Are there different degrees of punishment in hell?

[FreeGrace]

Well, that's exactly the problem I addressed in my previous posts: some people just don't "hear" The Father in order to come to Jesus in faith.

Those who don't "hear" aren't listening.

Rom 1:19-20 -
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Some people have revelations of God speaking to them, while others don't.

Those who do most likely were listening, per Rom 1:19,20 and were in situations/areas where the gospel is suppressed. Like Arab countries, where large numbers of Muslims have been turning to Christ, based on visions or dreams.

 

[JLB]

Sure. Certainly not before any offenses. And all discipline will be experienced here on earth, before one dies.


I don't believe so. While everyone, saved and unsaved, will be judged based on their works/deeds, it won't be for discipline.

For believers, there will be the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, in 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

For unbelievers, there will be the Great White Throne judgment, in Rev 20:11-15.

For the believer, the judgment will determine eternal reward or loss of rewards. For the unbeliever, the judgment will determine how "tolerable" the lake of fire will be.

We find the teaching on how tolerable or bearable eternity will be for unbelievers from Jesus Himself:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Luke 10:12, 14.

For believers, it would have been better for them not to know the way of righteousness, than to know it, and turn from it back to an immoral lifestyle.

IOW, it will be worse for believers in hell, than for unbelievers.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

We find the teaching on how tolerable or bearable eternity will be for unbelievers from Jesus Himself:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Luke 10:12, 14.

It is better for us to tear out our eye that causes us to sin, than be cast into hell.


Jesus speaking to John -


47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:47-48



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

For believers, it would have been better for them not to know the way of righteousness, than to know it, and turn from it back to an immoral lifestyle.

Very true during this life. Divine discipline from the Lord is "not pleasant, but painful". Heb 12 -
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

IOW, it will be worse for believers in hell, than for unbelievers.

\
"Believers in hell"???? How can that occur?

Let's believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life, which are believers, of course.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The verse is quite clear. Those given eternal life by Jesus, which would be believers only, "shall never perish".

The idea of believers even being in hell goes directly against what Jesus said.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

There is nothing in this passage about hell.

Because of what Jesus promises those He gives eternal life, the "latter end" here being "worse than the beginning" cannot refer to eternity.

If it did, the Bible is internally contradicted and we all might just as well go home and live it up, if that's the case.

It is better for us to tear out our eye that causes us to sin, than be cast into hell.

No believer CAN be cast into hell because Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Jesus speaking to John -

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:47-48
JLB

It seems the Arminian persuasion has a great deal of difficulty understanding figures of speech.

But John 10:28 is clear about those given eternal life: they shall never perish.

Period.

 

[chessman]

For believers, it would have been better for them not to know the way of righteousness, than to know it, and turn from it back to an immoral lifestyle.

IOW, it will be worse for believers in hell, than for unbelievers.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

Can you underline and bold "believers" in 2 Peter 2:20-22??? No.

Or is it simply your anti-OSAS opinion that the "they" Peter speaks of (also called FALSE prophets, FALSE teachers, dogs and sows) are "believers" (to use your word)?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction.​

 

[JLB]

"Believers in hell"???? How can that occur?

Let's believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life, which are believers, of course.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The verse is quite clear. Those given eternal life by Jesus, which would be believers only, "shall never perish".

The idea of believers even being in hell goes directly against what Jesus said.

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:42-47


This was spoken to the Apostle John, and the disciples.

Why teach and warn His disciples, of something that does not pertain to them?

• But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble...

JLB

 

[JLB]

Can you underline and bold "believers" in 2 Peter 2:20-22??? No.

Or is it simply your anti-OSAS opinion that the "they" Peter speaks of (also called FALSE prophets, FALSE teachers, dogs and sows) are "believers" (to use your word)?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction.​

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

The way we escape the corrupting pollutions of this world is to repent and believe.

Believers escape and are cleansed from the pollutions of the world.

Example: a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.


Only believers are washed and cleansed from their past sins.

Context 2 Peter -

For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:9



JLB

 

[chessman]

The way we escape the corrupting pollutions of this world is to repent and believe.

Yep. That is, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins (versus cleansing ourselves with animal blood over and over).
Neither of these (repent and believe/obey) are spoken of in this passage. You had to add it to your notes. Poof! It's not an anti-OSAS passage obviously, then.

For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Yep.
Do you think mere knowledge of who Jesus is and what He's done (His sacrifice) saves? Or is actual repentance and believing in (obeying) required?

Were practicing late 1st Century Jews (who'd heard about Jesus) "saved" each week/year via their animal sacrifes and traditions or were they merely cleansed of those sins they's commited each week/year (returning to mud)?

 

[WIP]

Very true during this life. Divine discipline from the Lord is "not pleasant, but painful"

So if I am understanding your responses to me, you are saying that the discipline we receive will only come during our life here on earth. Tis brings about another question. Does God discipline non-believers?

