Are angels created as perfect beings?

[Pascal's Wager]

I posted another poll on another thread and someone (in a round about way) got me to thinking:

Did God create all of the angels as perfect beings?

If that is so, then how is it that a third of them rebelled, along with Satan, and had to be thrown out of Heaven (Luke 10:18, Rev 12:3-9).

Remember: these are the beings that shouted for Joy when God created the earth, who WORSHIPED God in His Glory (at one point) and praised Him day & night. (Job 38:7)

What on earth happened?

Is it possible that the angles are not created as perfect beings? I've never seen scripture that states that God creates the angels as perfect beings.

This is not some trite issue. There are important ramifications to the answer of this question: if the angels were perfect beings and they rebelled against God, then what are we to expect when WE are in heaven as perfect beings? Isn't it also possible that rebellion might occur within our ranks at some time in the future? Why not, if this happened with the angels (this, according to Jesus, no less)?

If God created the angels as imperfect beings such that they would revolt and try to overthrow God, then how could they be in Heaven with God in the first place? There is nothing imperfect in His presence, right?

 

[Nick]

Not actually sure, haven't thought much about it. But they were almost certainly given free will. How else then could Satan rebel? I'm leaning towards the second option.

 

[Paidion]

It depends upon what you mean by "perfect". He certainly created them sinless, as He did Adam and Eve. But He gave them free wills, so that they could rebel if they wanted to do so. Are you using "perfect" to mean "sinless"? If that's what you mean, then, yes, He created them as perfect beings.

Perhaps you are using "perfect" to mean "complete". Adam and Eve had a lot of growing to do. They were not complete. That may be the case with angels, too. The angles who did not rebel, might have grown to the extent that is it impossible, or at least, highly unlikely, that any of them will ever rebel against God. So no, He didn't create them perfect in the sense of being complete.

If by "perfect", you mean that they had the highest attributes of character as God has, perfectly powerful, perfectly knowledgeable, perfectly loving, etc., then absolutely NO. If they had been perfect in those senses they would be equal to God.

As for the possibility of rebelling against God in heaven, I think this is theoretically possible, since we (and the angels) were created with free wills. But I think that as we mature (become "perfect" in the sense of becoming complete, as God meant us to be), our natures will have changed in such a way that we won't want to rebel, and so it will be highly unlikely that ever will.

It's a bit like asking whether it is possible for God to sin. He has a free will, and can do what He wants. But because of His character, he does not want to sin.

 

[whirlwind]

They are as perfect as we are. They are us and we are them. We are now in flesh and upon our physical death our spirit steps out and we are with Him...in our spirit bodies....angels.

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measures of a man, that is, of the angel.

19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

 

[Pascal's Wager]

They are as perfect as we are. They are us and we are them. We are now in flesh and upon our physical death our spirit steps out and we are with Him...in our spirit bodies....angels.

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measures of a man, that is, of the angel.

19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

So your contention is that God created the angels as imperfect...and let them into His 'home', too?

Are you sure that that is Biblical?

How does one know from Scripture that angels have free will?

(thanks for responding. still love your tagline, man. Heh!).

~Pascal

 

[Across The Universe]

That is a very good question but I'm afraid I don't know enough about the bible to answer it confidently. When I think of perfect, I think of God, so no. But they have to be greater than humans, correct? Especially if they get access to heaven 24/7.

 

[Pascal's Wager]

I'd like to point out that these angels who 'rebelled' are vicious, evil beings, now!

They cause, instigate and get pleasure out of human suffering. It give them GREAT pleasure to watch a child suffer and die...to see people in the miserable clutches of drug addiction...to watch people destroy their relationships due to hatred.

These are not some benign beings who had a difference of opinion with God.

The get pleasure out of killing, stealing and destroying--and that "father of lies", Satan, is their leader.

Keep that in mind, when you're about to answer the poll.

~Pascal

 

[Pascal's Wager]

Not actually sure, haven't thought much about it. But they were almost certainly given free will. How else then could Satan rebel? I'm leaning towards the second option.

IMHO, it's not academic, Nick. This is not some trite issue. It matters. There are important ramifications to the answer of this question: if the angels were perfect beings and they rebelled against God, then what are we to expect when WE are in heaven as perfect beings? Isn't it also possible that rebellion might occur within our ranks at some time in the future? Why not, if this happened with the angels (this, according to Jesus, no less)?

The more I think about this, the less I like where this is leading..... :bigfrown

~Pascal

 

[whirlwind]

So your contention is that God created the angels as imperfect...and let them into His 'home', too?

Are you sure that that is Biblical?

How does one know from Scripture that angels have free will?

(thanks for responding. still love your tagline, man. Heh!).

~Pascal

No Pascal...my contention is not that He let angels in "too" but that we are the same. They are us and we are them. The only difference is we are presently in our flesh bodies/tabernacles/tents. We are the same spirit we have always been when God first created us "in the beginning," which was long, long before mankind first walked on earth in flesh at the beginning of this present age!

That same spirit from before enters our flesh bodies and when flesh dies...the same spirit steps out and is with God...angels! As we have free spirit in flesh so (did/will) we have free spirit in spirit. We know from Scripture that angels have free will as they rebelled with Satan and continued to rebel in this age...remember Noah's flood and "also after that."

