again and again i hear this

[Jethro Bodine]

That is a very pessimistic outlook.....with God all things are possible, are they not?
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And that's what I said: The true peaceful, unified church we all are looking for won't happen until the end of the age when the trash gets burned off from it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They did not acquuire a sacrificial belief in God through simple happenchance; someone had to teach them.

And while you were typing that, I was typing post #60.

I'm saying, our expectations for unity are unrealistic and misguided. Everyone has their own relationship with God unique to them alone. We can't expect the variance in our places with God to allow the outward unity we crave to happen. Not until "we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God" (Ephesians 4:13 NASB) will that happen. That ain't gonna happen until the work of the ministry ends at the end of the age and we are transformed into the likeness of Christ. Until then we have our own personal relationships with God, and maybe an edifying relationship with a handful of fellow believers who are in an approximate time and place in their own relationship with God as you yourself are.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm in a high place with God right now, listening to music on YouTube, meditating on these and other things, but I know it will be impossible to enjoy it with someone else. But so be it. 'Alone except for God, but what a Great exception He is'. If somehow I can help someone get that for themselves, that's the most I can hope for.

 

[civilwarbuff]

And that's what I said: The true peaceful, unified church we all are looking for won't happen until the end of the age when the trash gets burned off from it.

You must not understand that scripture then. It tells of a multitude which could not be numbered/counted which lose their lives because of belief in Messiah in the Great Tribulation which is still to come. If, as you seem to believe, this great multitude does not exist at this time then where do they come from?.....where do they learn of this faith that allows them to sacrifice their lives for their belief if not from other believers? You don't believe they simply miraculously acquire it, do you? Does it not make far more sense that it is taught to them through the Church?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If, as you seem to believe, this great multitude does not exist at this time then where do they come from?

It does exist. But not in unity, but dispersed throughout the nations.
You are not here with me in this high place I'm at with God right now. And it will be impossible for you to be. When the prophecy gets fulfilled in Revelation, then we will be together in that kind of unity. Until then we will struggle and scrape against one another as is happening right now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.....where do they learn of this faith that allows them to sacrifice their lives for their belief if not from other believers? You don't believe they simply miraculously acquire it, do you? Does it not make far more sense that it is taught to them through the Church?

It comes painfully and slowly through bits and pieces of knowledge we pick up along the way in our various encounters with people in this life. To think the organized church as a whole is doing this to any meaningful extent, except for a few minor exceptions, is to not be realistic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are not here with me in this high place I'm at with God right now. And it will be impossible for you to be.

And so you won't misunderstand what I'm saying...
There will be a time when you are in a high and wonderful place, reveling in the Holy Spirit of God and I won't, and can't, be there with you because of my particular place with God at this time. That's just how it is in this life. We have to accept that and stop striving for a unity that God himself has not ordained in this life.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I am guessing this is a personal/denominational belief as I am not aware of any scripture that would support that position (outside the great falling away toward the end times); would that be correct? If you have scriptural support I would love to see it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am guessing this is a personal/denominational belief

Well of course you guess that because it's not YOUR personal/ denominational belief.
The best unity that we can hope for in this life, in this very situation we're in right now, is that you stay calm, don't start attacking and go your way with your relationship with God, and me with mine.

The unity we can have in this life is the bond of peace, not doctrinal or spiritual revelation. Until then, as I quoted, we will all be growing up separately and alone. Complete unity won't happen until the resurrection.

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-13 NASB)

Are you there yet? Am I? Of course not. But what is sure is we are not at the same place in the building up into the stature of Christ. That won't be so until the resurrection. Until then we are to stay at peace with one another and achieve THAT unity.

"3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." (Ephesians 4:3 NASB underline mine)

 

[JAG ..]

Miscellaneous Points And Questions:

♦ Great thread, very interesting and it makes some very helpful and heart-warming points.

♦ I fully agree with the "spirit of the thread" which is clearly intended to encourage obedience to Ephesians 4:1-3 ("Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.")

♦ Question: Does Paul's behavior and example below have any bearing on any of the sentiments made so far in this thread?


__________________________________________________________
"When Cephas [the Apostle Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [the Apostle Peter] in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Galatians 2:11-14
___________________________________________________________

♦ Points From The Galatians Passage:
~ Paul clearly opposed Peter to his face.
~ Paul said Peter was demonstrating hypocrisy.
~ Paul opposed Peter in public in "front of them all."
~ Paul said Peter did what he did, because he was afraid of those that belonged to the circumcision group

♦ Question: There is no moral contradiction between Galatians 2 and Ephesians 4, isn't that right? Do you agree? (The great Apostle Paul wrote both passages.)

♦ Question: What Paul said and did in Galatians is perfectly consistent with what Paul said in Ephesians 4:1-3? . . . Do you agree?


`

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Miscellaneous Points And Questions:

♦ Great thread, very interesting and it makes some very helpful and heart-warming points.

♦ I fully agree with the "spirit of the thread" which is clearly intended to encourage obedience to Ephesians 4:1-3 ("Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.")

♦ Question: Does Paul's behavior and example below have any bearing on any of the sentiments made so far in this thread?


__________________________________________________________
"When Cephas [the Apostle Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [the Apostle Peter] in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Galatians 2:11-14
___________________________________________________________

♦ Points From The Galatians Passage:
~ Paul clearly opposed Peter to his face.
~ Paul said Peter was demonstrating hypocrisy.
~ Paul opposed Peter in public in "front of them all."
~ Paul said Peter did what he did, because he was afraid of those that belonged to the circumcision group

♦ Question: There is no moral contradiction between Galatians 2 and Ephesians 4, isn't that right? Do you agree? (The great Apostle Paul wrote both passages.)

