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Apostasy

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Jethro Bodine

Originally Posted by Former Christian
In the bible, an apostate would describe one who has left following God, left following Jesus Christ. Today, it just means someone who disagrees with the doctrines of a particular denomination.
It may certainly be misused that way. But among us true Christians it is understood to mean someone who has departed faith in Jesus Christ altogether. It does not mean the honest doubter still clinging to the forgiveness of sins they have received through Christ. It does not mean the saint struggling with temptations. It means the person who has rejected faith in the forgiveness of Christ altogether, usually signified by their return to their old life, and of course their own confession of having rejected the gospel of Christ's forgiveness.

Originally Posted by Former Christian
To Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholicism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are apostates. To Roman Catholics, all other denominations are the apostates, and need to come back to truly following Christ through the true Church. The Jehovah’s Witnesses see “Christendom†in a similar light.
Now measure each one of these by what I just said. Only Jehovah's Witnesses are wholly suspect as to whether or not they truly teach salvation through the forgiveness of sins, apart from works, by the blood of Christ (I'm not ready just yet to put Catholicism into the 'wholly' category).

And even then, you will probably find young misguided souls among them who just haven't learned enough yet to know J.W.'s probably don't line up real well with the gospel I just described. If they really belong to God, He will lead them out from them and into a proper fellowship...unless they choose to become apostate.


Originally Posted by Former Christian
According to the definition using 1 Timothy 4:1, all deemed apostate are also deemed Satanic. Which would make all of Christianity Satanic, depending who you talked to.
Or maybe it depends on which Christians are actually adhering to those 'doctrines of demons'? I am a Christian not ashamed of that name (as Peter exhorts us to be) and I do not believe, or adhere to those doctrines of demons. You can't broad stroke all Christians into that category. It's impossible to decide one can not be called a Christian anymore because of doctrines of demons when there are still real Christians in the world who do not follow doctrines of demons.

You have to get out of the church of the world (the major denominations in Christianity, generally speaking of course) to know there is still true Christianity, and that there are still true Christians in the world today. Don't throw it to the dogs just yet.

I don’t usually quote an entire post. But in this case, I made an exception. I want people to read it again and see exactly where you’re coming from.

You say,

I am a Christian not ashamed of that name (as Peter exhorts us to be)

But you qualify that with,

among us true Christians

Twice,

You have to get out of the church of the world (the major denominations in Christianity, generally speaking of course) to know there is still true Christianity, and that there are still true Christians in the world today.

It’s just like the Catholics who think they’re the “True Churchâ€. Like the Eastern Orthodox who think they’re the only ones who are “truly orthodoxâ€. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses who think they’re the “true organization of Godâ€. Like the Churches of Christ who think they’re the “true restoration of the first century Churchâ€. Like the Recovery Churches of Witness Lee who think they’re the “true recovery of Christianity todayâ€.

It’s like the Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterians, Baptists, and a myriad of other Protestant denominations who have chosen to follow a long standing historic practice in Christianity, also practiced by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and don’t leave out the Evangelical Protestants. The practice of closed communion against everyone else for the sin of doctrinal disagreement. Those that claim not to practice closed communion, practice shunning, which amounts to the same thing.

I realize you can’t even include me among the honest doubters. But you can number yourself as an example of why I am what I am.

I won’t go so far as to call you an apostate, or Satanic. I won’t even say you’re not a Christian. I will say that you’re very denominational in your thinking. That I don’t believe in your religion. I believe in the unity of all Christians in Christ and by the Spirit. Not unity in a private club that refers to hemselves as “true Christiansâ€. Sorry. I am one who won’t be coming together over you.

NC
 
Comprehender

Just curious...
Is anybody aware of a Christian forum of people who have values, but go by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law?

Or maybe I haven't explored this forum enough yet.

Most Christians believe that the Law was abolished, except for the moral law, understood generally as the ten commandments or some part thereof.

I’m one who doesn’t believe that the Law was abolished. The verses that are interpreted to say that it was abolished are misunderstood. I believe that both are necessary. To follow the letter and the Spirit of the Law.

