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After The Rapture – All The Pigs Vanish
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calvin
Member
Calvin here,
Hello Chopper, we greet again.
I have heard this idea of the Holy Spirit a few times before, but I'm uncertain about how this might be exactly.
The Holy Spirits role is to point to and to glorify Christ.
I don't see though how this ministry would necessarily restrain the man of sin/antiChrist, though it'd be true enough that the man of sin would find it hard going to gain much headway in the light of Jesus.
Nevertheless, my thinking favours the Holy Spirit.
But I note that He is taken out of the way (of lawlessness) but not removed from companionship with believers.
When this happens, evil will rival the evil of Noah's generation.
Your thoughts?
Hello Chopper, we greet again.
I have heard this idea of the Holy Spirit a few times before, but I'm uncertain about how this might be exactly.
The Holy Spirits role is to point to and to glorify Christ.
I don't see though how this ministry would necessarily restrain the man of sin/antiChrist, though it'd be true enough that the man of sin would find it hard going to gain much headway in the light of Jesus.
Nevertheless, my thinking favours the Holy Spirit.
But I note that He is taken out of the way (of lawlessness) but not removed from companionship with believers.
When this happens, evil will rival the evil of Noah's generation.
Your thoughts?
dirtfarmer
Member
hello turnorburn, dirtfarmer here
Would you mind explaining how, "the removal of the Caesars under the "then" Roman empire", is the removal of that which restrains?
thanks dirtfarmer
turnorburn
Member
The Caesars didn't have the necessary credentials..
dirtfarmer
Member
hello calvin, dirtfarmer here
When the body of believers, "the Church", is taken out (raptured) then the abode of the Spirit is removed.
1 Corinthians 6:15 & 19
v15," Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
v19," What? know ye not that your body is temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
Do not these verses confirm, that if the body of believers are taken out then that also means that the Spirit of God is taken out also?
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
At His coming, the rapture will take place, and all Christians will be removed from the earth.
At His coming, the antichrist will be destroyed.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8
JLB
marie glen
Member
This thread has made me realize, and it seems true to me that however the influence of Christians and Christianity, thus the Holy Spirit's restraining spirit, is removed and taken out (of the way), it's then (after it's gone; or prohibited?) that the agenda which is man's agenda - for man to rule and govern the Earth (he's'evolved'! Has no need of a silly outdated idea of ...God!) will become fully apparent and rolled out.
If we think we see acting out now! And the sticking out of the tongue at God now.. just imagine once we get a bit further on down the road! No wonder they will declare and celebrate world peace! What with having declared theirselves to be God... [And having restrained and otherwise done away with all detractor's? A spirit of which, surely? we can spy evident in the world today.]
I realize the 666 individual will not be revealed or come to light until the saints have been "made war with and overcome".
We can see the making war with quite obvious in the world..
Remember how the Pharisees feared arresting Jesus, or getting rough with Him in public as they "feared the people" ..."feared the people would stone them.."
But we can plainly see how an intolerance of the faith is being educated into the generations... It's only a matter of time before human powers that be will have nothing to fear from the people who may happen to oppose the agenda.. It's a religion to them.. yes? Therefor the ends justify the means.. and any means necessary...
God bless!
If we think we see acting out now! And the sticking out of the tongue at God now.. just imagine once we get a bit further on down the road! No wonder they will declare and celebrate world peace! What with having declared theirselves to be God... [And having restrained and otherwise done away with all detractor's? A spirit of which, surely? we can spy evident in the world today.]
I realize the 666 individual will not be revealed or come to light until the saints have been "made war with and overcome".
We can see the making war with quite obvious in the world..
Remember how the Pharisees feared arresting Jesus, or getting rough with Him in public as they "feared the people" ..."feared the people would stone them.."
But we can plainly see how an intolerance of the faith is being educated into the generations... It's only a matter of time before human powers that be will have nothing to fear from the people who may happen to oppose the agenda.. It's a religion to them.. yes? Therefor the ends justify the means.. and any means necessary...
God bless!
turnorburn
Member
If we go with the premise that the Holy Spirit has to be taken out of the way it changes the timing and the nature of antichrist..
calvin
Member
Hello dirtfarmer, calvin here,
I might be wrong in my thinking here, but I see two distinct events.
I'm thinking that the influence of Christianity that has changed the world over the last 2k years will be diminished (and indeed we are seeing this now) 2Thes 2:3.
Then, as the effectivness of our witness lessens, the effectivness of evil will increase, thus allowing for the man of sin to be exposed and to hold significant sway over mankind.
So, the restraining influence of the Spirit will be taken 'out of the way', not 'taken away'.
Then after the man of sin has had time to act out his delusion of greatness, then the Church will be taken away and the Spirit will accompany the Church. Then the evil one will be destroyed by the coming of the lord.
So in sumary, the Spirit will be taken out of the way and later taken away. Two distinct movements.
But that is just my thinking at the moment.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello calvin, dirtfarmer here
While I will agree that the influence of the Church is decreasing, I don't see how the Holy Spirit, which is our "earnest", can be separated from the believer. The Holy Spirit came upon men in the old testament for the accomplishment of the will of God, but did not indwell them nor was the earnest of their salvation. The old testament saints were not part of the body of Christ, but were "friends of the bridegroom", the kingdom, and not part of the bride.
