Apology

[hhh]

I was reading Apology the other day; and I noticed, Paul quoted Socrates!

Socrates said, "To die is gain."
Paul said, "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
Philippians 1:21

I have been studying ancient literature, after 30 years of exclusive Bible reading; because I found verses in The Bible that say things like... God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 15:14

Has anybody else read Apology? If so, what do you think of Socrates planning for death?

Do you think possibly Paul took alot of strength from reading Socrates?

I do think Paul got strength from reading what Socrates said.

Paul did quote him.

 

[eng35]

I've read apology, although it has been a while. I don't think Paul necessarily took strength from reading Socrates. I think it is more likely that Paul came to his conclusions independent from Socrates. From a metaphysical standpoint Socrates held fairly similar beliefs to Christians, so I don't think it's surprising that Socrates came to this conclusion. Also, Socrates life was devoted to seeking truth. God is truth and we are promised that if we seek God we will find him so if Socrates was truly dedicated to seeking truth than it wouldn't be surprising to see such metaphysical similarities. The reason I don't think Paul would have pulled from Socrates was because of the way that Paul came to his belief system. If Paul would have gone through a gradual transition that led to his belief that to die is gain, then I would find it more likely that he had perhaps been influenced from Socrates; however, his beliefs abruptly changed from one where to die was not gain to one where to die was gain and we see that this change occurred as a result of Christ's appearance rather than Paul reading Socrates so I imagine it was the Spirit who led Paul to write what he wrote.

 

[Eugene]

I imagine it was the Spirit who led Paul to write what he wrote.

Hi brother, your observation is perfectly in line with what Paul wrote in:
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

When Paul did speak for himself, in the following instance he stated it as being him, and not the Lord.
1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:

 

[hhh]

Hi Eng, I read it two times in a row, when I noticed Paul saying the same thing as Socrates.
I was also noticing that Paul clearly quoted other Greek poets...
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your poets have said, For we are his offspring. Acts 17:28
It seems to me that Paul was a literate man; why do you think he would quote poets, and a philosopher from Crete, Titus 1:12, but not Socrates?

 

[hhh]

Hi brother, your observation is perfectly in line with what Paul wrote in:
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

When Paul did speak for himself, in the following instance he stated it as being him, and not the Lord.
1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:

Hi Eugene, Have you considered this?

I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel unto you that are at Rome also.
Ro. 1:14-15

 

[agua.]

Hi Eng, I read it two times in a row, when I noticed Paul saying the same thing as Socrates.
I was also noticing that Paul clearly quoted other Greek poets...
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your poets have said, For we are his offspring. Acts 17:28
It seems to me that Paul was a literate man; why do you think he would quote poets, and a philosopher from Crete, Titus 1:12, but not Socrates?

Interesting HHH ! I've never considered this before. I googled who Paul quoted using " For we are his offspring " and it's Aratus and from Phainomenand and oddly it's about Zeus. It must tie in with the "Unknown God" the Greeks worshiped.

Act 17:23-24 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship--and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. (24) "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

Paul is such a great apologist and evangelist possibly he took a poem about Zeus and showed the Greeks that the One True God was responsible for their being and they didn't know Him.

Cool ! ( btw I love poetry and quote it often )

Oh also it fits well with Paul's ability to interact with people on their level using culturally relevant nuances to get the message of the gospel out. "All things to all men so that I might by all means save some. "

 

[Eugene]

There is much written of Paul’s use of Greek philosophy. Was it presented to the Greeks as a comparison of that they knew as a matter of debate? I really do not know, but it became the word of God. And you brethren are making me dig.

I found the following interesting comment at: http://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/paul-and-his-use-of-greek-philosophy/ “Paul uses the words, ideas and Greek philosophy presented by such philosophers as Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Seneca and many more intellectuals of his day, to help the people who he was talking to, better understand his teachings.”

 

[hhh]

Thank you Eugene!
What a wealth of information you are!
I never expected to learn all of that when I started this thread.

I would like to point out something I noticed...

In the link you posted, 2 Co. 7:2 is quoted like this...

I speak because I am convinced that I have never intentionaly wronged any man.
2 Co. 7:2

With the exception of the first two words, the Authorized Version, commonly known as the KJV, quotes Plato exactly...

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
2 Co. 7:2

 

[Mike S]

This is a great topic, hhh, thanks for the post.

Yes, I think quite a few of us have noticed similarities between Paul's writing and that of Greek philosophers. I tend to agree with that noted by others here that Paul used the language and culture of people that would be familiar with to spread the Gospel. I also think it reasonable to believe he would have adopted phrases and well worded arguments of others into his own work when it was appropriate. Is there anyone among who hasn't thought "I like the way he expressed that...it works?"

 

[Eugene]

Thank you hhh for your kind remark.