Jesus fulfilled the part of the Law that pertained to him as well as kept the whole Law perfectly. The part of the Law that only pertained to Jesus, we can’t fulfill. But that part of the Law helps us to understand what it was he accomplished by fulfilling that part of the Law. It helps us to understand the Lord’s Table, which in Spirit is an experience of participation in the body and blood of Christ. An experience of what Jesus fulfilled.

But we are expected to fulfill the rest of the Law, by keeping it, that is using it as a guide for our lives, through the Spirit.

Be clear. The Law has nothing to do with our Justification. We are Justified through the faith of Christ. Our own faith in God and in his provision in Christ, only puts us into the proper position to be Justified. In Christ.

NC
 
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CalledToServe & Fedusenko

Either I wrote my idea poorly or you misread my post, but we agree with each other. It is error to believe one can not have salvation taken away. I have said this in the past and I am called a Pharisee.

It depends on who is the source of Salvation. If the person is the source, by his faith or his works, then yes, Salvation is conditional upon the degree of faith and the amount of works. But if Jesus Christ is the source of Salvation, then it is secure in Christ, no matter the state of the one who is in Christ. Life won’t be lost. But the reward of conforming to God in Christ in this life, the reward of a life lived that wasn’t, that will be lost for eternity.

It also depends upon the nature of eternal life and whether or not we received it while on earth. Catholicism says we don’t receive eternal life until after life on earth is done. So that what is lost is the potential life that one might have had. If it’s received while on earth, as most Protestants believe, then it wouldn’t be eternal if it could be lost once received.

NC
 
CalledToServe & Fedusenko



It depends on who is the source of Salvation. If the person is the source, by his faith or his works, then yes, Salvation is conditional upon the degree of faith and the amount of works. But if Jesus Christ is the source of Salvation, then it is secure in Christ, no matter the state of the one who is in Christ. Life won’t be lost. But the reward of conforming to God in Christ in this life, the reward of a life lived that wasn’t, that will be lost for eternity.

It also depends upon the nature of eternal life and whether or not we received it while on earth. Catholicism says we don’t receive eternal life until after life on earth is done. So that what is lost is the potential life that one might have had. If it’s received while on earth, as most Protestants believe, then it wouldn’t be eternal if it could be lost once received.

NC

Again, 2 Peter 2 contradicts the once saved always saved. You can freely give up your salvation because of God creating us with free will. The Lord wants us to serve Him willingly. I will point out that God already had created creatures that blindly serve and worship Him, which are angels. However, He was not satisfied with this and created man to be His servants who can choose to follow or not follow God.

Once saved; always saved always ignores this fact of our creation. We have free will to serve God or not. It just so happens to be worse for those that serve God then walk away then it is for a person who never served God to begin with.

I will finish with that once saved; always saved is a man-made doctrine that has no scriptural basis for it. In fact, the Bible contradicts it in 2 Peter 2. Since it is a man-made doctrine I do not follow it nor will I ever follow it.
 
I will point out that God already had created creatures that blindly serve and worship Him, which are angels.

Lucifer chose to defy YHWH. That is will unless you say God willed it. Other than that I think you are on the money.

FC, why do you sign as NC? I assume Non-Christian. If so, what do you generalize yourself as for easy cataloging in my mind (besides Human)?
 
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Lucifer chose to defy YHWH. That is will unless you say God willed it. Other than that I think you are on the money.

FC, why do you sign as NC? I assume Non-Christian. If so, what do you generalize yourself as for easy cataloging in my mind (besides Human)?

We do not know if haShatan defied God or not. haShatan is a title given to a certain type of angel in the Old Testament that functions as a prosecuting attorney in God's court. Their job is to show where man has sinned against God and to present the evidence against us.

This is mirrored in the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness and in the fall of Adam and Eve. However, in later writings in the New Testament there appears to be a shift in the order of how things are done on the spiritual side. We can only speculate that the haShatan's rebelled against God.
 
Comprehender



Most Christians believe that the Law was abolished, except for the moral law, understood generally as the ten commandments or some part thereof.

I’m one who doesn’t believe that the Law was abolished. The verses that are interpreted to say that it was abolished are misunderstood. I believe that both are necessary. To follow the letter and the Spirit of the Law.

