After The Rapture – All The Pigs Vanish

[Brother Mike]

Dear Brother Chopper, could or would any be saved without the influence of the Holy Spirit if He is removed?
I'll admit that the Holy Spirit being removed is the prominent doctrine taught concerning 2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I have to agree with Brother Mike that it is the saints in post #59 - http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/after-the-rapture-–-all-the-pigs-vanish.66631/page-3#post-1265971

I further believe it will be the bride of Christ caught up pre-trib we see with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 (Rev 5:9 - every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation) because there will be other saints caught up also out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:13-14 and the 144,000 shown with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) or mount Sion of Rev 14:1.
Blessings brother in Jesus' name.

Amen, the Holy Spirit will still have a work, it's the Holy Spirit on a Person where the Salt of the earth and Light comes from. The body of Christ being here means that where sin abounds Grace abounds more. The removal of the anointed body means iniquity goes unchecked and the destroyer will take hold. Think of all those God saved on the account of Paul on the boat, or lot in Sodom whom God spared because of His man Abraham.

The 144,000 are here during the great pit opening by the sound of the Angel who's leader is Apollon. The best that come from the pit are forbidden to touch those who have the seal on their forehead. We are not here at that time.

The thing to consider is a tribulation to the time of the first angelic trumpet. At worse, we will not face the Wrath of God coming on the earth. We see the 144,000 appear as you said in Rev 14 in the throne room of God.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I also infer in this Brother Chopper that it is the Holy Spirit still present in Revelation Chapter Seven that does the sealing of the 144,000 during the first half of the tribulation. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The following excerpt is taken from a study book of Thessalonians at: http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/study_books.html
You may find interesting as that of another view.

There is "a time to every purpose under the Heaven" - Eccl. 3:1. Hence, there is a time for the "man of sin" to be revealed. What is it that "withholdeth," or "restraineth"? It is not the Holy Spirit, for He will not be taken out of the way. He must remain to deal with the Jews, and come as "the latter rain" upon all Israel. The hinderer is "the mystery of godliness," which is the opposite to "the mystery of iniquity." Paul here writes that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." Dispensationally, it began to work then. In Matthew 13:24-30, we read of "wheat" and "tares." The former are the children of God's Kingdom. The latter are the children of the wicked one. Both are religious. The wheat constitutes "the mystery of godliness," the tares "the mystery of iniquity." The harvest of both is near at hand.

The lawless one must be revealed in his time. Finally, there is a special meaning to these words. "Doth already work," refers to the time of the end, even before the full overcomers are taken away. The spirit of anti-Christ is crowding matters and pushing to the front. Hence, after the Bride is gone to glory, "the mystery of godliness" will be much weakened; and, of course, "the mystery of iniquity" will mightily work. However, the false claimant to the throne cannot be revealed until all of the Church who are destined for glory have been taken away. This very company, to whom II Thessalonians is addressed, plays an important part in restraining the "man of sin." The 144,000 of Revelation seven and fourteen the powerful link between the Church and the Kingdom people or the heaven-dwelling and earth-dwelling saints, will be the last restraining force. After they ascend, which will be the birth of the "man child," Satan will be cast down; and, eight months later, the false ruler will show himself off as God.

Thank you my friend for your reply. I believe, we only stab at the truth of John's Revelation. Whether the Holy Spirit leaves with the rapture of the Bride, or stays with the remaining Church, in my understanding, He can operate equally, whether here or in Heaven. (out of the New Jerusalem).

 

[Brother Mike]

Brotherly greetings to you my friend. I believe that when Jesus gathers the Elect Bride of the Christ prior to the tribulation period, the restraining Holy Spirit will cease His presence in light of antichrist's entrance at the half way point in that tribulation. The remaining "Church" which has basically been sleeping instead of dedicated to living an active lifestyle for Jesus, will pass thru the first half of the tribulation to wake up and prove their devotion to God's Son. Unfortunately, they will face persecution to prove their loyalty as a believer in Christ Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 "And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

The Holy Spirit is holding back antichrist until God Himself allows him to enter the scene. Once that happens, the Holy Spirit will return to the New Jerusalem that's in heaven, with the Father and His Son Jesus.

The Lord is coming to get His Church. He is not going to be concerned with those who He considers not His Church. Saying, I knew you not, depart from me.

Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:10-11)

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
(1Co_7:17)

Those that obey and serve him, filling the condition that He must be Lord over all they do, making their calling sure will be doing well in the body part they were chosen to be.

The warning letters to Asia Minor "Turkey" was to the church at that time and a warning to get things in order before the trial come on the whole earth. There is no such thing as the Lord Jesus having a broken and unproductive Church not doing what He called that body to do. His Church is those who obeyed and completed their race.

 

[Chopper]

Amen, the Holy Spirit will still have a work, it's the Holy Spirit on a Person where the Salt of the earth and Light comes from. The body of Christ being here means that where sin abounds Grace abounds more. The removal of the anointed body means iniquity goes unchecked and the destroyer will take hold. Think of all those God saved on the account of Paul on the boat, or lot in Sodom whom God spared because of His man Abraham.

The 144,000 are here during the great pit opening by the sound of the Angel who's leader is Apollon. The best that come from the pit are forbidden to touch those who have the seal on their forehead. We are not here at that time.

The thing to consider is a tribulation to the time of the first angelic trumpet. At worse, we will not face the Wrath of God coming on the earth. We see the 144,000 appear as you said in Rev 14 in the throne room of God.

Mike.

Thank you favored friend. You are right. Jesus said that He would never leave or forsake His those who believe by faith in Him. The logistics of how the Holy Spirit operates during the tribulation period can be interpreted differently. I'm no expert. When I get more revelation, I'll greet it with open eyes and ears.

Thanks again, may God's favor be upon you.

 

[Chopper]

The Lord is coming to get His Church. He is not going to be concerned with those who He considers not His Church. Saying, I knew you not, depart from me.

Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:10-11)

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
(1Co_7:17)

Those that obey and serve him, filling the condition that He must be Lord over all they do, making their calling sure will be doing well in the body part they were chosen to be.

The warning letters to Asia Minor "Turkey" was to the church at that time and a warning to get things in order before the trial come on the whole earth. There is no such thing as the Lord Jesus having a broken and unproductive Church not doing what He called that body to do. His Church is those who obeyed and completed their race.

Hey, if that's what you've been taught, fine. I see three groups in any church. Those on fire, those who are not and those who are faking Christianity.

 

[turnorburn]

My question was always.. How can the Holy Spirit be taken out when God is everywhere?

 

[ezrider]

Hey, if that's what you've been taught, fine. I see three groups in any church. Those on fire, those who are not and those who are faking Christianity.

The eyes of flesh see what they want to see. I too see three groups. Those on fire, why they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, for they not knowing the righteousness of God, set out to establish their own righteousness. They are on fire, like the tares gathered first to burn. For in that day he shall say depart from me, I never knew you, and they shall say, but Lord, Lord, we did all these things in your name.

Those who are not on fire, well, there appears to be more than one faction in this group, but I do see those who have humbled themselves, who have come to rest under their vine and under their fig tree, where they can learn from the Lord without fear.

And the third group, the fakers. edited

 

[reba]

I am amazed at folks who have some idea the 144000 guys can

 

[Chopper]

The eyes of flesh see what they want to see. I too see three groups. Those on fire, why they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, for they not knowing the righteousness of God, set out to establish their own righteousness. They are on fire, like the tares gathered first to burn. For in that day he shall say depart from me, I never knew you, and they shall say, but Lord, Lord, we did all these things in your name.

Those who are not on fire, well, there appears to be more than one faction in this group, but I do see those who have humbled themselves, who have come to rest under their vine and under their fig tree, where they can learn from the Lord without fear.

And the third group, the fakers. edited

You sound like all church goers are losers.

 

[Chopper]

My question was always.. How can the Holy Spirit be taken out when God is everywhere?

That's kind of my point. If God is everywhere, then the Holy Spirit is everywhere. The first half of the tribulation period has the Elect Bride of Christ being gathered to Jesus, as per....Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." Since the word "brothers" is used, these are church folk. The Elect Bride, small segment of the Church will not even think about falling away. On the other hand, the folk who have come to believe in Jesus thru the "General call" must be warned because some will fall away such as in the great apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[turnorburn]

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

If the seventh was the Roman empire "most say that it is" the new beast is the eighth.. meaning he's been in business for quite some time..