Something I could probably support is the parallel of our present vernacular even in the use of slang and clichés, and that would be something akin to “He ain’t finished with me yet” as describing my own deficiencies relating to my walk in Christ, and yet I’ve heard it repeated by a number of biblical scholars; we know what is being said without even knowing the original source.

Paul was dealing with a people proud of their knowledge, and I doubt without showing familiarity of their scholars they would have paid attention to his testimony because they sought wisdom according to 1 Cor 1:22. Now that to me did not bring them to God, but 1 Cor 1:24 shows it was intended as the power and wisdom of God to them that were called.

Hopefully this next thought is synonymous with the reason for Paul’s presentation to them, and possibly relates in some manner to 2 Cor 7:2.; did he give them his best testimony? Jesus said in Mar 6:11, And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. It because necessary for all men to have the gospel preached to them; some as a testimony against then, and others as the power of God unto salvation.

 

[hhh]

Hi Eugene, I think after awhile, you'll be able to tell the difference between me being polite, and being scincerly thankful; I am sincerly thankful for your input, especialy what you have added to this study. Thank you very much. With that link you posted, you have cut my study time by a lot! As far as our present day vernacular, I agree. I'm about to take this up a notch. God bless us all with charity.

 

[hhh]

Hi Mike, I'm glad you like this thread.
As I wrote at the beginning, this study began by my noticing... God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Acts 15:14-15
I began a thread with that title, and added scriptures that might go with this one too.
I would like to make it clear, I am not studying anything except The Bible for inspiration; I am only searching for principals that agree with the 66 books of The Bible.
Last night, when I was responding to Eugene, I noticed another scripture that I overlooked,

I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
So as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Ro. 1:14-15

With only my faith in God's word, my search is going into the writings of the Greeks, the Barbarians, the wise, and the unwise too.

I would really appreciate it, if you guys would help.

 

[hhh]

.This is taken from The Evolution Handbook. It is free to use.


One survey of 120 tribal groups in North, Central, and South America disclosed flood traditions among each of them (*International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, p. 822).
(1) There was general wickedness among men.
(2) God saw that a flood was necessary.
(3) One family with eight members was protected.
(4) A giant boat was constructed.
(5) The family, along with animals and birds, went into the boat.
(6) The flood overwhelmed all those living on the earth.
(7) The deluge covered all the earth for a time.
(8) The boat landed in a high mountainous area.
(9) Two or three birds were sent out first.
(10) The people left the boat with all the animals.
(11) The survivors worshiped God for sparing them.
(12) A promise of divine favor was given that there would not be another worldwide flood of waters.
Another survey of ancient Flood literature and legends is discussed by B. Nelson in The Deluge Story in Stone (1968). In this tabulation, the stories and writings of 41 different tribal and national groups were given.
First, we will list these 41 groups, many of which were ancient races. ("A and B" indicate two different sub-groups; example: Fiji A and B.)
Assyria-Babylonia (A and B), Alaska, Andaman Island, Asia Minor, Aztecs, Brazil, Cherokee, China, Cree, Egypt, Esquimaux (Canada), Fiji (A and B), Greece, Hawaii, India (A and B), Italy, Lapland, Lenni Lenape, Lithuania, Leward Islands, Mandan, Michoacan, Nicaragua, Papagos (Mexico), Persia (A and B), Peru, Pimas, Russia, Scandinavia (A and B), Sumatra, Syria, Takoe, Thlinkut (A and B), Toltecks, Wales.
Second, we will list twelve points in their legends, according to the number of times each is included by each of the 41 groups.
Destruction by a flood—41 times.
Some humans saved—38 times.
A boat saved them—36 times.
Universal destruction by the flood—24 times.
One family was especially favored for protection— 15 times.
The flood was caused by man’s transgressions—14 times.
The flood came as a result of a divine decree—10 times.
Birds were sent out first—9 times.
Animals were saved by the boat also—8 times.
The survivors worship God after leaving the boat—7 times.
The boat landed in a high mountainous area—6 times.
After leaving the boat, God spoke favor.


An even larger collection of Flood stories is to be found in *Sir James G. Frazer’s book, Folklore in the Old Testament (1919), Vol. 1, pp. 146-330. There are 11 Hellenic stories from ancient Greece, 6 European stories, 29 Persian and Indian stories, 31 Australian, Southeast Asia, and Pacific stories, 63 North, Central, and South American stories, and 3 African stories related in 185 pages of Frazer’s book; a total of 143 Flood stories. You will find them listed in Donald W. Patten (ed), Symposium on Creation IV (1972), pp. 36-38.
An excellent five-page analysis of confusion-of-tongues legends will be found in James E. Strickling, "Legendary Evidence for the Confusion of Tongues, "in Creation Research Society Quarterly, September 1974, pp. 97-101. Quotations from a number of sources are given.
"There are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets [of Mesopotamia], and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one . . It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America."—Stephen D. Peet, "Story of the Deluge," American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July-August 1905, p. 203.