Consider too....

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

 

[Pascal's Wager]

So your contention is that God created the angels as imperfect...and let them into His 'home', too?

Are you sure that that is Biblical?

How does one know from Scripture that angels have free will?

(thanks for responding. still love your tagline, man. Heh!).

~Pascal

No Pascal...my contention is not that He let angels in "too" but that we are the same. They are us and we are them. The only difference is we are presently in our flesh bodies/tabernacles/tents. We are the same spirit we have always been when God first created us "in the beginning," which was long, long before mankind first walked on earth in flesh at the beginning of this present age!

That same spirit from before enters our flesh bodies and when flesh dies...the same spirit steps out and is with God...angels! As we have free spirit in flesh so (did/will) we have free spirit in spirit. We know from Scripture that angels have free will as they rebelled with Satan and continued to rebel in this age...remember Noah's flood and "also after that."

Consider too....

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

Any scripture to back these contentions up, Whirl?

Sounds a lot like Mormonism/Jehovas's Witness stuff. Am I wrong?

?

 

[whirlwind]

[quote="Pascal's Wager":3macpkio]
So your contention is that God created the angels as imperfect...and let them into His 'home', too?

Are you sure that that is Biblical?

How does one know from Scripture that angels have free will?

(thanks for responding. still love your tagline, man. Heh!).

~Pascal

No Pascal...my contention is not that He let angels in "too" but that we are the same. They are us and we are them. The only difference is we are presently in our flesh bodies/tabernacles/tents. We are the same spirit we have always been when God first created us "in the beginning," which was long, long before mankind first walked on earth in flesh at the beginning of this present age!

That same spirit from before enters our flesh bodies and when flesh dies...the same spirit steps out and is with God...angels! As we have free spirit in flesh so (did/will) we have free spirit in spirit. We know from Scripture that angels have free will as they rebelled with Satan and continued to rebel in this age...remember Noah's flood and "also after that."

Consider too....

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

Any scripture to back these contentions up, Whirl?

Sounds a lot like Mormonism/Jehovas's Witness stuff. Am I wrong?

?[/quote:3macpkio]


Yes, you're wrong. I'm not at all familiar with Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

As far as humanity being angels the Scriptures I quoted before tell us that very thing. When we physically die our spirit immediately goes to the Father. It never stops existing.

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measures of a man, that is, of the angel.

19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Our same spirits that go to Him upon our deaths are the same spirits that were with Him before we were born in this flesh body. For that reason it is written.....

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him That calleth;) (13) As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Notice the tense in that verse. God loved and hated them...before they were born!

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

 

[whirlwind]

I just came across another Scripture to add to the above....it too is an explantion of what an angel is. When the angel released Peter from prison where Herod placed him, he "knocked at the door of the gate" and a damsel named Rhoda answered....

Acts 12:14-15 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. And they said unto her, "Thou art mad." But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. then said they, "It is his angel" But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened, the door, and saw him, they were astonished.

 

[Caroline H]

[quote="Nick_29":33qrjmqo]Not actually sure, haven't thought much about it. But they were almost certainly given free will. How else then could Satan rebel? I'm leaning towards the second option.

IMHO, it's not academic, Nick. This is not some trite issue. It matters. There are important ramifications to the answer of this question: if the angels were perfect beings and they rebelled against God, then what are we to expect when WE are in heaven as perfect beings? Isn't it also possible that rebellion might occur within our ranks at some time in the future? Why not, if this happened with the angels (this, according to Jesus, no less)?

The more I think about this, the less I like where this is leading..... :bigfrown

~Pascal[/quote:33qrjmqo]

But if Jesus has defeated sin and death, when we die aren't we free from the clutches of sin? I don't think that there will be another rebellion.

It depends upon what you mean by "perfect". He certainly created them sinless, as He did Adam and Eve. But He gave them free wills, so that they could rebel if they wanted to do so. Are you using "perfect" to mean "sinless"? If that's what you mean, then, yes, He created them as perfect beings.

Perhaps you are using "perfect" to mean "complete". Adam and Eve had a lot of growing to do. They were not complete. That may be the case with angels, too. The angles who did not rebel, might have grown to the extent that is it impossible, or at least, highly unlikely, that any of them will ever rebel against God. So no, He didn't create them perfect in the sense of being complete.

If by "perfect", you mean that they had the highest attributes of character as God has, perfectly powerful, perfectly knowledgeable, perfectly loving, etc., then absolutely NO. If they had been perfect in those senses they would be equal to God.

As for the possibility of rebelling against God in heaven, I think this is theoretically possible, since we (and the angels) were created with free wills. But I think that as we mature (become "perfect" in the sense of becoming complete, as God meant us to be), our natures will have changed in such a way that we won't want to rebel, and so it will be highly unlikely that ever will.

It's a bit like asking whether it is possible for God to sin. He has a free will, and can do what He wants. But because of His character, he does not want to sin.

I really agree with Paidion's answer above so I voted for the 2nd choice.

 

[NooneSpecial]

Doubt it. Satan himself was once one. The most beautiful one in fact.