer's three-year-old daughter to die of leukemia or worse? Yet it happens all the time - so apparently the loving God we have would want that for some reason that isn't understandable to us. Even at my human level, I can think of reasons a life of grueling poverty might indeed be God's plan for a believer.

I recall an article in the Buddhist magazine Tricycle where they asked about 20 Buddhist leaders, scholars and ordinary readers to respond to the question, "How much money is enough?" All the luminaries gave sophisticated spiritual and intellectual answers. But one guy who was an auto mechanic from my home state answered simply, "However much you have is enough." I'm sure they included his answer because it stood out as the truly spiritual one.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

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But you sometimes sound like you've only taught yourself.

Thank you for your opinion.


Double wages does not exist in Scripture.
It is double honor.

Some bible versions say what you are saying......i agree.
Some say this... Tim 5:17
"""Elders who do their work well should be respected and PAID WELL, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching."""
So, that is my take.
I believe you "doubly honor" a worker with a RAISE.
You dont believe this.......and thats fine with me
However, be certain that before you post "your bible version", as your reality, that you have checked out at least one other version.
See, if you had, you would not be thinking that "double honer" is not translated as money, in other versions.
You need to be more careful with your finger-pointing.
Truly.

And tithing is a word that is specifically used for a purpose in Scripture.

All i said was that the word MEANS 10%.

There are several places in Scripture that teach us how God's buildings are built, paid for, and the upkeep.

As i said, a Minister who ministers is to be paid for his work.
The church building has bills, and to build it costs money.
The sheep that are a part of this MINISTRY< are to give into it, as they are being fed by it.
If you cant understand this, then its your problem to solve, isnt it?

There are a million Rabbis out there to ask how they manage to receive a paycheck.

Thats not Christianity.......Different rules.

We tell people they need to give 10 % or else they are not good Christians, they throw as much guilt on these Christians as they can, and they find success with their finances.

You are asking me if i believe that a person should stand in front of a congregation or a TV camera, and tell you that you are under a CURSE, if you dont tithe, that you have "robbed god" of HIS Tithe.
That is what YOU are talking about, but im not discussing that yet.
Ive only been talking about the crazy idea that to be poor, is to be Christlike.
And as i said....If you cant love and serve God and have money, then you cant love and serve God and be broke.
You are the problem, not money, not prosperity.
But now i will discuss, a little, what YOU are talking about.
I completely and violently oppose any Preacher, Priest, Minister, Pastor, or Theology.... that tries to guilt trip money from my pocket, or tries to "fear monger" money from me, using Old Testament bible verses.
On the other hand, i believe and teach that Prosperity is not only spiritual gain, but earthly gain.
I believe that money, health, healthy family, "on fire" church,.... wisdom from God....."anointing for service"....and many other things are included in SALVATION, and not just being born again.
I believe that God wants his children to be healthy, happy, and prosperous in earthly life, as well as in spiritual life.
Christians who would argue with that, are ignorant and self righteous and 90% of them think they can lose their salvation.
So, ive noticed that this is connected.
Nearly everyone that cant understand the Blood Atonement and convinced themselves they can "lose it", will also believe that "prosperity" is not what God wants for His CHILDREN, as if Jesus came to die to make them BROKE.
So, in both cases, you have some extremely misguided people.

All I'm doing here is exposing you and others like you for your lack of knowledge and understanding of God's Word.

You have not actually exposed me.....you have only exposed that you didnt carefully read what i wrote.
im use to that here, so, no hard feelings, RT.
Try to do better tho, as its really not a good idea to use your opinions as your means to try to harm others.
This is not Christlike.

So all elders should be rewarded with monetary raises.
Yes, your church is very generous indeed.

 

[Kidron]

I agree in this day and age it does take money to get by on, but it's not the way God intended it to be in the beginning


This is what these prosperity teachers.

"""""""I agree in this day and age it does take money to get by on, but it's not the way God intended it to be in the beginning"""""""""


Well, we are not in the beginning.
Different rules apply now.
We are now in the "time of the gentiles" and Paul is your gentile apostle, and no other apostle has this title.



""""""This is what these prosperity teachers""""


Yes, i understand your issue with prosperity preachers.
The only thing worse is a preacher that preaches that you can lose your salvation.