Are there different degrees of punishment in hell?

[WIP]

I said:
"Once we separate from our fallen humanity, we will no longer sin, and not need discipline."

Sorry, I'm not following the question. Qualifies for discipline?? Or what?

Is it your position that those in heaven can still sin?

There isn't a human alive that will live a perfect life. I assume the discipline you speak of would be implemented after judgement for the offenses. Therefore, all of us, those saved and those unsaved, will receive their discipline after the final judgment?

 

[Hermit]

In order to believe one someone said, you have to first find a clear and unaltered way of finding out what said someone said (be it written, audio, video etc.). Once you have those, you can decide for yourself if you believe that said person is telling the truth or not. But do we have a clear and unaltered way of finding out Jesus' real word? Nothing He has written has been preserved. None of His contemporaries wrote a biography of Him. How can we be sure that the Gospels included in the Bible are the real word of God, when they have been written a century after His death? There are several Gospels of the same time that have been rejected, and when we have incredibly little historical proof of Jesus' ministry. So I'm at a point at which it's not that I don't trust Jesus' word, but rather I'm not sure if what the people selected to include in the Bible is actually His word and what they left out isn't.

Much what you said is reasoning (knowledge) from the body-mind (from body-mind-soul). Faith is a knowing from the mind-soul. It is through letting go of ego-self's fear-based censorship that one can see the truth. You know this to be true, because whenever we get caught off-guard (ego-censoring) we often agree with the truth, though we did not want to. So, let go of your fears while reading what Jesus had said in the bible and open your heart to the truth. When you do, you will sense a strong "YES" inside of you. That 'yes' is something you can trust to be true.
Remember, the trick is to let go of your fears, or else faith in you will be blocked, and fear will remain with you.

 

[FreeGrace]

In order to believe one someone said, you have to first find a clear and unaltered way of finding out what said someone said (be it written, audio, video etc.). Once you have those, you can decide for yourself if you believe that said person is telling the truth or not.

And...that's the issue. It's up to each individual to "decide for themself".

But do we have a clear and unaltered way of finding out Jesus' real word?

I think this is trying to split hairs. When we hear/read a statement, one of 3 things occurs:
1. we understand what was said/written, and believe it to be true,
2. we understand what was said/written, and don't believe it to be true,
3. we don't understand what was said/written, and therefore, cannot either believe or reject it to be true.

Nothing He has written has been preserved.

The obvious reason is that Jesus never wrote anything down. But we have a multitude of recordings of what He said and taught. The gospels quoted Him frequency. Paul quoted Him. What more do we need?

None of His contemporaries wrote a biography of Him.

I accept the authenticity of the gospel accounts.

How can we be sure that the Gospels included in the Bible are the real word of God, when they have been written a century after His death?

Your information is faulty. Paul's writings, James' and Peter's epistle, and John's epistles were ALL written before the end of the 1st Century. And Jesus was crucified circa 33 AD, so the writings were ALL less than 70 years from His death.

Also, over 26,000 manuscripts or parts of manuscripts have been found, and ALL are very close to each other.

There are several Gospels of the same time that have been rejected, and when we have incredibly little historical proof of Jesus' ministry.

This is what a non-believer liberal would say. And they have.

So I'm at a point at which it's not that I don't trust Jesus' word, but rather I'm not sure if what the people selected to include in the Bible is actually His word and what they left out isn't.

I guess your only recourse then is to just throw your Bible away, since you can't trust it. Good luck.

 

[FreeGrace]

There isn't a human alive that will live a perfect life. I assume the discipline you speak of would be implemented after judgement for the offenses.

Sure. Certainly not before any offenses. And all discipline will be experienced here on earth, before one dies.

Therefore, all of us, those saved and those unsaved, will receive their discipline after the final judgment?

I don't believe so. While everyone, saved and unsaved, will be judged based on their works/deeds, it won't be for discipline.

For believers, there will be the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, in 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

For unbelievers, there will be the Great White Throne judgment, in Rev 20:11-15.