We do read of the apostasy, Jesus even ask "would there be faith found when he returns" Luke 18:8
Dear Brother Chopper, could or would any be saved without the influence of the Holy Spirit if He is removed?A third view would be the Holy Spirit.
I'll admit that the Holy Spirit being removed is the prominent doctrine taught concerning 2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I have to agree with Brother Mike that it is the saints in post #59 - http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...all-the-pigs-vanish.66631/page-3#post-1265971
I further believe it will be the bride of Christ caught up pre-trib we see with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 (Rev 5:9 - every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation) because there will be other saints caught up also out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:13-14 and the 144,000 shown with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) or mount Sion of Rev 14:1.
Blessings brother in Jesus' name.
Chopper
Member
Brotherly greetings to you my friend. I believe that when Jesus gathers the Elect Bride of the Christ prior to the tribulation period, the restraining Holy Spirit will cease His presence in light of antichrist's entrance at the half way point in that tribulation. The remaining "Church" which has basically been sleeping instead of dedicated to living an active lifestyle for Jesus, will pass thru the first half of the tribulation to wake up and prove their devotion to God's Son. Unfortunately, they will face persecution to prove their loyalty as a believer in Christ Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 2:6 "And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."
The Holy Spirit is holding back antichrist until God Himself allows him to enter the scene. Once that happens, the Holy Spirit will return to the New Jerusalem that's in heaven, with the Father and His Son Jesus.
calvin
Member
Calvin here,
dirtfarmer I almost forgot to reply.......seniors moment.
I'm not saying and never meant to imply that there would be any kind of separation of the Holy Spirit from the believer..that would be bad.
That would be contrary to God's word.
This falling away Paul speaks of, I don't know exactly what he means. I figure that one can not fall away from something, unless one is at that place.
I hate to think that Christians will relinquish their faith altogether, but maybe due to bad teaching, many, a significant number will be more or less luke warm and not on fire for the Lord.
Now as I look at :2Thes. 2:7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I see that Paul is not talking about someone / something departing and going elsewhere, rather just standing aside to let the man of evil do his worst. But I might be way off track.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello chooper, dirtfarmer here
Would mind explaining to me how "part of the Church", which is the bride of Christ, is going to be "taken out", and then "at the half way point", the other part is going to "wake up" mid-trib" and face persecution?
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turnorburn
Member
What is the head as it were wounded to death?
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Any guesses..
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Any guesses..
Chopper
Member
Dear Brother Chopper, could or would any be saved without the influence of the Holy Spirit if He is removed?
I'll admit that the Holy Spirit being removed is the prominent doctrine taught concerning 2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I have to agree with Brother Mike that it is the saints in post #59 - http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/after-the-rapture-–-all-the-pigs-vanish.66631/page-3#post-1265971
I further believe it will be the bride of Christ caught up pre-trib we see with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 (Rev 5:9 - every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation) because there will be other saints caught up also out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:13-14 and the 144,000 shown with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) or mount Sion of Rev 14:1.
Blessings brother in Jesus' name.
I fully understand your concern of the Holy Spirit's absence during the first half of the tribulation. That time will be a test to determine the validity of a Believer's confession of Jesus Christ as their Savior during the first 3 1/2 years. At the half way point when antichrist makes his appearance, the Holy Spirit will leave. The 144,000 Jewish Evangelists will take over the Gospel preaching and folks will be saved.
I also infer in this Brother Chopper that it is the Holy Spirit still present in Revelation Chapter Seven that does the sealing of the 144,000 during the first half of the tribulation. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The following excerpt is taken from a study book of Thessalonians at: http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/study_books.html
You may find interesting as that of another view.
There is "a time to every purpose under the Heaven" - Eccl. 3:1. Hence, there is a time for the "man of sin" to be revealed. What is it that "withholdeth," or "restraineth"? It is not the Holy Spirit, for He will not be taken out of the way. He must remain to deal with the Jews, and come as "the latter rain" upon all Israel. The hinderer is "the mystery of godliness," which is the opposite to "the mystery of iniquity." Paul here writes that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." Dispensationally, it began to work then. In Matthew 13:24-30, we read of "wheat" and "tares." The former are the children of God's Kingdom. The latter are the children of the wicked one. Both are religious. The wheat constitutes "the mystery of godliness," the tares "the mystery of iniquity." The harvest of both is near at hand.
The lawless one must be revealed in his time. Finally, there is a special meaning to these words. "Doth already work," refers to the time of the end, even before the full overcomers are taken away. The spirit of anti-Christ is crowding matters and pushing to the front. Hence, after the Bride is gone to glory, "the mystery of godliness" will be much weakened; and, of course, "the mystery of iniquity" will mightily work. However, the false claimant to the throne cannot be revealed until all of the Church who are destined for glory have been taken away. This very company, to whom II Thessalonians is addressed, plays an important part in restraining the "man of sin." The 144,000 of Revelation seven and fourteen the powerful link between the Church and the Kingdom people or the heaven-dwelling and earth-dwelling saints, will be the last restraining force. After they ascend, which will be the birth of the "man child," Satan will be cast down; and, eight months later, the false ruler will show himself off as God.
dirtfarmer
Member
What is the head as it were wounded to death?
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Any guesses..
hello turnorburn, dirtfarmer here
It is my belief that the "head" that was wounded as unto death is the eastern part of the Roman empire which was the Byzantine empire.
turnorburn
Member
O.k.. The Roman empire.. that empire fell didn't it?