 

[JLB]

Yep. That is, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins (versus cleansing ourselves with animal blood over and over).
Neither of these (repent and believe/obey) are spoken of in this passage. You had to add it to your notes. Poof! It's not an anti-OSAS passage obviously, then.

More opinion with no scripture nor any discussion of the scripture and it's language we are discussing.

We are not cleansed with animal blood, from our sins, which is the pollutions of the world.

• This is the context of what Peter is teaching, and addressing people who are believers; those of like precious faith.

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:1-11


Peter lays out the things that are our responsibility, to do, to heed, to obey, so that an entrance will be supplied to us into the kingdom of God. That is the context of what 2 Peter 1-2 is discussing.

• as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peter teaches us how we are cleansed and escape the corruptions that is in the world.

• that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4

Same thing he says in the next chapter:

• For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

Please explain why you would think that Peter in the verses from 2 Peter 1& 2 is referring to animal blood.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Yep.
Do you think mere knowledge of who Jesus is and what He's done (His sacrifice) saves? Or is actual repentance and believing in (obeying) required?

Were practicing late 1st Century Jews (who'd heard about Jesus) "saved" each week/year via their animal sacrifes and traditions or were they merely cleansed of those sins they's commited each week/year (returning to mud)?

Peter teaches us how we are cleansed and escape the corruptions that is in the world.

• that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4

Same thing he says in the next chapter:

• For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

Please explain why you would think that Peter in the verses from 2 Peter 1& 2 is referring to animal blood.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:42-47

Why this insistence on trying to find verses to refute what Jesus said in John 10:28? We all know the Bible is NOT internally contradicted or conflicted.

So I repeat; those given eternal life shall never perish.

There was nothing in the verses quoted in your post that teaches that one who has been given eternal life can perish. For any reason.

This was spoken to the Apostle John, and the disciples.

So, who 'spoke' it to them? Jesus. Does it make any sense at all for Jesus to be contradicting Himself? No.

Why teach and warn His disciples, of something that does not pertain to them?

• But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble...JLB

I choose to believe the obvious. That the Bible is not contradicted and that the verses quoted do not refer to anyone who has EVER received eternal life.

Because if that were the case, then Jesus was SORELY contradictory.

But He wasn't, ever.

 

[FreeGrace]

So if I am understanding your responses to me, you are saying that the discipline we receive will only come during our life here on earth. Tis brings about another question. Does God discipline non-believers?

Living apart from God's plan for mankind leads to troubles all of its own. For example, being immoral can lead to all sorts of diseases. And those who catch these diseases certainly suffer for it. But I don't see it as direct divine discipline.

And I'm not aware of any verse or passage that speaks of God disciplining unbelievers. Discipline is for His own children. Heb 12

 

[FreeGrace]

More opinion with no scripture nor any discussion of the scripture and it's language we are discussing.

I find it quite interesting how many times I find this statement in your posts, yet no one has EVER provided any verse that plainly speaks of salvation being lost for any reason.

And John 10:28 specifically prevents such a notion.

So, why do some continue to believe what the Bible doesn't teach?

 

[chessman]

Please explain why you would think that Peter in the verses from 2 Peter 1& 2 is referring to animal blood.

You mean before or after you answer my questions about your previously posted opinions concerning the "they" and "them" of 2 Peter being saved dogs/sows/false prophets (or not)? I mean you quoted my questions, but didn't even bother to answer them. But here they are again:

Do you think mere knowledge of who Jesus is and what He's done (His sacrifice) saves? Or is actual repentance and believing in (obeying) required?

It's been noticed by many (not just me) that you don't actually address tough questions that pose significant challenges to your presented understandings of various passages. So I really don't expect an answer from you to these questions, but maybe you will strengthen your weak case by providing an answer.

I'll answer your question anyway, though. This letter (His second to them) was written by Peter (a Jew) as a reminder of his first, to the Jews who'd been practicing animal sacrifices their whole lives who'd been recently dispersed out of Jerusalem. In them, he's saying the precious blood of Christ is like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb"

2 Peter 3:1-2Lexham English Bible (LEB) 3 Dear friends, this is already the second letter I am writing to you, in both of which I am attempting to stir up your sincere mind by a reminder, 2 to remember the words proclaimed beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,​

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen who are residing temporarily in the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​

Throughout the letters (not just here) Peter is making references to their former animal blood sacrifices, cleansings, priesthoods, etc. Yet shows these new Christians how Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) IS all these things now (only now perfectly so).