For the believer, the judgment will determine eternal reward or loss of rewards. For the unbeliever, the judgment will determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.

We find the teaching on how tolerable or bearable eternity will be for unbelievers from Jesus Himself:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Luke 10:12, 14.

 

[gr8grace3]

Sure. Certainly not before any offenses. And all discipline will be experienced here on earth, before one dies.


I don't believe so. While everyone, saved and unsaved, will be judged based on their works/deeds, it won't be for discipline.

For believers, there will be the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, in 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

For unbelievers, there will be the Great White Throne judgment, in Rev 20:11-15.

For the believer, the judgment will determine eternal reward or loss of rewards. For the unbeliever, the judgment will determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.

We find the teaching on how tolerable or bearable eternity will be for unbelievers from Jesus Himself:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Luke 10:12, 14.

Great stuff Brother.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I accept the authenticity of the gospel accounts.

Even if you do, the Gospel still don't constitute a biography of Him. We only know about 3 years of His life. That's approximately 8% of His life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Even if you do, the Gospel still don't constitute a biography of Him. We only know about 3 years of His life. That's approximately 8% of His life.

So, what's your point? The Bible has given us ALL we need to know how to receive eternal life and never perish.

However, in post #9, you posted this:
"Well, yeah, I already know that I'm damned because Jesus raised the bar too high for me to handle, so the only thing left for me is to ponder on how bad my punishment is going to be."

It seems to me that you haven't believed anything of what Jesus said. So, in fact, you are damned on that basis. but it wasn't on account of any bar being too high for you. So don't hide behind that excuse.

Jesus said this in Matt 11:30 - For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He set no bar. There is no bar.

By rejecting the authenticity of the Gospels, you've damned yourself. He gives eternal life to those who trust in Him to save them, but you're all hung up on some stupid bar.

Well, get out of that bar, and go to the cross and believe what Jesus did for you (died and paid for all your sins) and what He promises those who believe in Him (He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish).

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

That's your choice.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

My choice? But psychology defines "belief" as an involuntary state of mind that cannot really be influenced by will. If belief was voluntary, then the apostle Thomas could have just commanded himself to believe in Jesus' resurrection before touching His wounds. If doubt was the foundation of damnation, then isn't it unfair that some people get revelations from God to build their belief and cast away their doubts, while others don't?

 

[Edward]

My choice? But psychology defines "belief" as an involuntary state of mind that cannot really be influenced by will. If belief was voluntary, then the apostle Thomas could have just commanded himself to believe in Jesus' resurrection before touching His wounds. If doubt was the foundation of damnation, then isn't it unfair that some people get revelations from God to build their belief and cast away their doubts, while others don't?

No, God is always fair and just. Some are more obedient than others is why some get revelation and some do not. Belief is not involuntary Brother. Whether you realize it or not, you make the choice to believe this or to believe that. We have been indoctrinated to accept no guilt, to point fingers to a different direction than onto our-self. Instead of thinking that God is unfair, try thinking about in this way...that what God says is true and he is no liar, therefore the problem must be with me.

What you believe depends on what is in your heart. You've been lied to your whole life about who you are, who you were created to be, the world and probably about the very nature of reality itself. Since you've had many years of indoctrination, these beliefs are ingrained in your heart. To get them out of your heart requires your participation, it takes work. You don't one day say ok I want to walk with the Lord and be saved, and then magically Jesus changes you into a perfect supreme being.

If we want to walk with the Lord and learn his thoughts and ways, then we look to the scriptures which tell us four big things to do. Obey His commandments, search the scriptures daily, meditate on His word and pray without ceasing. Reading His word, and hearing His word is very important. What you think about and meditate on is what goes into your heart and who you become.

So to get rid of the lies in your heart, your pour in new things to your heart. His Word. If you read every day, and meditate upon it, then it goes into your heart and displaces the iniquity therein. Like a cup which overflows. The iniquity runs out and is replaced with the knowledge of God and His ways. Some do this more than others which is why they get more results than some who wont do these things.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Are there different degrees of punishment in hell according to the amount of sins the people have committed during their lifetime?