♦ Question: What Paul said and did in Galatians is perfectly consistent with what Paul said in Ephesians 4:1-3?

Do you agree?


`

Well, I don't think the unity of the bond of peace means we never confront people. We just have to do it according to our gift and our faith to walk in that gift (thus my own decision to abandon a hope for church I had).

There is confrontation going on right now in this thread. As long as we stay in the fruit of the Spirit we'll be good. Some aren't very good at that (yet) and, frankly, I'm sick of it. But I get it....we're all at our own places with God right now. Unity will not be possible because of that fact. That's the way God has it in this age. There's nothing we can do about it. Accept it and move on.

 

[Nathan]

We cannot lay aside discipleship. It is our call in this life to do that. It was not just for the first twelve.

What happens is people come on here and think they have to make someone believe them in order to fulfill that call. When that happens we are no better than those who try to do so in a 'organizational' manner.

We are all disciples of someone. Some of us may not have a specific individual we learn from, but we did at one time. I do think there are cases that God brings a person into faith through His divine way. But those who are His can reach a unity of faith. There are just to many passages that say it to be so.

When we spread the gospel and talk about the things of God we may or may not see the fruit of it. If we don't see the fruit that's ok. God does. But we should never sit back and only be concerned about our own faith with God.

Paul was grieved in his heart to the point of exclaiming if it were possible he would be cut off from Christ for the sake of his brethren. That's significant. We should feel the same. It should pain us each and every time we see a lost soul in need of Christ. Not make us mad that they won't believe what we do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What happens is people come on here and think they have to make someone believe them in order to fulfill that call.

What I expect is to not be attacked. But I know that's not realistic. You stick your neck out and it's already ordained that you're going to get a beating sooner or later.

 

[civilwarbuff]

♦ Question: What Paul said and did in Galatians is perfectly consistent with what Paul said in Ephesians 4:1-3? Do you agree?

Maybe I am not understanding your question; scripture is always consistent yet not necessarily directly comparitive. Maybe you can give a further explanation of your questiion?

 

[JAG ..]

Question: Does the following event have any bearing on some of the sentiments expressed in this thread so far? What do you think?

Sharp Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas, So Sharp They Parted Company.
__________________________________________
"Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.”

Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work.

They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company.

Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
Acts 15:36-41
______________________________________

My view is that the sharp disagreement between Paul and Barnabas was NOT a violation of Paul's message in Ephesians 4:1-3 ("Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.")

My view is that the good Lord did not make His people "so fragile" or intend for us to be "so fragile" that we can't speak our minds in love, and can't, in love, confront our brothers with their doctrinal errors --- without everybody having a "nervous breakdowns" . . . lol ..

 

[reba]

Admonishment given properly is love, hope, charity, peacemaking , ....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We cannot lay aside discipleship. It is our call in this life to do that. It was not just for the first twelve.

What I hope we could dispel is HOW each of is to do that. It varies.

But we should never sit back and only be concerned about our own faith with God.

If you don't do that first, you will have nothing to share with others in whatever way it is that you are equipped to do that. The point is, accept that the glory of God is your's and your's alone. Don't have unrealistic expectations about others sharing it with you. Taint gonna happen. Not the way we are trained to hope it will happen anyway....that's the point.

We should feel the same. It should pain us each and every time we see a lost soul in need of Christ.

What about those already in Christ? Why is everything about the lost? This is the one thing I detest about the Bible belt where this thinking rules the church. I see the 'lostness', the darkness, in believers and I cry inside that they aren't being led to the glory of God's presence in their own lives, but instead are being beat over the head to lead others to Christ.

 

[reba]

You are not as alone as you might think/wish you were Jethro Bodine

 

[civilwarbuff]

What I expect is to not be attacked. But I know that's not realistic. You stick your neck out and it's already ordained that you're going to get a beating sooner or later.

I don't think any Christian comes here with the intent to attack a fellow Christian. However, when they are confronted with statements that what they believe makes them false Christians, believers in false doctrine, and other such it is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. There are far better ways to have a discussion of differences without coming across as deliberately antagonizing people. This is not directed specifically at any one person but is something that we can all get far better at (mea culpa).

 

[Nathan]

What I expect is to not be attacked. But I know that's not realistic. You stick your neck out and it's already ordained that you're going to get a beating sooner or later.

Most definitely. At those times we have the option of letting it happen or continuing it.

Believers should accept it and move on. When someone attacks us or the thoughts we share on here we should leave it be. Trying to defend it in a abrasive manner is not going to do any good. I do think it's reasonable to defend it in a manner that Christ would, but that is not to attack them.

I think there are very few times that someone will get on here and try to spread a doctrine that is way way off base. Even then, simple truth shone on it is sufficient.

When we set ourselves up as 'leaders' of the truth on an open forum like this we are being no better than those who do such in organized religions.

I remember a pastor once exclaim that if no one follows him he cannot be a shepherd like he was called to be. I always thought if he was a shepherd like he should be then people would follow him.

Look at Jesus. He told His disciples to follow Him, but He did not make them. At one point He had a whole lot following Him and then He said something that was hard for them to grasp. Many turned away from Him then but He did not say anything other than ask the twelve if they too wanted to leave.

Jesus was a good shepherd and His sheep followed Him because of that.