 

[hhh]

This is also taken from The Evolution Handbook.

NOAH’S NAME—If the story of the Ark and the Flood is to be found among 120 different tribes of earth, should we not expect that Noah’s name would be remembered by some of them also?
Noah’s name is found in the stories and languages of mankind. That is a striking cultural evidence of the worldwide Flood which, itself, left so many physical evidences upon our globe. Not only do the rock strata and their fossil contents vindicate the veracity of the Flood story, but the languages of man do also! Here are some interesting facts

Sanskrit (of ancient India) is a basic language, dating back nearly to the time of the Flood. According to the legends of India, Ma-nu was the man who built the boat and then, with seven others, entered it and were saved. Ma is an ancient word for "water." Ma-nu could then mean "Noah of the waters." In Sanscrit, Manu later came to mean "mankind."

The most ancient man in the Germanic tribes was called Mannus. Mannus was also the name of the Lithuanian Noah.

In the Hebrew, "karat" is the same as "Armenia." The prefix Ar means mountain, so "Armenia" probably means the mountain of Meni. According to Genesis 8:4, Noah landed somewhere in the Ararat mountains.

The legendary founder of the first Egyptian dynasty was Menes; and Minos was the man who is said to have been the first man of Crete. The nearby Greeks said that Minos was the son of their god, Zeus, and the ruler of the sea.

The English (as well as all Germanic) words for man comes from the Sanskrit, manu.

The Egyptian god, Nu was the god of waters who sent a flood to destroy mankind. They identified Nu with the rain and the atmosphere. Summerians taught that Anu was the god of the atmosphere. The rainbow they called "the great bow of A.nu."

In Hawaiian, the word Anue anue, means rainbow

In ancient Africa, the king in the Congo was called Mani Congo. Later, Mani became the title of respect given to all leading men of the country.

In Japan, manu became maru, a name included in most Japanese ship names. Chinese mythology taught that Hakudo Maru came down from heaven to teach men how to build ships. We know that Noah was the first shipbuilder and that all ancient and modern hulls are basically designed in the same manner. The ancient boats were copied from an archtype. The Ark was the great pattern boat. Men who had to traverse the coasts of the new oceans knew that, nestled in the mountains of Ararat, was a boat which had successfully done it. They carefully copied its structural design.
In Japanese, Maru also means a protective circle or enclosure of refuge.

The first people to inhabit Japan were called Ainu, and mai means "original man" in some Australian aboriginal languages.

Among the North American Indians, manu became minne, meaning "water" for the Sioux; hence our Minneapolis (city of water) and Minnesota (sky-blue water). Minnetoba (our Manitoba, Canada) meant "water prairie" to the Assiniboines.

In South America, we find the Nahuatl, managuac (our Managua, capital of Nicaragua) which means "surrounded by ponds." The fabled city, Manoa (meaning "Noah’s water"), was supposed to be the capital of the god El Dorado.

A number of important rivers in South America are derived from manu: The Amazon (named after the Manau), the Manu in Peru, and also the Muymanu, Tahuamanu, Pariamanu, Tacuatimanu, etc. In all of these, manu means "river" or "water."

The Egyptians invented their picture writing—hieroglyphics, we call them—soon after the Flood. Their word for water was a wavy line. When the alphabet was later developed, that symbol became the letter "m," for mayim, the Semitic word for water. It later became the Greek letter Mu, the Roman letter Em, and our Western M.

The Assyrian name for "rain" was zunnu.

The Roman god, Janus (our January), was originally the Estruscan father god of the world and inventor of ships. This could have easily have been derived from the Hebrew word for "God of Noah," and by the Estruscans, who pronounced this Jah Nu.

The Greek sea-goddess was naiade, which meant "water goddess."

The ancient Norse of the Scandinavians called their ship god, Njord (Niord), who lived at Noatun, the great harbor of the god-ships.

Noa in Norse is related to the Icelandic nor, which meant "ship."

The original Sanskrit word for "ship" was nau, which later passed into our English word, navy, nautical, nausea (sea sickness).

(We are indebted to Bengt Sage for the above information. See "Noah and Human Entomology" in Creation, the Cutting Edge, pp., 48-52. The publisher, Creation Life Publishers [Master Books], in El Cajon, California has many, many other excellent books. Write them for a book order sheet.)

 

[hhh]

With all of these nations having flood traditions... what does The Bible say about the flood?
Well, the flood oçcured when the earth was of one language, and of one speech; so there should be more similarities in the language before the tower of Babel.

Also, it was after the flood that God made a covenant with Noah, and his sons...Ge. 9:8-9
And God said unto Noah, this is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh which is upon theearth.
Ge. 9:17
When God made a covenant with every living creature... he also made a covenant with the Gentiles.
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
Ge. 10:5
Remember? Japheth (By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided.) was Noah's firstborn son.
Ge. 10:21

That is when God made a covenant with the Gentiles, and when, God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 15:14