Yes! (2 Pet. 2:20-21)

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

No, God is always fair and just. Some are more obedient than others is why some get revelation and some do not.

Obedient in what way? It sees to me like it's happening pretty randomly considering that people who are not even Christians and don't believe in Jesus have visions of Him:

while people who actually seek Him and want to find Him and pray for years don't get any answers at all (e.g.: Mother Theresa's case come to mind, but if you do an online search you can find many people who became atheists after following the commandments and praying for years without receiving any answers).

Belief is not involuntary Brother. Whether you realize it or not, you make the choice to believe this or to believe that.

Psychiatry disagrees with that statement. They've been studying human volition for almost a century, and there is no way to force yourself to believe. You can force yourself to behave a certain way, obviously. You can force yourself to pray, to fast, to read the Scriptures, to attend Church, to help the poor, to get baptized and baptize your children, to raise your children in the Christian faith, to do everything recommended in the Bible, but there doesn't seem to be a psychologically-proven way to bring yourself to believe when you... just don't believe...

We have been indoctrinated to accept no guilt, to point fingers to a different direction than onto our-self. Instead of thinking that God is unfair, try thinking about in this way...that what God says is true and he is no liar, therefore the problem must be with me.

What you believe depends on what is in your heart. You've been lied to your whole life about who you are, who you were created to be, the world and probably about the very nature of reality itself. Since you've had many years of indoctrination, these beliefs are ingrained in your heart. To get them out of your heart requires your participation, it takes work. You don't one day say ok I want to walk with the Lord and be saved, and then magically Jesus changes you into a perfect supreme being.

If we want to walk with the Lord and learn his thoughts and ways, then we look to the scriptures which tell us four big things to do. Obey His commandments, search the scriptures daily, meditate on His word and pray without ceasing. Reading His word, and hearing His word is very important. What you think about and meditate on is what goes into your heart and who you become.

So to get rid of the lies in your heart, your pour in new things to your heart. His Word. If you read every day, and meditate upon it, then it goes into your heart and displaces the iniquity therein. Like a cup which overflows. The iniquity runs out and is replaced with the knowledge of God and His ways. Some do this more than others which is why they get more results than some who wont do these things.

I disagree, but for the sake of the argument, let's say that what you say it's true and that belief is voluntary. How do you explain the existence of many people who have been doing the four big things (you mentioned) for decades, and have struggled to find faith for half of their lives, doing everything they could to seek God, engaging in the Christian community and serving as religious leaders, only to give up and realize that despite all their struggles they simply could not find faith?

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/27/5_religious_leaders_who_became_outspoken_atheists_partner/

Those people gave it all they could in terms of will/volition, but failed. What did they do wrong?

 

[markathome]

Those people gave it all they could in terms of will/volition, but failed. What did they do wrong?

Maybe they was seeking for proof when that's not what is required?
If there is a belief that the sky is blue, but then we observe it, where does faith/believe come from after that?
We no longer believe it because it becomes a fact?
Has the concept of the word "believe" changed?

 

[Edward]

Obedient in what way? It sees to me like it's happening pretty randomly considering that people who are not even Christians and don't believe in Jesus have visions of Him:

In all ways. It does seem to be happening randomly lately I've noticed. I guess that Jesus is doing what He wants to do, and I couldn't answer for Him. But random people having visitations and such doesn't mean that we can disregard what scripture teaches about obedience and so forth.

while people who actually seek Him and want to find Him and pray for years don't get any answers at all (e.g.: Mother Theresa's case come to mind, but if you do an online search you can find many people who became atheists after following the commandments and praying for years without receiving any answers).

I can't tell you what is in these people's heart. Maybe they're looking for the wrong thing, like seeking spiritual experiences more than Jesus Himself?

Psychiatry disagrees with that statement. They've been studying human volition for almost a century, and there is no way to force yourself to believe. You can force yourself to behave a certain way, obviously. You can force yourself to pray, to fast, to read the Scriptures, to attend Church, to help the poor, to get baptized and baptize your children, to raise your children in the Christian faith, to do everything recommended in the Bible, but there doesn't seem to be a psychologically-proven way to bring yourself to believe when you... just don't believe...