Jesus fulfilled the part of the Law that pertained to him as well as kept the whole Law perfectly. The part of the Law that only pertained to Jesus, we can’t fulfill. But that part of the Law helps us to understand what it was he accomplished by fulfilling that part of the Law. It helps us to understand the Lord’s Table, which in Spirit is an experience of participation in the body and blood of Christ. An experience of what Jesus fulfilled.

But we are expected to fulfill the rest of the Law, by keeping it, that is using it as a guide for our lives, through the Spirit.

Be clear. The Law has nothing to do with our Justification. We are Justified through the faith of Christ. Our own faith in God and in his provision in Christ, only puts us into the proper position to be Justified. In Christ.

NC

There is NO WAY to be Justified (Rom. 8:1) In Christ without full surrender to Acts 5:32 FIRST!! And even then OBEDIENCE can only be done through Christ. Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 This is why it is called FAITH... LOVING WORKING FAITH [[IF]] it stays such! (James 2:26)

And anytime one will not be LED (Rom. 8:14) of the Holy Spirit?? They are a soon to be APOSTATE! Gen. 4:7 will have a new 'desired' leader take over.:sad

Bottom/line is that all of mankind were doomed to extinction at Eve & Adams sin. God [offered 'HIS CONDITIONAL' way back]. And He gave mankind ALL THE MEANS NEEDED to come back to the recreation Born Again LIFE of the first Adam if the wound. From PERFECT babes to [[MATURE GROWN/UPS IS HIS REQUIREMENT!]]

And Their Eternal law, that of the Godhead, is our STANDARD of measurment of being Saved or Lost!! James 2:8-12
 
Not all Christian think this way. There are some who believe that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Unrighteous is defined by ones actions in 1 Cor 6:9-10. What does that mean? Claim to be a Christian and accept Jesus as your savior, but if you remain unrighteous then you will not cross those pearly gates.

This doesn't mean that you don't need the Messiah, God forbid, but that your actions matter.

Some believe that at least. Just throwing a monkey wrench in your blanket statement.

Actions do matter...as the manifestation of a continuing faith. People who continue to trust and believe in the forgiveness of God (the faith that saved them) show that they are continuing in that trust and belief by what they do. Specifically, in how they treat other people. Peter says the person who does not develop and grow up into the manifestations of the Spirit he lists have "forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." (2 Peter 1:9).


There are those who turn the gospel of grace, after they have received it as such, into a gospel of works. And there are those who turn the gospel of grace, after they have received it as such, into a license to sin. The truth, obviously, is somewhere in between. It seems apostates have a flawed salvation experience to begin with that causes them to go back to the world and it's ways, either in a return to sin, or a turning to the world's religions of self effort and self righteousness, or both.

While the apostate has chosen to abandon the faith altogether, there are those who have a flawed salvation experience who then make it right later. It should be no surprise that God is in the business of testing people's faith in God's forgiveness to see if it is genuine or not. We can tell who it is that is truly clinging to the conscious knowledge of the forgiveness of their sins, and who is not, by what tangent they go off into after they receive Christ.

As I say, some go off into efforts of works, and developing 'proper' worship and doctrinal beliefs (in and out of the church), while some think grace covers their willful return to their sins, both of whom are showing themselves to have abandoned the grace of God to some degree. But the person who is being obedient and changing into the character of Christ according to the fruit of the Spirit is showing himself to be holding steady in his faith in the forgiveness of sins through Christ.
 
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CalledToServe

Do you also think that Hebrews 6 and 10 also prove that one can lose one’s salvation?

NC

Yes, since in chapter 6 it says, in verses 4-8, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

In chapter 10 it says the same thing, in verses 26-31, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,†and again, “The Lord will judge his people.†It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Those two chapters make it clear that those that fall away from Jesus will suffer a worse fate then people that never knew Him. They also make it clear that those that fall away will end up in Hell through the use of the imagery of fire.
 
CalledToServe

You also realize that those verses, if that's their intended meaning, say there's no coming back once salvation is lost?

NC

No, that is not the intended meaning since in chapter 6 and 10 follows what is in the Tanakh where God always gives Israel a chance to repent after they've fallen away. What you suggest has no scriptural basis because of God's forgiving and merciful nature. It is the same with Gentiles through the process of redemption and sanctification. We all get a chance to repent for our sins and to be forgiven of them.
 
