Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[MarkT]

I'm sorry, but not all Jews were of the sect of either religious party Jesus mentioned. Why do you hate the Jews so deeply that you would paint an entire nation with the same brush.

Have you heard of Hellel? Or what of Shammai? Do you know anything about either of them? Jesus did, and he was asked numerous times about them. I never recall Jesus bad mouthi g either.

Unless they believe in Jesus Christ, what difference does it make?

 

[jasonc]

Unless they believe in Jesus Christ, what difference does it make?

paul was there disciple as gammelel is the son of hillel who restored the law properly in the temple. the Pharisees killed all of the priests Herod put in place. this was before He came. Paul didn't forget all that he was taught but as lead by Holy Spirit he used it to teach others. if you really learn from a Jewish view this is easily seen. Peter isn't a rabbi, Paul was and that is how Paul approaches things. its not a sin those days to be kosher , as its not today. its not required either. we would derail the thread on shalom and how paul says that his greetings.

 

[MarkT]

The onus is on MarkT to prove with scripture the absolute they claim about Emmanuel. That Emmanuel was not a Jew.

Proceed MarkT. Or retract the inference and accept the scriptures as written. Both old and new testaments.

Sorry. But the burden of proof is on you. Was Jesus a Jew in spirit? Did his teaching come from God, or did he teach the traditions of men?

 

[MarkT]

paul was there disciple as gammelel is the son of hillel who restored the law properly in the temple. the Pharisees killed all of the priests Herod put in place. this was before He came. Paul didn't forget all that he was taught but as lead by Holy Spirit he used it to teach others. if you really learn from a Jewish view this is easily seen. Peter isn't a rabbi, Paul was and that is how Paul approaches things. its not a sin those days to be kosher , as its not today. its not required either. we would derail the thread on shalom and how paul says that his greetings.

Does this come from you or from your teachers?

 

[jasonc]

Does this come from you or from your teachers?

messianic jews I know say that. I know one that would but he isn't interested debating but using the tanach. brit chadosh to reach jews and wont waste time on argumentiveness. he is in isreal and comes to America and also teaches Hebrew to all that want to learn. he isn't the only one. I am a saved Jew. should I then deny what was given to my people first and not also see what my family missed from their angle. or should I just only know the new testament. Paul was a Pharisee and also wasn't a schmuck he was very well instructed a Pharisee of the Pharisee. all Jews at bar mitzvah, which they did then. were to know the Pentateuch and the basics.

Paul being seen as one who was more serious with his torah was selected to become a rabbi. he went astray of course. but the new testament let alone acts wasn't written when he repented. it was all oral accounts of the cross with the tanach. Jewish John and peter went into the temple to pray. why would they visit the temple if it wasn't tolerated. surely when you prayed there you offered an atonement and had to have a priest at the time of prayer. stove bolts will know how that works as he taught exodus and studied far more then me.

paul also atoned and took a nazarite vow to reach the Jews. he wasn't an uneducated Hebrew as he was free born roman and had citizenship and could read and write In greek and Hebrew. if notice he is never referred to as unlearned. he does see that being a Pharisee pails to the cross but God didn't say go forget the accounts of moses( the church didn't have to re teach all that ,just point him to the cross from those stories)

 

[banded butterfly]

Sorry. But the burden of proof is on you. Was Jesus a Jew in spirit? Did his teaching come from God, or did he teach the traditions of men?

You are mistaken. You intimated that Jesus was not a Jew. Prove it.

 

[jasonc]

stove would love it we went into the idea of paradise and what Jews say and what Jesus says. they do agree in parts.

to him who overcometh shall I give the right to sit me with in the garden. in Judaism that is gan eden.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Jesus asked this question, What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” The Pharisees said, "the son of David"

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
till I put thy enemies under thy feet’?

45 If David thus calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did any one dare to ask him any more questions. Mt. 22: 41-45

So here Jesus is saying the Christ is not David's son because David himself calls him Lord.

Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and God was his Father. To say he was a Jew is to bring him down to our level. But it is written in the prophets, "And they shall be taught by God." To say he was a Jew is to subject him to their authority. But in fact the Father gave him all authority in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

'The King of the Jews' is what the Jews charged him with saying. John 19:20-22 But Jesus said, "My kingship is not of this world"

"Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” 37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” John 18:33-38

Jesus was the Son of God; conceived by the Spirit of God, and not of this world.

hello MarkT, dirtfarmer here

The thing that has you confused is that Jesus Christ was 100% human and also 100% God. So it was his humanity that was Jewish, not his divinity.

 

[MarkT]

You are mistaken. You intimated that Jesus was not a Jew. Prove it.

Can't prove a negative. First of all what is a Jew? Isn't Judaism a religion? Was Jesus a Jew?

Did Jesus follow the traditions of the Jews? Did he approve their teaching?

Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Mt. 23:29-33

Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets!

 

[markathome]

Was-Adam-creation-condemned-cause-adam-sin-or-innocent-at-creation?
Was-Eve--creation-condemned-cause-eve-sin-or-innocent-at-creation?
Was-Jesus-born-condemned-with-adams-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Was-Jesus-born-condemned-with-eve's-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Are-we----born-condemned-with-adams-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Are-we----born-condemned-with-eve's-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Are-we----born-condemned-cause-sex-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Are-we----born-condemned-cause-sex-sin-or-innocent-at-birth?
Was-Jesus-born-Not-condemned-cause-sex-sin-AND-innocent-at-birth-cause-virgin-birth?
Was Jesus born innocent or not?
If we are innocent at birth then why a virgin birth for?

 

[MarkT]

hello MarkT, dirtfarmer here

The thing that has you confused is that Jesus Christ was 100% human and also 100% God. So it was his humanity that was Jewish, not his divinity.

Normally I would let it go, but we were talking about Jewish thinking. So I said bringing Jewish scholarship into Christianity is not a good idea. It becomes story telling. So they're saying Jesus was a story teller like they are.

 

[jasonc]

Ugh,Christianity is a religion.

When Jesus came ,the law of Moses was in effect, he fulflled not destroyed it.

 

[jasonc]

I hope you don't use the bible based on the Jewish masoretic text as that name means oral .it's a borrowed old testament.written by jews for jews who didn't buy unto the oral traditions and all of jewry uses it.my chumash uses it

 

[stovebolts]

Unless they believe in Jesus Christ, what difference does it make?

Your sidestepping the issue.
You quoted Jesus saying something to a specific set of people as a response to a Jewish article that was posted.
You cannot prove that the article was associated with either group.
As a result, your use of sacred scripture was innapropriate.
If you are not willing to handle scripture in an appropriate manner by being accountabl for it's use and application, but instead sidestep the issue as not to admit your wrong doing, well then, only folly will follow.

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry. But the burden of proof is on you. Was Jesus a Jew in spirit? Did his teaching come from God, or did he teach the traditions of men?

Not all traditions of men are bad.

 

[stovebolts]

Normally I would let it go, but we were talking about Jewish thinking. So I said bringing Jewish scholarship into Christianity is not a good idea. It becomes story telling. So they're saying Jesus was a story teller like they are.

Ha, are you serious?
Parables are stories with intent.... just saying lol!

 

[jasonc]

Ha, are you serious?
Parables are stories with intent.... just saying lol!

Pastors do this

 

[stovebolts]

Pastors do this

Yes, some pastors are great story tellers. Some times it takes a pastor to help us misunderstand the plain meaning of a passage.

 

[WIP]

Closing for review.