14-15, 18-19, 22-24 And you yourselves, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former desires you used to conform to in your ignorance, but as the one who called you is holy, you yourselves be holy in all your conduct, because you know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For “all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the grass. ​

 

[JLB]

You mean before or after you answer my questions about your previously posted opinions concerning the "they" and "them" of 2 Peter being saved dogs/sows/false prophets (or not)? I mean you quoted my questions, but didn't even bother to answer them. But here they are again:

• The text doesn't say false prophets were saved.
• The text says the false message comes from false prophets and false teachers to those who are saved, in an attempt to lead them back into bondage, and being overcome again by sin, by luring them through the lust of the flesh, and through lewdness.

That message is the core of the OSAS message, that teaches people they can live in sin, practicing the works of the flesh, and never repent or confess their sins and be forgiven, and even serve other gods, in which they depart from the faith, yet still somehow remain saved and remain saved... While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;

So we can all review the text and the language of the text, to discern who Peter is referring to, once and for all.

18 For when they [false teacher's] speak great swelling words of emptiness, they [false teacher's] allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped [believer's] from those who live in error. 19 While they [false teacher's] promise them [believer's] liberty, they themselves [false teacher's] are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they [believer's] have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they [believer's] are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them [believer's] not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.[believer's] 22 But it has happened to them [believer's] according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's been noticed by many (not just me) that you don't actually address tough questions that pose significant challenges to your presented understandings of various passages. So I really don't expect an answer from you to these questions, but maybe you will strengthen your weak case by providing an answer.

I'll answer your question anyway, though. This letter (His second to them) was written by Peter (a Jew) as a reminder of his first, to the Jews who'd been practicing animal sacrifices their whole lives who'd been recently dispersed out of Jerusalem. In them, he's saying the precious blood of Christ is like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb"

2 Peter 3:1-2Lexham English Bible (LEB) 3 Dear friends, this is already the second letter I am writing to you, in both of which I am attempting to stir up your sincere mind by a reminder, 2 to remember the words proclaimed beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen who are residing temporarily in the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Throughout the letters (not just here) Peter is making references to their former animal blood sacrifices, cleansings, priesthoods, etc. Yet shows these new Christians how Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) IS all these things now (only now perfectly so).

14-15, 18-19, 22-24 And you yourselves, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former desires you used to conform to in your ignorance, but as the one who called you is holy, you yourselves be holy in all your conduct, because you know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For “all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the grass.

Those who know me, know I cite scripture and discuss scripture and what the scripture actually says, not discussing man's opinion and commentary, which leads to talking in circles.

So that you don't keep proclaim fake and false news about me, I want to make sure to draw your attention to my answer:

• They only way anyone can be saved is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the price He paid for their sins, so that they can be cleansed of their past sins, and reconciled to God.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4


They have to know about the Gospel, from a person who preaches the Gospel.

In order to believe in Jesus Christ, a person must have knowledge of who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done for them.

Example:

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

Receiving the good news, the information from God, the knowledge of Jesus Christ, is how people come to either obey the Gospel or not.


JLB

 

[WIP]

Living apart from God's plan for mankind leads to troubles all of its own. For example, being immoral can lead to all sorts of diseases. And those who catch these diseases certainly suffer for it. But I don't see it as direct divine discipline.

And I'm not aware of any verse or passage that speaks of God disciplining unbelievers. Discipline is for His own children. Heb 12

Are you saying that believers are the only ones that will be disciplined by God for sins in this life and unbelievers will not? Our life is full of trials, tribulation, torture, and even death; especially for a believer. What discipline would one receive from God that would be worse?

Believers and non-believers alike all have troubles in this life that are very similar. Likewise, believers and non-believers alike sometimes have pretty comfortable lives here on this planet. So, what sets God's discipline apart from just plain life's troubles?

 

[chessman]

they [false teacher's] allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped [believer's] from those who live in error.

I notice your transition from "they/them" being "false prophets/ false teachers" (which, BTW, is in the Text) to a "believer"(your word not Peter's even though Peter addresses the dispersion as "you" not "them) is based on the allure of these false prophets' teaching. Odd given you turn right around and say:

They only way anyone can be saved is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the price He paid for their sins, so that they can be cleansed of their past sins, and reconciled to God.

So no repentance from their past sins or belief in Jesus as their Lord or obedience to Jesus as God is required??? [no need to answer].

Is it your position then that these false prophets (the "they" of the passage) actually did lead some to salvation? Or did they (the false prophets) simply lead some to escape those who live in error, as the Text says?

They [sic] only way anyone can be saved is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the price He paid for their sins, so that they can be cleansed of their past sins, and reconciled to God.

 

[chessman]

They have to know about the Gospel, from a person who preaches the Gospel.

Do fase teachers preach the Gospel?
Do they need to repent and believe/obey the Gosoel?

 

[chessman]

The text says the false message comes from false prophets and false teachers to those who are saved,

Again, the Text of 2 Peter 2 doesn't say anything about believers or "those who are saved". You have to change the "they/them" of the Text which even you admit is Peter referring to false prophets to 'saved' 'believers' (your words, not Peter's), mid-sentence as you demonstrated in order to come to that conclusion.