CalledToServe

Instead of changing colors, they should make it easier to post. Underlining doesn’t show up on a post. At least not with the method I use, composing in Microsoft Word and copying to post.

Therefore, rather than just quote Scripture and underline the pertinent parts, in my own words.

In Heb 3 it says that unbelief prevents one from entering the rest. And that is how one loses one’s salvation.

In Heb 6 it says that it’s impossible to renew such a one to repentance, seeing as they crucify to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame.

In Heb 10 it says that if we go on sinning willfully. Which is what one who denies the faith does. If we go on sinning willfully, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Such has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded the blood of the covenant through which he was sanctified as unclean. And has insulted the Spirit of grace. Which could easily be equated with the one unforgivable sin.

You can call God forgiving, merciful, and loving. But so do the Jehovah’s Witnesses and deny the existence of Hell on that account. Even God is limited by his own nature and character. Beyond a certain point even he can not go. And if these verses are referring to a loss of salvation, then even he can not go beyond what has been done.

Adam sinned. God could have forgiven him and renewed what Adam lost. But he made a promise. Eating the fruit results in death. Adam died. He had to do something other than renew Adam to rectify what has been done. He had to send his Son. Once that is rejected, there’s no turning back. We can’t blame that on God. It is the fault of the one who rejects.

The one who is born into the line of Adam, pretty much every human who has ever lived, is born into death. He receives life in Christ. If that can be rejected after it has been received, there is no verse that says that God will put that individual back into Christ. Because such a person has gone beyond what God has provided.

So also 2 Peter 2. If that refers to losing one’s salvation, then the end is worse than the beginning. If one could receive forgiveness and everything is alright again, then the end and the beginning would be the same. But that isn’t the case. The end is worse than the beginning because what one had in the beginning, one can no longer have again.

NC
 
No, that is not the intended meaning since in chapter 6 and 10 follows what is in the Tanakh where God always gives Israel a chance to repent after they've fallen away. What you suggest has no scriptural basis because of God's forgiving and merciful nature. It is the same with Gentiles through the process of redemption and sanctification. We all get a chance to repent for our sins and to be forgiven of them.

Lets stick to scripure! :thumbsup
See if one can learn from Psalms 19:7-13. And note 'perfect' law all the way through these verses. And then notice verse 13! And the Word of PRESUMPUOUS! It is not a one time sin that is the final problem. As bad as that 'known sin' is.
But the knowing to do right & just thumbing the nose so to speak at the Holy Spirits leading that in time finds the 'GREAT TRANSGRESSION' a done deal. Finished!

Ibid 19
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
[8] The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
[9] The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
[10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
[12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

[13] Keep back thy servant [[also from presumptuous sins]]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and [I shall be innocent from the great transgression.]


--Elijah
 
CalledToServe

Instead of changing colors, they should make it easier to post. Underlining doesn’t show up on a post. At least not with the method I use, composing in Microsoft Word and copying to post.

Therefore, rather than just quote Scripture and underline the pertinent parts, in my own words.

In Heb 3 it says that unbelief prevents one from entering the rest. And that is how one loses one’s salvation.

In Heb 6 it says that it’s impossible to renew such a one to repentance, seeing as they crucify to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame.

In Heb 10 it says that if we go on sinning willfully. Which is what one who denies the faith does. If we go on sinning willfully, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Such has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded the blood of the covenant through which he was sanctified as unclean. And has insulted the Spirit of grace. Which could easily be equated with the one unforgivable sin.

You can call God forgiving, merciful, and loving. But so do the Jehovah’s Witnesses and deny the existence of Hell on that account. Even God is limited by his own nature and character. Beyond a certain point even he can not go. And if these verses are referring to a loss of salvation, then even he can not go beyond what has been done.

Adam sinned. God could have forgiven him and renewed what Adam lost. But he made a promise. Eating the fruit results in death. Adam died. He had to do something other than renew Adam to rectify what has been done. He had to send his Son. Once that is rejected, there’s no turning back. We can’t blame that on God. It is the fault of the one who rejects.