 

[turnorburn]

That's kind of my point. If God is everywhere, then the Holy Spirit is everywhere. The first half of the tribulation period has the Elect Bride of Christ being gathered to Jesus, as per....Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." Since the word "brothers" is used, these are church folk. The Elect Bride, small segment of the Church will not even think about falling away. On the other hand, the folk who have come to believe in Jesus thru the "General call" must be warned because some will fall away such as in the great apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Its my belief that the falling away began when the 8th beast took charge..

In other words the persecutions under the Caesars stopped for a short time and then were re-instituted under the next regime.. and the body of Christ went into hiding..

 

[Brother Mike]

My question was always.. How can the Holy Spirit be taken out when God is everywhere?

What scripture is God everywhere? Did not the Holy Spirit come on the Kings and prophets of old. Those without hope, without God, is God also there with them? Did the Lord not go down to see if the cry of sin matched the sin in Sodom? Did He not look at Babbel?

Num 14:43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

More scripture, less religion.

Hey, if that's what you've been taught, fine. I see three groups in any church. Those on fire, those who are not and those who are faking Christianity.

We don't know everything, so it's a safe bet to push this idea on folks.

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Run the race set before you, do all that He said do, and with all your heart be purpose minded in the things the Lord has planed for you.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[Free]

What scripture is God everywhere? Did not the Holy Spirit come on the Kings and prophets of old. Those without hope, without God, is God also there with them? Did the Lord not go down to see if the cry of sin matched the sin in Sodom? Did He not look at Babbel?

Num 14:43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.

More scripture, less religion.

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psa 139:5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Psa 139:10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"
Psa 139:12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. (ESV)

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good. (ESV)

Jer 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away?
Jer 23:24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD. (ESV)

We have to recognize the tension that exists with God being omnipresent yet able to seemingly withdraw himself or make his presence even felt more intensely.

 

[Brother Mike]

Psa 139:1 To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
Psa 139:3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psa 139:5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Psa 139:10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"
Psa 139:12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you. (ESV)

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good. (ESV)

Jer 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away?
Jer 23:24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD. (ESV)

We have to recognize the tension that exists with God being omnipresent yet able to seemingly withdraw himself or make his presence even felt more intensely.

We need to recognize there is no scripture saying God is omnipresent, and figure what causes God to be with you and those things where He can't be found.

For God tries the reigns of the heart and every man is rewarded according to his ways. Able to know afar off is not being present, and happy is the man whom the Lord is with.

Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

So it seems when He is there, there is help, but forsaken and not there, trouble comes.

 

[ezrider]

You sound like all church goers are losers.

But no more than you did. I'm wondering if you even hear yourself Chopper. You see group 1 as being super great, while you listed groups 2 and 3 as the losers. On the other hand I saw some from group 2 as being humble and following the Lord. So I guess if you saw your other two groups as losers, then I guess for the sake of consistency in your terminology, then I saw groups 1 & 3 as being losers. But again. YOU are the one that SEES them as LOSERS. You are projecting your sight in your conclusions of my thoughts, and yet you only know what I said about groups 1 & 2. But what I said about group 3, I guess shall remain a mystery to you. But I'm wondering, why do you see these church goers as losers? Is it because someones been telling you that the devil dwells internally in us because we have been found with evil internal to us? Because if Satan dwells in each of us, then yea, we are all losers.

 

[reba]

careful guys to TRY and stay on topic

 

[jasonc]

careful guys to TRY and stay on topic

I haven't posted, yet

 

[ezrider]

Oh, back to the OP. The rapture.

No sense arguing about it. You were told to seek first the kingdom of God. But you weren't looking for it. You were told to walk after the Spirit, but you gloried in the flesh. The rapture, it already happened. But politics and sin reigned over the children the flesh. Sorry to inform you, but you've been left behind.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Oh, back to the OP. The rapture.

No sense arguing about it. You were told to seek first the kingdom of God. But you weren't looking for it. You were told to walk after the Spirit, but you gloried in the flesh. The rapture, it already happened. But politics and sin reigned over the children the flesh. Sorry to inform you, but you've been left behind.

hello ezrider, dirtfarmer here

When did the "rapture" happen? in 70 A.D.?