So are you choosing to believe man over God? It kind of sounds like it. Are you looking for a particular sort of answer, or are you looking for the truth? How much do you reall read your bible? How much do you really pray? More than how much you read psychiatric stuff?

Those people gave it all they could in terms of will/volition, but failed. What did they do wrong?

Like I said, I don't know what is in these peoples heart. God is not an entertainer, and He doesn't go around satisfying people's curiosity who have a whim. Scripture says if you draw near to God, then He'll draw near to you.

 

[Edward]

Has the concept of the word "believe" changed?

I've wondered about that, Brother. Perhaps it means a little more than people think it does.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Scripture says if you draw near to God, then He'll draw near to you.

Scripture also says that God hardens random people's hearts so that they cannot bring themselves to do what they should do (Exodus 9:12), and that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled them (John 6:44, John 6:65). I'm starting to believe that God wants certain people to be saved more than He does others. And before you go ahead and say that it wouldn't be fair, let me remind you that He chose a nation to be His own out of all the nations, He liked Abel's offering but didn't like Cain's and He loved Jacob and hated Esau for no mentioned reasons. It's not about being fair according to our standards of morality. It's about Him having created everything, including His Own standards of fairness according to which He decrees His will.

 

[FreeGrace]

My choice? But psychology defines "belief" as an involuntary state of mind that cannot really be influenced by will.

Well, some accept secular psychology over what the Bible says. That's your choice.

I am disappointed that my post #69 was not addressed in any of the points.

 

[FreeGrace]

Scripture also says that God hardens random people's hearts so that they cannot bring themselves to do what they should do (Exodus 9:12),

Was Pharaoh a "random" person? No, he was not. Let's not add what isn't said in Scripture.

and that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled them (John 6:44, John 6:65).

otoh, let's START accepting all what the text says. Like the verse IMMEDIATELY after 6:44.
6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

This verse informs us of just who comes to Jesus; those who have heard and learned from the Father.

Nothing random in that.

I'm starting to believe that God wants certain people to be saved more than He does others.

There are a lot of strange ideas in the world, and this one cannot be found in the Bible. So, where are you getting your beliefs from?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

This verse informs us of just who comes to Jesus; those who have heard and learned from the Father.

Nothing random in that.

Well, that's exactly the problem I addressed in my previous posts: some people just don't "hear" The Father in order to come to Jesus in faith. Some people have revelations of God speaking to them, while others don't.

 

[chessman]

How do you explain the existence of many people who have been doing the four big things (you mentioned) for decades, and have struggled to find faith for half of their lives, doing everything they could to seek God, engaging in the Christian community and serving as religious leaders, only to give up and realize that despite all their struggles they simply could not find faith?

How do you know these people where telling the truth, "doing everything they could to find God"?

 

[Edward]

Scripture also says that God hardens random people's hearts so that they cannot bring themselves to do what they should do (Exodus 9:12), and that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled them (John 6:44, John 6:65). I'm starting to believe that God wants certain people to be saved more than He does others. And before you go ahead and say that it wouldn't be fair, let me remind you that He chose a nation to be His own out of all the nations, He liked Abel's offering but didn't like Cain's and He loved Jacob and hated Esau for no mentioned reasons. It's not about being fair according to our standards of morality. It's about Him having created everything, including His Own standards of fairness according to which He decrees His will.

Since when has it been about our standards? We're to not lean upon our understanding. As far as you thinking that God does for some and not others because he is unfair...

Acts 10:34-35
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.../

God doesn't do that. He's the same to everyone.

You didn't answer my questions. That makes it seem as if you're looking for a certain type of answer. Like you've already made up your mind. Anything I tell you, you seem to just shoot it down, as if...you know better, or don't want to believe anything other than what you've already decided on? That's not the right way to go about it Brother. You should study your bible for yourself.