The one who is born into the line of Adam, pretty much every human who has ever lived, is born into death. He receives life in Christ. If that can be rejected after it has been received, there is no verse that says that God will put that individual back into Christ. Because such a person has gone beyond what God has provided.

So also 2 Peter 2. If that refers to losing one’s salvation, then the end is worse than the beginning. If one could receive forgiveness and everything is alright again, then the end and the beginning would be the same. But that isn’t the case. The end is worse than the beginning because what one had in the beginning, one can no longer have again.

NC

I don't underline and I certainly didn't in my post. I bolded the appropriate parts of scripture.

Hebrews 3 is just reiterating Israel's history in the Old Testament. It is also a warning against unbelief in God and His plan.

Nothing for God is impossible, which verses 17-20 of chapter 6 states. There is also Matthew 19:26 where Jesus teaches, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Both of these passages reinforce the fact that God can do anything He wants to do. There are two meanings for verse 6 which renders a different attitude and tone of the message. The second version is "if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance." In verse 5 there is an interesting part that is prophetic, "and the powers of the coming age". This means that this only applies after the second coming of Christ since it has yet come to pass. Does it reference the times of tribulation? Who knows, but it's a prophesy. The Age of Reconciliation started the moment Jesus was born and will continue until He comes back a second time.

The flaw to your argument is that you believe that once you are saved that you will stop sinning. That is not the case since we, as humans, will always sin regardless of being a Christian or not. Christians constantly gain forgiveness of their sins through continual repentance of them to Jesus Christ. The point of Hebrews 10 is the maintain the faith in Jesus Christ and the warning of eternal damnation for those that fall away will be much worse.

Strawman argument since your comparing me to a JW which I am not. God is limited only to the point where He will not abide with sin. He doesn't condone it, but condemns it.

Misunderstanding of what death is from Adam and Eve's fall. The Garden of Eden symbolizes man's perfect relationship with God that was eternal. Death specified here is not a physical death since Genesis 3:22 makes it clear that Adam and Eve were mortal since their creation.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

The death that is written about in scriptures is the eternal spiritual death that is the complete and total separation of God between an individual person. Eating of the Tree of Life would have made Adam and Eve immortal just like God and the angels.

Do you sit on the Throne of Judgment to know that Adam experienced eternal damnation? No, you don't so you cannot make that determination. I cannot make that determination either. The only person that can is God.

Again you are under the impression that a Christian never sins after they are saved. That is not the case, since we are humans and we have a nature of rebellion against God. Christians have to repent always for their sins. Hebrews 3:13-14 says, "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."

1 Corinthians 15:31 bears this out as well, "I face death every day —yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Jesus said this in Matthew 3:7-9, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."

Jesus also gave us a prayer recorded in Matthew and Luke that is commonly known as The Lord's Prayer.

Matthew 6:9-15 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 11:2-4 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

As you can see scripturally, Christians must pray daily to be forgiven of their sins. The catch is that we have to forgive those that sinned against us in order for us to be forgiven of our sins.

This pretty much sums up that you can lose your salvation if you want to. You also have to work to keep it through constant repentance for sins you commit, whether its ones you know about or aren't aware of.

I can call God forgiving, merciful, and loving because the scriptures tells us that it is true. He forgives us daily when we repent. There is no limit to the amount of repentance that we can do nor is there a minimum. We do, however, have to repent daily.

Yes, it is much worse for those that came to the Lord and were saved, but then walked away from Him. I know this because the scripture says it. If you notice I'm not cherry picking scripture or taking it out of context. I am using it in the full context in regards to the specific chapters, books, and correlation with other books of the Bible.
 
Former Christian,

You misunderstand terribly. I am a true Christian because I admitted I could not do good in and of myself and fell on God's mercy and received his forgiveness. You'd be amazed at how many people think coming to Christ means approaching God in one's own goodness, even asking forgiveness for wrong-doing, but still relying on the merit of some kind of goodness they have inside of them to be qualified for salvation and fellowship with God. People who do this are NOT true Christians. They have not come to Christ through the cross.

I make no apologies for sharing this fundamental truth of Biblical Christianity. At this point I think their's a fifty-fifty chance you'd agree with what I'm saying. In all honesty, I don't know yet if you are one of the kind of people I described--one who thinks peace with God means a determination to walk in some kind of inherent goodness they are sure they have within themselves by nature. Feel free to educate me about your salvation experience and clear the uncertainty I have about you if you want.



It’s just like the Catholics who think they’re the “True Church”. Like the Eastern Orthodox who think they’re the only ones who are “truly orthodox”. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses who think they’re the “true organization of God”. Like the Churches of Christ who think they’re the “true restoration of the first century Church”. Like the Recovery Churches of Witness Lee who think they’re the “true recovery of Christianity today”.

It’s like the Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterians, Baptists, and a myriad of other Protestant denominations who have chosen to follow a long standing historic practice in Christianity, also practiced by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and don’t leave out the Evangelical Protestants. The practice of closed communion against everyone else for the sin of doctrinal disagreement. Those that claim not to practice closed communion, practice shunning, which amounts to the same thing.
They think they are the true church because of their doctrines and their various worship practices. The true people of God are the one's who have truly received and rely on the promise of God's forgiveness apart from the merit of good works as the remedy for the bondage of the sin that condemns them, and then show it more and more in how they treat other people. Sounds too simple, right?


I realize you can’t even include me among the honest doubters.
It depends. What do you doubt? The meaningless doctrines of churches? Or the fundamental truth of the gospel as I have been presenting here in this thread--the utter sinfulness of natural man and the forgiveness of sins apart from the merit of works? There are still Christians who know and accept this true gospel and that's why you can't toss being a 'Christian' and 'Christianity' to the dogs just yet.



But you can number yourself as an example of why I am what I am.
Once you fully understand how wrong you've been about what I believe you will know I'm NOT part of the reason why you have decided to not call yourself a Christian.


I won’t go so far as to call you an apostate, or Satanic. I won’t even say you’re not a Christian. I will say that you’re very denominational in your thinking. That I don’t believe in your religion. I believe in the unity of all Christians in Christ and by the Spirit. Not unity in a private club that refers to themselves as “true Christians”. Sorry. I am one who won’t be coming together over you.
You're not coming together over to me, even when 'true' Christian means what I've been saying--those who recognize that by nature they are utterly sinful and cling to the hope of God's forgiveness and His free gift of righteousness to be saved on the Day of Salvation?

I do not even belong to a denomination. In fact I'm not even attending a church right now. I read my Bible, and I am presently trusting and relying on God's promise to forgive me through the blood of Christ. I've been learning the truths of the faith that help me grow up into the stature of Christ's character according to the fruit of the Holy Spirit. That is my life, that is my goal. That is my 'denomination'. It just so happens that is what being a Christian really is. And I am not ashamed to be called by that name. And you would not come over to that with me?
 
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Just curious...
Is anybody aware of a Christian forum of people who have values, but go by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law?

Or maybe I haven't explored this forum enough yet.

I have never found a forum such as you describe - or I would be there:yes

There are some genuinely intelligent and kind people here but I think it is fair to say that many people are happiest arguing over scripture, even in 'General Talk'. It is often very hard to drag people back to the topic once they get on their soapbox so I generally just trade quotes with them for a while whilst they make fools of themselves;) In fairness though, once a moderator insists that we get back on topic, an interesting debate often just dries up and the thread dies - so we have to tolerate a bit of tub-thumping and deviation.

I hate to use the phrase 'Christian Values' but they are sometimes hard to spot here. Don't give up yet though, another open mind is good to see. There are a few of us.

As an apostate yourself, you have a perspective that most here do not have. I feel it may be helpful to others if you share a little bit more of how you were treated, how you felt and why you left your church. It is obvious that at least two contributors to this tread simply do not understand.
 
Aardverk
Aardverk said:
As a matter of interest FC, as an ex-Christian yourself, would it have helped you stay a Christian longer if people told you that you were an evil sinner when you had doubts or would it have helped you stay with Christianity if people were loving, welcoming, helpful, tolerant and open minded about the many interpretations of Christianity?
I assume that’s a rhetorical question.
NC
I am confident I know the answer NC, I wanted the answer simply to reinforce the point that I have been trying to get across to - errr, someone else.

Your subsequent posts seem to have done that very well though.
 
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